Sports Card DAO

[maniac_73]

Not sure how many are familiar with the concept of DAO(Decentralized Autonomous Organizations) but they are basically a group chat with a bank account that uses the blockchain for transparency. Recently a group crated a DAO and raised 47 Million to bid on the US constitution. DAO’s allow people who buy tokens to be able to vote on the actions of the group without a hierarchy or traditional management model. Everyone has a voice and reaps the rewards.
Anyone here interested in starting a Sports card DAO to create a basket of high end vintage cards as a fractional investment?
Basically the way Rally and Collectible work but the owners of the DAO are everyone who invests and not a central person controlling a company.
Here’s a couple of Articles on DAO’s and the potential benefits.

https://www.macobserver.com/link/what-is-a-dao/

https://www.ft.com/content/c4b6d38d-...c-7b5cf8f0cea6


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[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

An interesting concept. I'd like to think about this a bit before responding. I'm slightly intrigued...

[skelly423]

Respectfully, that is the last thing I would ever invest in. I understand enough about crypto and blockchain to know it’s a con, and I don’t want any part of it.

[maniac_73]

Originally Posted by skelly423

Respectfully, that is the last thing I would ever invest in. I understand enough about crypto and blockchain to know it’s a con, and I don’t want any part of it.

Lol ok


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[maniac_73]

Originally Posted by Dead-Ball-Hitter

An interesting concept. I'd like to think about this a bit before responding. I'm slightly intrigued...

I’m still doing my research on it as well. Fractional ownership has always intrigued me but I was never comfortable with the concept of a company having the final say without transparency. What I like about DAO’s is that the community has the authority in what to do with the investment and there’s full transparency with the blockchain records.
Still early days on DAO’s but so many exciting possibility’s with the technology.


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[RL]

easy pass for me

[Leon]

This has to do with the block chain. I am not a crypto person. IF that is what folks want to do, more power to them. Have fun. I like my cards in hand...
.

[x2drich2000]

So without a central entity in charge, who takes physical possession of the asset? Who is responsible for up keep and handling (i.e. insurance, handling sales, organizing owners wishes, proposing when to sell, etc)? Maybe I'm missing something or just don't understand the relationship between the physical and electronic tracking, but seems like it would be an easy way for someone to just disappear with the items.

[maniac_73]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

So without a central entity in charge, who takes physical possession of the asset? Who is responsible for up keep and handling (i.e. insurance, handling sales, organizing owners wishes, proposing when to sell, etc)? Maybe I'm missing something or just don't understand the relationship between the physical and electronic tracking, but seems like it would be an easy way for someone to just disappear with the items.

The practice would be to propose and vote on this using the community discord based on the proposals made within the group. Everything is put to a vote and all members vote based on the rules set out in the terms of reference. In theory it’s a complete transparent democracy which is what makes it attractive because the owners have the power.


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[maniac_73]

Originally Posted by Leon

This has to do with the block chain. I am not a crypto person. IF that is what folks want to do, more power to them. Have fun. I like my cards in hand...
.

As a hobbyist, I also like to have cards in hand. As an investor, I’ve seen the returns over time of high end blue chip vintage cards and it’s a great alternative asset to have as part of ur overall investment portfolio.


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[Fred]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

So without a central entity in charge, who takes physical possession of the asset? Who is responsible for up keep and handling (i.e. insurance, handling sales, organizing owners wishes, proposing when to sell, etc)? Maybe I'm missing something or just don't understand the relationship between the physical and electronic tracking, but seems like it would be an easy way for someone to just disappear with the items.

I was wondering the same thing.

How does someone "buy in" to this? Does this require the potential investor to have a source of crypto currency to obtain the shares of the card board block chain? How does someone "cash out"? The assumption would be that the payout would be in some type of crypto currency. If, for example, you paid in Bitcoin to enter, would you get paid back in Bitcoin when you decided to sell or would the seller have to accept any crypto currency currently being traded in the crypto market, for example Dogecoin.

If played correctly, the person that starts this anonymous chain could say they own a card (which is physical) and not really own it. Is that a possibility?

Sounds like a possible card board Ponzi scheme.

