63 Topps Mantle - Possible Print Variation? Unfinished Proof?

[packs]

This Mantle was described as being "washed out" but I think a lot more is going on here than some fading:

The text box is supposed to Green, but it's entirely Blue on this card. Even with fading, Green is Green and Blue is Blue. I don't see any Green here at all.

Besides that, the "N.Y. Yankees OF" text is supposed to be Yellow. It is White on this card. Perhaps fading could explain where the Yellow went, but perhaps the Yellow was never printed on the card either.

Lastly, the "Mickey Mantle" text is supposed to have a 3-D effect where the White letters are outlined in Blue against the Green printed box. This card has no 3-D effect because it's just the White letters against the Blue print.

Because all Mantle's have this 3-D effect in the text box, I think it's reasonable to guess that every Mantle was Blue before being overlaid in Green to create the 3-D effect.

What do you guys think? Print variation? Unfinished proof without the Green and Yellow passes? Sun damage?

[swarmee]

Could it be that the yellow was never printed? Yes.

Is it more likely that it was faded after years of sitting in UV light? Yes.

Did Ziploc teach us that yellow and blue make green? And on a half-tone printing process, if you remove the yellow, all you have left is the blue?

Edit: I guess my point is what are you trying to say? That this card should definitively be called a proof so it sells for more? I disagree.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

looks like it's missing yellow ink on the front. Even though the colors aren't laid individually on modern cards if a less than observant pressman let the yellow ink run out it can happen.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Even though the colors aren't laid individually on modern cards if a less than observant pressman let the yellow ink run out it can happen.

Really modern stuff is probably on a multi color press, but I believe most cards up to 92 at least the colors were done individually. Even on a multi color press, they sort of are. I'm not aware of any litho presses that can do multiple colors from the same plate. (Intaglio yes, but those aren't used for cards, and maybe aren't even used for stamps anymore.)

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by steve B

Really modern stuff is probably on a multi color press, but I believe most cards up to 92 at least the colors were done individually. Even on a multi color press, they sort of are. I'm not aware of any litho presses that can do multiple colors from the same plate. (Intaglio yes, but those aren't used for cards, and maybe aren't even used for stamps anymore.)

I don't disagree but unlike T206's they weren't removed from a press and fed through another press to apply the separate color where a color could just be "missed". Maybe I'm early on the multicolor press I assumed they were in use by the 1950's. My problem with the fading theory is the black, especially in the head shot in the blue field is very strong.

Ben, the Spahn is an eye-opener for sure. I would have agreed even before I saw your card that green absolutely can fade to blue, as colors fade at different rates, but on the card in question I just keep coming back to the ONLY color I see missing is yellow. I see Cyan, Magenta and Black that don't appear faded to me.

[packs]

The reason I think this card goes beyond a simple sun soaking is that the coloring of the blue is so uniform.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I don't disagree but unlike T206's they weren't removed from a press and fed through another press to apply the separate color where a color could just be "missed". Maybe I'm early on the multicolor press I assumed they were in use by the 1950's. My problem with the fading theory is the black, especially in the head shot in the blue field is very strong.

Ben, the Spahn is an eye-opener for sure. I would have agreed even before I saw your card that green absolutely can fade to blue, as colors fade at different rates, but on the card in question I just keep coming back to the ONLY color I see missing is yellow. I see Cyan, Magenta and Black that don't appear faded to me.

Put that card beside a normal one and you will see a big difference in the black under magnification. I have faded a 63 in the sun before. One big misconception is all faded cards look alike. That is far far from the truth, different years and different brands fade differently. I got tired of getting ripped off so I done a ton of experimenting on so called "print errors".

[JollyElm]

I obviously could be wrong, but to me there is no question it is sun faded. Here's a random 1963 Mantle from ebay...

s-l1600-3.jpg49227112593_9754d9404c_c.jpg

Like your scan, the blue circle is still blue, but yours is a very faded blue (which shouldn't/wouldn't have been affected by a dearth of yellow), and the rectangle 'text box' is a different shade of blue than the circle, and you can 'see' some green (depends on how good someone's vision is, I guess) there. It's subtle, but it is a lighter, bleached out green (same with the under side of his hat). Plus, as was implied earlier, the entire card is lighter all over and across the entire color spectrum, telling me it either spent a lot of time in the sunlight or was held by some bikini babe in a tanning bed (wanted to sex up this post a bit).

[packs]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Could it be that the yellow was never printed? Yes.

Is it more likely that it was faded after years of sitting in UV light? Yes.

Did Ziploc teach us that yellow and blue make green? And on a half-tone printing process, if you remove the yellow, all you have left is the blue?

Edit: I guess my point is what are you trying to say? That this card should definitively be called a proof so it sells for more? I disagree.

Having a tough day or something? I'm asking if this card is unfinished or faded. The whole text box is a solid color. I know how to make green like anybody else, but you'd think you'd still see some of it if it were there.

[bnorth]

Looks sun faded to me, it has that overall dull look that faded cards have. Real missing color cards are still bright and vibrant looking.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by packs

Having a tough day or something? I'm asking if this card is unfinished or faded. The whole text box is a solid color. I know how to make green like anybody else, but you'd think you'd still see some of it if it were there.

No, I just see this question asked over and over on this board. Go back and look for the threads. There are plenty showing that the color can be completely sun-faded out. So proving that this one is not sun-faded is not really possible.

[packs]

Originally Posted by swarmee

No, I just see this question asked over and over on this board. Go back and look for the threads. There are plenty showing that the color can be completely sun-faded out. So proving that this one is not sun-faded is not really possible.

I am not some new guy. I know that sun fades color. I'm asking a question about a card I thought had atypical qualities because I didn't think the sun was the answer. If you don't want to partake in the discussion it is totally optional.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Could it be that the yellow was never printed? Yes.

Is it more likely that it was faded after years of sitting in UV light? Yes.

Did Ziploc teach us that yellow and blue make green? And on a half-tone printing process, if you remove the yellow, all you have left is the blue?

Edit: I guess my point is what are you trying to say? That this card should definitively be called a proof so it sells for more? I disagree.

Fading is a possibility but man that blue is so pure, and the black areas seem OK. Having worked in a print shop, it looks like missing ink. That doesn't make it a proof necessarily (or even likely) but a print screw-up like a blank back.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Fading is a possibility but man that blue is so pure that to me, having worked in a print shop, it looks like missing ink. That doesn't make it a proof necessarily (or even likely) but a print screw-up like a blank back.

Proof is a word that carries a lot of weight. Maybe I shouldn't have said proof, I think unfinished is a better word and more in line with what I was going for.

I am in agreement with you. I don't think this card got all the ink it was meant to. The Blue is so strong and even that it looks like it's all that was printed. I think the faded look of the photo portion of the card could be a result of missing coloring in those areas too.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by packs

Proof is a word that carries a lot of weight. Maybe I shouldn't have said proof, I think unfinished is a better word and more in line with what I was going for.

I am in agreement with you. I don't think this card got all the ink it was meant to. The Blue is so strong and even that it looks like it's all that was printed. I think the faded look of the photo portion of the card could be a result of missing coloring in those areas too.

Bet the farm it is sun faded. I have experience in this.

[packs]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Bet the farm it is sun faded. I have experience in this.

I don't think the sun is the answer for your card either. The thinking would be that the sun ate the yellow coloring out of the green to make blue, right? but the yellow outlining the Brave is untouched.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Bet the farm it is sun faded. I have experience in this.

That card looks awesome. Quite “trippy” - for lack of a better word.