SGC card returned as likely trimmed. Help me understand.

[luciobar1980]

Hey there. First off, I know this isn't pre-war but given this question would really be applicable to any card I thought it would be ok to post here to get more eyes on it.

I submitted this card to SGC a few months ago. At the time I checked the both to NOT slab the card if found to be altered. Now, looking at the card, I thought this was a clear case of mouse chew: the edge of the tear is jagged, doesn't look like someone "cut" or trimmed it. So, it came back unslabbed and "likely trimmed". Why? If this is indeed mouse chew why would they consider that trimming? I measured the card against other 56s and it measures as big or bigger than any i have, and the edges really don't look trimmed. I would find that hard to believe that this card is trimmed in the usual sense. So why wouldn't this grade a 1? Do they consider a mouse chewing on a card as "altered" vs just damaged? Makes no sense to me.

[bobbyw8469]

You just stated you asked to NOT have the card slabbed if authentic only. I hate to say it, but that card is not ever worthy of being a '1'. Authentic only would be the only route to take....which you said you didn't want.

[luciobar1980]

Ok, well I guess that answers my question. In my mind a "1" was always the bare minimum that any card could grade as long as it was not altered? I guess though, the more I think about it that doesn't make sense as you could have a card missing even more than what my card is missing, and at what point do you draw the line.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

Ok, well I guess that answers my question. In my mind a "1" was always the bare minimum that any card could grade as long as it was not altered? I guess though, the more I think about it that doesn't make sense as you could have a card missing even more than what my card is missing, and at what point do you draw the line.

The card needs to be square. Yes, it can be creased all to hell.....but if there are a chunk of card missing where it is no longer having an outline, then you won't get a grade. For example, there was an absolute beauty of a 1954 Hank Aaron rookie card in last Weds HUggins and Scott auction. It was missing a corner. Around the size of a nickle.....totally gone. That card would be authentic only as well....and I would love to have had it. I hate that you wasted your money like that, but that was the obviously outcome. You should have gotten it slabbed.

[NiceDocter]

Are you sure someone didn’t try to “even it up “ by slightly trimming the area around the P on the hat? Can’t tell from that one picture…. not that it would change much … it’s an Altered Authentic card… still pretty cool.

[luciobar1980]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

The card needs to be square. Yes, it can be creased all to hell.....but if there are a chunk of card missing where it is no longer having an outline, then you won't get a grade. For example, there was an absolute beauty of a 1954 Hank Aaron rookie card in last Weds HUggins and Scott auction. It was missing a corner. Around the size of a nickle.....totally gone. That card would be authentic only as well....and I would love to have had it. I hate that you wasted your money like that, but that was the obviously outcome. You should have gotten it slabbed.

Yeah, total waste of money.

See, that wasn't clear to me and still doesn't really make sense to me in my mind. It's sort of a gray area to me. Where does it say a missing piece automatically makes the card ungradeable?

Here's 2 extreme examples:

a) You have an absolutely pristine card except it's missing a corner, nice and evenly cut. That card is ungradeable

b) you have a "complete" card that has been creased to hell, run over, dirty. This card is gradeable?

I dunno, it seems sort of arbitrary to me.

[luciobar1980]

Originally Posted by NiceDocter

Are you sure someone didn’t try to “even it up “ by slightly trimming the area around the P on the hat? Can’t tell from that one picture…. not that it would change much … it’s an Altered Authentic card… still pretty cool.

I dunno, I don't think so. It seems unlikely to me a human had anything to do with the missing area, but who knows.

Anyways, it seems that is irrelevant based on what Robert has said.

[Casey2296]

Heres an example of a corner cut, will never be more than an "A", which your Clemente would get.
_

[luciobar1980]

So, if I'm understanding correctly if a card is too beat up, even if it has all its "parts" , it's possible that that card could still not be worthy of a 1. I guess that makes sense. It sounds then it's not really a question of the missing piece, necessarily, but that the card just falls under the threshold of what a 1 can be.

Am I making sense?

In other words, if I take a nice 56 topps card, crumble it up in my hands.. even if that card is complete that doesn't mean it will or should grade a 1.