Please, by all means, educate me on this - I'm an ignorant naysayer that could use a little more understanding of this potential investment vehicle.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Fred

I was wondering the same thing.

How does someone "buy in" to this? Does this require the potential investor to have a source of crypto currency to obtain the shares of the card board block chain? How does someone "cash out"? The assumption would be that the payout would be in some type of crypto currency. If, for example, you paid in Bitcoin to enter, would you get paid back in Bitcoin when you decided to sell or would the seller have to accept any crypto currency currently being traded in the crypto market, for example Dogecoin.

If played correctly, the person that starts this anonymous chain could say they own a card (which is physical) and not really own it. Is that a possibility?

Sounds like a possible card board Ponzi scheme.

Please, by all means, educate me on this - I'm an ignorant naysayer that could use a little more understanding of this potential investment vehicle.

Will there be an open marketplace where buyers and sellers can easily buy and sell their fractional shares? It is too complicated for my simple brain, so I will pass.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Even though the DAO for the constitution didn't pan out (they publicized their top bid allowing for an easy snipe), I think we'll see many more of these in the future. The blockchain has so much potential for diversified investment (including NFT's where artists can monetize works without middlemen). I haven't participated in any Collectable offerings but they have had a bunch of successful deals. As a collector, I too like to have my preciouses in hand so I can gollum over them but can see a place to have a fractional ownership/investment in certain big historical/expensive pieces.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Will there be an open marketplace where buyers and sellers can easily buy and sell their fractional shares? It is too complicated for my simple brain, so I will pass.

And having the brain I have, I wonder about visitation rights, and whether conjugal visits will be on the table.

Brian

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Will there be an open marketplace where buyers and sellers can easily buy and sell their fractional shares? It is too complicated for my simple brain, so I will pass.

John, did you really mean to say:

"An open marketplace where buyers and sellers can easily buy and sell their fractional shares, will there be? Too complicated for my simple brain, it is, So I will pass."

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

Even though the DAO for the constitution didn't pan out (they publicized their top bid allowing for an easy snipe), I think we'll see many more of these in the future.

LOL, auction houses wish everybody would publicize their top bids. That was basically a $20 million shill bid.

I can't possibly see how this could be taken advantage of.

[maniac_73]

Originally Posted by Fred

I was wondering the same thing.

How does someone "buy in" to this? Does this require the potential investor to have a source of crypto currency to obtain the shares of the card board block chain? How does someone "cash out"? The assumption would be that the payout would be in some type of crypto currency. If, for example, you paid in Bitcoin to enter, would you get paid back in Bitcoin when you decided to sell or would the seller have to accept any crypto currency currently being traded in the crypto market, for example Dogecoin.

If played correctly, the person that starts this anonymous chain could say they own a card (which is physical) and not really own it. Is that a possibility?

Sounds like a possible card board Ponzi scheme.

Please, by all means, educate me on this - I'm an ignorant naysayer that could use a little more understanding of this potential investment vehicle.

Good questions!
With a DAO, you "buy in" with the token thats offered which may be in the form of a coin or even an NFT. This gives you voting power 1 token = 1 vote.

There is no "owner" as everyone who owns tokens are considered owners and every proposal is voted on with the results recorded on the smart contract on the blockchain which are transparent and unalterable. The group decides by vote what to buy and when to sell and how the profits would be paid out to coin holders. The group also decides how to procure and where to store the item through proposals and votes. The idea is that proposals are put forward and they are voted on by all the token holders.

To put it simply, this is the exact model Collectible(the fractional ownership platform) is currently using but instead of the owners of Collectible running the show, this is the cooperative effort of all the participants deciding what to do using the transparency of the blockchain.

Some more info on hows DAO's work
https://consensys.net/blog/blockchai...-do-they-work/

[Vegas Cards]

I know everyone loves PWCC, couldn't you pair this with their vault?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by maniac_73

Good questions!
With a DAO, you "buy in" with the token thats offered which may be in the form of a coin or even an NFT. This gives you voting power 1 token = 1 vote.

There is no "owner" as everyone who owns tokens are considered owners and every proposal is voted on with the results recorded on the smart contract on the blockchain which are transparent and unalterable. The group decides by vote what to buy and when to sell and how the profits would be paid out to coin holders. The group also decides how to procure and where to store the item through proposals and votes. The idea is that proposals are put forward and they are voted on by all the token holders.

