T206 REFERENCE, Reflections, VOL II......Reprising the Ty Cobb / TY COBB card debate

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


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.... Sweet Caporal ..... Sovereign .......... Piedmont ____ The "House" that created these Tobacco cards ___ Sovereign … American Beauty …. UZIT



This thread is a continuation from my first T206 REFERENCE thread. For access to all the interesting T206 information in the first thread, click on...…. T206 Reference

I will start this thread by saying that I have never been a fan of graded Sportscards. And, many of you who know me, know this. All this "gloom & doom" regarding the
shenanigans in this hobby (which have consumed much of the "oxygen" on Net54 these past several weeks) is nothing new.

The most highly prized card in this hobby is not an original Factory-cut card, yet it is graded an 8. Therefore, to paraphrase Claude Raines in Rick's Café in Casablanca:
" I'm shocked - I'm shocked, to find out there is trimming going on in this hobby ! "

Nowadays, most Sportscards which are graded with 7, 8, or 9 grades are no longer a cherished collectible. They have become a mere commodity.

Oh well, I've said enough....it's time we've had some fun on this forum....show us some of your favorite UNGRADED cards in your T206 collection.

I will start this show-n-tell with some of my favorite T206 cards which are ungraded...…





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TED Z

T206 Reference
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[t206kid]

Raw is how T206s were meant to be!

[t206kid]

Most of my set is raw so I really dig this thread. A few other favorites of mine:

My childhood Walter Johnson. Spent every penny I had on it when I was 12.

Shag Hindu because well it’s Shag. Dahlen Brooklyn scrap. And a sweet back tattoo!

[brianp-beme]

The 150/350 series is loaded with a good chunk of the great portraits in the T206 set, both HOF and Non-HOF players, but it also has some cool action images as well. Always looking out for the underdog, I thought I might highlight some of the 'commons' in the 150/350 series, all in the raw.

Brian

[Trublubrucru]

This card has been with me for 38 years. I bought it in a live auction at a Milwaukee card show at Gonzaga Hall in the Spring of 1981. I was 12 years old(sound familiar?) and beat out all the older guys in bidding. I knew it was something special, at the next show a guy offered me 3X what I paid for it . I got into game used collecting shortly after and that turned out to be the only T206 I ever bought. Never had a desire to grade it, just loved the pureness of the card, and through the decades I could pull it out and gaze at it and it would take me back to 1981 and I can remember how it felt at 12 winning that auction. Always puts a smile on my face.
Fast forward to 2017. After reading all the informative threads, especially yours Ted, I decided to re-enter the T206 domain and bought some graded cards. A full 36 years between T206 purchases, I still love the raw.

[brianp-beme]

I am spotlighting the Jim Pastorius card, because I don't ever remember anyone here singing praises about the artwork on this card before. And better yet, this example lacks plastic and looks 100+ years old.

Brian

[tedzan]

Love these ungraded T206's....especially when they are in 15-slot plastic sheets which are arranged in binders.


Page #1 of SOVEREIGN 350 "apple green" series (66 subjects)

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/





TED Z

T206 Reference
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[tlhss]

Not the greatest photo. I collect only raw. Well loved. And just for fun ... not for investment. I don't have my cards in binders. I keep them in a tobacco tin.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tlhss

Not the greatest photo. I collect only raw. Well loved. And just for fun ... not for investment. I don't have my cards in binders. I keep them in a tobacco tin.

Hi tlhss
Welcome to the club. And, I like your philosophy..... "collect only raw. Well loved. And just for fun ... not for investment."

Hey, I have one of those MAYO Tobacco tins. Nice idea to store cards in them. I have a lot of extra T206's
all over the place in my office. So, I'll start arranging them inside this tin.





TED Z

T206 Reference
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[kateighty]

I have several Mayo Cut Plug tobacco tins. And quite a few raw cards. Sorry not sharing.

[commishbob]

I own the Benders, a Matty and a small collection of others.







I had my Marquart here but the image was too big.

[tedzan]

My first two red HINDU cards, acquired years ago when graded cards were not such a "craze" that they are now.
I probably should have Donlin and Tannehill graded.....but, I'm not in the mood to do so.