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

In other words, if I take a nice 56 topps card, crumble it up in my hands.. even if that card is complete that doesn't mean it will or should grade a 1.

I think it would grade a "1" as its complete. Your card is not complete a lot of the top border has been removed. .i.e it is "altered"

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

I think it would grade a "1" as its complete. Your card is not complete a lot of the top border has been removed. .i.e it is "altered"

+1 agreed

Also remember a lot of people by the Card not the grade.

I have seen “authentic” graded cards sell for more then some ones and two’s because the eye appeal of the card

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

I dunno, it seems sort of arbitrary to me.

You paid for an opinion, and opinions are arbitrary.

From the interwebs :

o·pin·ion
/əˈpinyən/
noun
a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

NOT NECESSARILY BASE ON FACT OR KNOWLEDGE

[luciobar1980]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

You paid for an opinion, and opinions are arbitrary.

From the interwebs :

o·pin·ion
/əˈpinyən/
noun
a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

NOT NECESSARILY BASE ON FACT OR KNOWLEDGE

Thanks for taking time to point that out.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

Thanks for taking time to point that out.

You may have inspired SGC to make a new designation. "MSCHW".

[Snapolit1]

Totally sympathize with OP. There are more unwritten rules for grading companies than there is in baseball days. Here is a graded card that is not a complete border. Admittedly the missing piece is not large. But it ain't a complete border.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/11256655995...YAAOSwCbtZvcq1

I always assume that if you had the rattiest ass looking card imaginable it would get a 1 or a 10 assuming (a) it was a genuine version of what it was purporting to be and (b) there was no evidence that someone deliberately manipulated it.

[Mutton Chop Yaz]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Totally sympathize with OP. There are more unwritten rules for grading companies than there is in baseball days. Here is a graded card that is not a complete border. Admittedly the missing piece is not large. But it ain't a complete border.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/11256655995...YAAOSwCbtZvcq1

I always assume that if you had the rattiest ass looking card imaginable it would get a 1 or a 10 assuming it was what it was purporting to be and there was no evidence that someone deliberately manipulated it.

Perhaps they make allowances for 1914 Cracker Jacks, perhaps there's a new standard (my Wagner below was graded in 2015 and subsequently re-slabbed), or perhaps there's another explanation. But, on a purely intuitive, "know it when I see it" level, I wouldn't expect a card missing as much cardboard as Lucio's Clemente to receive anything other than an A.

I also second the proposed new "MSCHW" designation!

[Fred]

I hate to say this but grading is "subjective".

On that particular day, the card the grader "Authentic" and it was not, in the graders humble/useless opinion, deserving of a numerical grade, that day.

If another grader was tasked to grade it or if that same grader reviewed it on another day, then it may have received a "1'.

When TPGs provide numerical grades to cards that have the bottom trimmed (for example, Zeenuts or Redman), then pretty much anything goes.

We can always fall back on the first PSA graded card, right?

When I used to send cards in for grading, I would let them know to encapsulate it, even if it was going to get the dreaded "A" because if I took the time to send it in, then it was worth having the protection of the slab.

As to the TRM - who ever trimmed the OPS card did a lousy job.

[hcv123]

1) There are plenty of cards out there missing parts with number grades (none that I've seen missing anywhere close to as much as yours). 2 highlighted in this thread already - anyone else have any handy?

2) Grading company guidelines have been a moving target for some time now with some very seemingly random decisions - one of my favorites - cards with paper loss get number grades (I've seen them up to 5's - take a look at T205's), but cards with staple holes (even though there is arguably a greater % of card there than some with paper loss) get automatic 1's

3) Specific to your issue - SGC sent back a sticker on which was printed "TRM" - presume that means Trimmed? Why not "A"? Or nothing? You raised a fair question about what exactly does "TRM" mean?