To put it simply, this is the exact model Collectible(the fractional ownership platform) is currently using but instead of the owners of Collectible running the show, this is the cooperative effort of all the participants deciding what to do using the transparency of the blockchain.

Some more info on hows DAO's work
https://consensys.net/blog/blockchai...-do-they-work/

It may work for some but this is just not the way I see me going. I value real live things. Have you ever tried to flip a Non Fungible Token?

.

[BobbyStrawberry]

I see some major potential problems, but I'm interested to learn more.

Can you lay out the scenario a bit further that you have in mind? People get together and a create a "basket" of vintage cards, and then what? How would people make money, and why would it be better than operating individually with actual cards?

[BabyRuth]

Just sounds like another modern headache. "I wouldn't touch that with a thirty nine and a half foot pole." - Dr. Seuss

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Vegas Cards

I know everyone loves PWCC, couldn't you pair this with their vault?

This is what I figured. It sounds interesting.

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[todeen]

Originally Posted by maniac_73

Good questions!

With a DAO, you "buy in" with the token thats offered which may be in the form of a coin or even an NFT. This gives you voting power 1 token = 1 vote.



There is no "owner" as everyone who owns tokens are considered owners and every proposal is voted on with the results recorded on the smart contract on the blockchain which are transparent and unalterable. The group decides by vote what to buy and when to sell and how the profits would be paid out to coin holders. The group also decides how to procure and where to store the item through proposals and votes. The idea is that proposals are put forward and they are voted on by all the token holders.



To put it simply, this is the exact model Collectible(the fractional ownership platform) is currently using but instead of the owners of Collectible running the show, this is the cooperative effort of all the participants deciding what to do using the transparency of the blockchain.



Some more info on hows DAO's work

https://consensys.net/blog/blockchai...-do-they-work/

The article explanation sounds like a mutual fund. Contracts lay out the rules, I join by giving my money for a share, and I receive voting rights to vote for a manager. There are incentives in a mutual fund to be a part of it. Obviously there are slight differences, but with the contract there are legal ramifications. What lawyer among Net54 members would set up the contract?

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[doug.goodman]

I wish all of you who "invest" a happy new year.

Doug

[Peter_Spaeth]

The US Constitution is for sale??

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The US Constitution is for sale??

For only 43M

https://www.cnn.com/style/article/us...ale/index.html

,

[BobC]

Why does this have to involve a blockchain? You could simply form an LLC and have people put in cash and vote on what they want done and what/when to buy and sell.

Personally, if I own some collectible, I'd want to actually have and hold it in my personal collection, not say to someone I own .000001% of say a T206 Wagner, and then just show them an online image of one I can claim to own a piece of. That isn't collecting, that is investing. And quite frankly, given all the drama and known issues in this hobby, especially the allegations and rumors surrounding many of the dealers, AHs, TPGs, and card doctors/restorers that work in and around it, I'm not so sure this is the proper vehicle to use and rely on for long term investment purposes for most people.

The investment/stock markets are protected by specific laws, and groups like the SEC. Advisors and sellers of typical investment products (stocks, bonds, etc.) generally have to be trained, licensed and are subject to independent oversight. They all have to abide by similar rules and standards that they do not simply decide upon and set themselves. Even the opinions given on a publicly traded company's financial statements can only be rendered by completely independent CPAs/CPA firms, using a single, unique set of established standards that ALL CPAs and CPA firms have to explicitly follow, all CPAs must engage in ongoing professional education every year to maintain their licenses, and also every CPA firm rendering such opinions must allow others from the industry to periodically come in and review their records, systems, and work to ensure they are abiding by the strict rules and standards set for them to render their opinions. Meanwhile, try going and asking a TPG why in their opinion your card only got a 3 instead of a 4 grade, or why one TPG's opinion on a card can be so different from another's. You can't get TPGs to consistently agree to one set of grading standards among themselves, and exactly what training and education do TPG graders even have to go through? And the value of investments, such as stocks, should be based solely on the attributes and financials of the underlying company who's shares are being bought and sold, not also somewhat affected by or even partially dependent upon which CPA firm rendered an opinion on that company's financial statement. So if we are going to be forced to treat cards like investments, shouldn't their value also be based solely on the underlying attributes and condition of the cards, and not affected whatsoever by which TPG graded and rendered an opinion on them? That makes sense to me!