4) Problem specific to SGC - They DON'T differentiate between "Authentic" - ie. a card that has not been doctored, but for a defined reason does not qualify for a numeric grade and "Authentic Altered" - a card that appears to have been "doctored" in some way. Everything just gets an "A" - VERY confusing

[bobbyw8469]

[bobbyw8469]

Corners are hit or miss. Depends on how much of the corner is gone (percentage wise). No offense to the OP, but his card is missing quite a bit. It was impossible to get a number grade.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

Yeah, total waste of money.

See, that wasn't clear to me and still doesn't really make sense to me in my mind. It's sort of a gray area to me. Where does it say a missing piece automatically makes the card ungradeable?

Here's 2 extreme examples:

a) You have an absolutely pristine card except it's missing a corner, nice and evenly cut. That card is ungradeable

b) you have a "complete" card that has been creased to hell, run over, dirty. This card is gradeable?

I dunno, it seems sort of arbitrary to me.

Welcome to the world of grading!

[GRock]

Here's one I have had since the 80's. Never really thought of wasting money on grading it just wondered if it would even be an "A". A neatly trimmed top edge with some tape to reinstall.

[jchcollins]

To make sense of some of these seemingly silly and arbitrary decisions that professional graders make, you have to understand the history of grading and how it evolved within the hobby. The standards that a PSA or SGC generally use today are a carefully constructed and heavily modified heirloom of the way things were done originally in the 1970's and even earlier, with some totally new and random things added in that somehow survived the cut. The original MO for graders like PSA was to "set standards" and therefore prevent opinion swings between dealers and hobbyists, and to cut out a lot of alteration that was rampant in the hobby at the time. 30 years on, well yeah - they didn't really accomplish those goals - but they started very profitable businesses - so of course they ran with it.

For starters in this case, the difference between "Authentic" and "1-Poor" is heavily influenced by the card hobby notion (unlike in some other expensive hobbies) that alteration is always to deceive, and therefore is BAD, and so most altered cards - including some which look stunning - are automatically WORSE than cards with "honest" wear. This is how a card that has been trimmed a sixteenth of an inch and is otherwise minty in appearance gets a PSA AA, and the same card which is barely recognizable and may have indeed been run over by a truck might be in a PSA 1 - Poor slab. If a card is not necessarily altered, but just missing so much that it's generally considered to be worse than poor - then it will sometimes be slabbed as Authentic without the Altered.

Your Clemente IMO was a case of the grader having a bad day, or perhaps it was just one of their new graders (they have a lot right now...) that honestly doesn't know better or wasn't trained properly. I think that card should have been slabbed "Authentic"; as they have slabbed worse examples of cards missing pieces that way before. True "trimming" is generally done with the intent to at least be subtle - if it was not some kid back in 1959 or whenever who did some obvious trimming, trying to make the card fit into something smaller like a picture frame, or maybe even later with plastic pages designed for smaller cards. Your card is not "trimmed" per se, but missing a chunk.

At the end of the day, remember that yes - grading is subjective due to the necessity of tying a technical standard (generally definable) back to eye appeal of the card (something that will always be in the eye of the beholder). Grading companies count on this discrepancy, and it's one of their best kept secrets to keep cards flowing in, not to mention the large number of collectors who pop their cards in frustration and resubmit them, hoping to get a higher number on a piece of paper sealed up in a piece of plastic. Convincing collectors that they are experts who apply standards evenly (they aren't, and they don't...) is the great marketing genius of TPG's.

If you think your card is bad, look at the "half a T206 Wagner" graded early in the game as Genuine by PSA which has been making headlines recently for heading to the auction block.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by GRock

Here's one I have had since the 80's. Never really thought of wasting money on grading it just wondered if it would even be an "A". A neatly trimmed top edge with some tape to reinstall.

It has been a couple years but SGC wouldn't slab a similar one for me.

[bobbyw8469]

I think that card should have been slabbed "Authentic";

They would have if the OP had requested it. He specifically said he DID NOT want that. He wanted a number grade. That card simply would not have gotten a number grade. Put it this way.....if they had cut away the entire background and only left Clemente, to the point that is isn't a card anymore, but only a cutout of Clemente, would THAT be worthy of a grade? If the answer is no, then you understand the point I am trying to make.