So, it would also seem to me that if we are really going to have our hobby turned into an investment vehicle, whether we like/want it or not, we should start making sure that more appropriate rules, regulations, consistent standards, and oversight of those in and servicing are hobby....errr, investment industry, are being enacted and put in place. Otherwise, we're all just potential marks to be taken advantage of at some point by those that seem to be currently controlling and running our hobby. But honestly, it is probably way too late for the actual collectors/hobbyists to have any hopes of ever reigning in the individuals and companies currently controlling and running things, and simply more interested in lining their pockets. One can always hope though...............

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Leon

For only 43M

https://www.cnn.com/style/article/us...ale/index.html

,

A copy of......this ain't a Nic Cage movie.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The US Constitution is for sale??

Aren't pretty much all politicians for sale? So why not the Constitution?

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by BobC

Aren't pretty much all politicians for sale? So why not the Constitution?

Because the writers envisioned something different for the future, and it isn't the pile of dog turds in government today, that's why not the Constitution.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Because the writers envisioned something different for the future, and it isn't the pile of dog turds in government today, that's why not the Constitution.

I was joking, at least about my second question.....did you not see the smiley face?

[notfast]

I can’t think of much else I’d want to do less than something like this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by notfast

I can’t think of much else I’d want to do less than something like this.

Yah, what could possibly go wrong in a sportscard buying syndicate?

[JollyElm]

If fractional shares can be had for less based on OC, PD and ST qualifiers attached to them, then I am in!!

[Lorewalker]

So I get the part where we all get the privilege of paying for fractional ownership but as has been asked numerous times, which of the fractional owners takes possession of the card? If there is truly no central person or persons controlling the company who takes possession and assures the safety of the card?

Seems very sketchy to me and fraught with potential for threats of litigation but at the least lots of disagreements and disappointments. Hard enough to be in accord with a spouse imagine how many disgruntled owners there will be in situation like this?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

So I get the part where we all get the privilege of paying for fractional ownership but as has been asked numerous times, which of the fractional owners takes possession of the card? If there is truly no central person or persons controlling the company who takes possession and assures the safety of the card?

Seems very sketchy to me and fraught with potential for threats of litigation but at the least lots of disagreements and disappointments. Hard enough to be in accord with a spouse imagine how many disgruntled owners there will be in situation like this?

Who decides what to buy and what to pay, or when and what to sell, and through what venue, and for how much? I wouldn't be comfortable delegating all that control to someone and at the same time if everyone votes on everything it would seem unworkable.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yah, what could possibly go wrong in a sportscard buying syndicate?

laughing all the way...!

Peter - I think the idea is to have liquidity for the fractional ownership. You can buy/sell the fractional ownership but the goal is to make sure you're not the last group holding the fractional ownership if/when the cardboard Ponzi scheme collapses.

Ok, I shouldn't call it a cardboard Ponzi scheme because I'm ignorant to the innerworkings of this type of "investment". However, I don't want any part of it unless I'm on the ground floor when the fractional ownership is being purchased so that I can sell my fractional shares at a profit and can spend those profits on cardboard that I can hold in my hands. Either that or be voted the dude that holds on to the asset.

[maniac_73]

Originally Posted by Leon

It may work for some but this is just not the way I see me going. I value real live things. Have you ever tried to flip a Non Fungible Token?

.

I did quite well with nba top shot last year. I knew it was a speculative bubble and sold high before it all crashed


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[maniac_73]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

I see some major potential problems, but I'm interested to learn more.

Can you lay out the scenario a bit further that you have in mind? People get together and a create a "basket" of vintage cards, and then what? How would people make money, and why would it be better than operating individually with actual cards?

Much like the other fractional platforms, the group would vote on what to buy and when to sell and the profits could either be put into the treasury to buy more cards/memorabilia or distributed as dividends to the groups all based on what is decided by the voting process .