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

To make sense of some of these seemingly silly and arbitrary decisions that professional graders make, you have to understand the history of grading and how it evolved within the hobby. The standards that a PSA or SGC generally use today are a carefully constructed and heavily modified heirloom of the way things were done originally in the 1970's and even earlier, with some totally new and random things added in that somehow survived the cut. The original MO for graders like PSA was to "set standards" and therefore prevent opinion swings between dealers and hobbyists, and to cut out a lot of alteration that was rampant in the hobby at the time. 30 years on, well yeah - they didn't really accomplish those goals - but they started very profitable businesses - so of course they ran with it.

For starters in this case, the difference between "Authentic" and "1-Poor" is heavily influenced by the card hobby notion (unlike in some other expensive hobbies) that alteration is always to deceive, and therefore is BAD, and so most altered cards - including some which look stunning - are automatically WORSE than cards with "honest" wear. This is how a card that has been trimmed a sixteenth of an inch and is otherwise minty in appearance gets a PSA AA, and the same card which is barely recognizable and may have indeed been run over by a truck might be in a PSA 1 - Poor slab. If a card is not necessarily altered, but just missing so much that it's generally considered to be worse than poor - then it will sometimes be slabbed as Authentic without the Altered.

Your Clemente IMO was a case of the grader having a bad day, or perhaps it was just one of their new graders (they have a lot right now...) that honestly doesn't know better or wasn't trained properly. I think that card should have been slabbed "Authentic"; as they have slabbed worse examples of cards missing pieces that way before. True "trimming" is generally done with the intent to be subtle and to deceive - if it was not some kid back in 1959 or whenever who did some obvious trimming, but with the intent of making the card fit into something smaller like a picture frame, or maybe even later with plastic pages designed for smaller cards. Your card is not "trimmed" per se, but missing a chunk.

At the end of the day, remember that yes - grading is subjective due to the necessity of tying a technical standard (generally definable) back to eye appeal of the card (something that will always be in the eye of the beholder). Grading companies count on this discrepancy, and it's one of their best kept secrets to keep cards flowing in, not to mention the large number of collectors who pop their cards in frustration and resubmit them, hoping to get a higher number on a piece of paper sealed up in a piece of plastic. Convincing collectors that they are experts who apply standards evenly (they aren't, and they don't...) is the great marketing genius of TPG's.

If you think your card is bad, look at the "half a T206 Wagner" graded early in the game as "Genuine" by PSA which has been making headlines recently for heading to the auction block. There are no true standards really at any given moment. It's just whatever the graders feel like doing when they first look at your card.

It looks like the "half a Wagner" card you're referring to is actually the second card ever graded by PSA. So they gave the first one, a trimmed T206 Wagner, an 8 and the second one a "Genuine," which would translate as "Authentic" in today's grading. Two over-graded cards is not an inspiring start for PSA. Admittedly, they hadn't figured a lot of things out at that point.
https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...06-wagner-psa/

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by robw1959

It looks like the "half a Wagner" card you're referring to is actually the second card ever graded by PSA. So they gave the first one, a trimmed T206 Wagner, an 8 and the second one a "Genuine," which would translate as "Authentic" in today's grading. Two over-graded cards is not an inspiring start for PSA. Admittedly, they hadn't figured a lot of things out at that point.
https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...06-wagner-psa/

They haven't necessarily figured out a ton more in the intervening decades either...

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

They would have if the OP had requested it. He specifically said he DID NOT want that. He wanted a number grade. That card simply would not have gotten a number grade. Put it this way.....if they had cut away the entire background and only left Clemente, to the point that is isn't a card anymore, but only a cutout of Clemente, would THAT be worthy of a grade? If the answer is no, then you understand the point I am trying to make.

In that case it was probably just the grader being sloppy. They could have printed out the "A" flip while not slabbing instead of saying it was trimmed, which would have been more accurate. Unlike PSA, SGC does not differentiate between A and AA. They don't have to tell you why the card didn't get a number grade, though in this case it's pretty obvious.

[profholt82]

I just saw this one come up at auction. The second card PSA ever slabbed, they apparently used a "genuine" grade at that time.