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[Fred]

For clarification:

If the price of the asset increases, does the price of the "token" increase with the asset increase?

The assumption is that the "token" can be purchased or sold at anytime and the value of the "token" is set by the voting "token" holders. Is that correct?

How long does it typically take to buy/sell a token? An assumption is that there needs to be a "market" (buyers/sellers) of the "token" in order to transact and if there is nobody willing to purchase the "token", then you're just stuck with it. Is that about right?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by maniac_73

Much like the other fractional platforms, the group would vote on what to buy and when to sell and the profits could either be put into the treasury to buy more cards/memorabilia or distributed as dividends to the groups all based on what is decided by the voting process .


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So under that structure, why would I trust my money to the collective (or majority) wisdom of this group? Presumably it would attract people with substantial means but having a lot of money doesn't guarantee anything about being a good card investor.

PS wasn't Evan Mathis involved in some venture like this except with more centralized decisionmaking?

[jingram058]

What a total bunch of BS baloney.

[maniac_73]

Originally Posted by jingram058

What a total bunch of BS baloney.

Ok


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[maniac_73]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So under that structure, why would I trust my money to the collective (or majority) wisdom of this group? Presumably it would attract people with substantial means but having a lot of money doesn't guarantee anything about being a good card investor.

PS wasn't Evan Mathis involved in some venture like this except with more centralized decisionmaking?

No guarantees with any investment and if someone does give u a guarantee u gotta run lol. The idea with this is that the collective are smart investors. For example a sports card DAO can be done on an invite only basis to high end collectors to make sure that there is good decision making vs opening it to the general public

Not sure which one Mathis was involved but there are a few centralized ones right now that don’t have any transparency


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[maniac_73]

Originally Posted by Fred

For clarification:

If the price of the asset increases, does the price of the "token" increase with the asset increase?

The assumption is that the "token" can be purchased or sold at anytime and the value of the "token" is set by the voting "token" holders. Is that correct?

How long does it typically take to buy/sell a token? An assumption is that there needs to be a "market" (buyers/sellers) of the "token" in order to transact and if there is nobody willing to purchase the "token", then you're just stuck with it. Is that about right?

Pretty much correct except the value of the token is set by the market and how much someone is willing to pay. If the DAO takes off and has a great portfolio, theoretically the value should go up.
This is assuming it’s a public DAO. If it’s a private DAO that’s invite only, the collective decides on the rules of how/when tokens can be resold


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by maniac_73

No guarantees with any investment and if someone does give u a guarantee u gotta run lol. The idea with this is that the collective are smart investors. For example a sports card DAO can be done on an invite only basis to high end collectors to make sure that there is good decision making vs opening it to the general public

Not sure which one Mathis was involved but there are a few centralized ones right now that don’t have any transparency


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I can imagine though that a group of high powered guys would not easily come to a consensus. And I don't know how many transactions you're contemplating but it seems as a practical matter you wouldn't want too many, I mean are you going to convene a zoom call every time a catalogue comes out?

[maniac_73]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I can imagine though that a group of high powered guys would not easily come to a consensus.

They wouldn’t have a choice. They vote on the proposals and if the proposal reaches a predetermined threshold also voted on the group during the governance process, it passes.
The debates before the vote would be interesting though. I’d pay just to be a fly on the wall in one of those.

All communication takes place on a Discord Server which is like a permanent chat room so you don’t need to set up a formal call.
When setting up a DAO, best practice dictates creating a terms of reference on how to create and put forward proposals and debate them before a formal vote.


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[Leon]

Originally Posted by maniac_73

I did quite well with nba top shot last year. I knew it was a speculative bubble and sold high before it all crashed


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Flipping a card for any money isn't what I was referring to.
Google ..Flipping cards in the early 20th century..

[maniac_73]

Originally Posted by Leon

Flipping a card for any money isn't what I was referring to.
Google ..Flipping cards in the early 20th century..

Oh Haha! I’m 41 I flipped as a kid lol


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Out of my league, but DISCORD server seems an ironic name.

Interesting topic, I guess my principal concern would be I don't think having a lot of money always translates into investing wisdom in the card world; from what I've seen guys with a lot of money often just pay what it takes to win and are not very sophisticated or price savvy about it.