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Please excuse the graded Crandall, as Tannehill's picture is on the same scan.



TED Z

T206 Reference
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[tedzan]

Hey guys,
Let's keep this "T206 train" rolling along with some more of your ungraded "oldies but goodies" cards.

My first LENOX and UZIT cards. I acquired them at the HOF weekend BB card show in Cooperstown (circa mid-1980's). The LENOX cost $15, and the UZIT cost $10.
Those were the days !

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TED Z

T206 Reference
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[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Ted, I continue to cling to the hope, however remote, that you and I are closely related in some way.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Bill77]

20 of the 60 cards I have. Only 5 of my cards have been graded.

[tedzan]

Here's a tough "trifecta"....the Carl Lundgren (Cubs) cards is a favorite of mine for several reasons. Especially, since this Lundgren
was the first T206 subject of which I completed it's back run (only 3 cards needed). Love these ungraded cards. I acquired them in
ungraded form, and that's the way they will stay.

Plus, I had to include the color-error (missing blue ink) of Lundgren just to accent this display.



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TED Z

T206 Reference
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[t206kid]

A few more cards from my raw set. One of my favorite backs... very underrated in my opinion.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by t206kid

A few more cards from my raw set. One of my favorite backs... very underrated in my opinion.

Outstanding! I love T206s that look like those...perfect!!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by t206kid

A few more cards from my raw set. One of my favorite backs... very underrated in my opinion.

Hey Jay

Looks like a good start on a complete SOVEREIGN set run. Although, only 402 subjects comprise a basic SOVEREIGN set, it is very tough to complete.

There are 3 of us on this forum who have accomplished this run. And of course, David Hall would be the 4th.

Anyhow....Good Luck

TED Z

T206 Reference
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[tedzan]

Speaking of completing a single T-brand set run, I recommend trying the challenge of an all SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set.
My experience suggests the SWEET CAP/#30 is the easiest to "complete".....and, the least expensive. Only 469 cards complete
this set. NO > Southern Leaguers (48), Joe Doyle Nat'L, Demmitt & O'Hara (St Louis var.), Kleinow (Boston), Lundgren (Cubs),
Magie, Frank Smith (Chicago & Boston).
Of course, the Plank and Wagner are another story, so you'll have to be content with a 467-card run....it will still be great fun.





If you undertake this type of ultimate T206 run.....Good Luck.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Interesting, Ted. Once again I have learned something. I wish we had more threads like this one. Thank you.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Flea Market finds in the late 70's

[WillowGrove]

Kept my near complete set like this from 1979 until 2009. Now they're in card savers and sheets. Great thread.

[tedzan]

Great stuff, guys.

Thanks for posting your T206's.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *






This subject was recently posted in the T206 REFERENCE thread (posts #698 - 713). Now, continuing here from those posts, let's have a friendly and meaningful discussion.

Nine years ago, Jon Canfield posted this Ty Cobb/TY COBB thread.. What We Have Learned About Ty Cobbs With a Ty Cobb Back . It sparked some spirited discussion,
plus evidence revealing that the Ty Cobb Cut Plug Smoking Tobacco was introduced in November 1909. Furthermore, it's my opinion that this card was issued Spring 1910.

Only eight red portrait Cobb cards with the Ty Cobb back were known 9 years ago. Since then 14 more have been discovered. Most of them have been from collections in the
greater Atlanta area.

Anyway, with all that we have learned on this forum about this mysterious card....Is this card, or isn't this card part of the T206 family ?







Factory #33...... manufacturer of the Ty Cobb Smoking Tobacco






TED Z

T206 Reference
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[chiprop]

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1560476320

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1560476320

[Leon]

Wow. Nice.

Originally Posted by chiprop

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1560476320

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1560476320

[Rhotchkiss]

Real nice 👍

[Sean]

That's a great Drum.

[tedzan]

barrysloate
6-5-2019

Originally Posted by barrysloate

We've had this discussion before, but let's give it another shot. With regard to its design, it is an exact match to other T206's. But in terms of its distribution, it is entirely different. All the other 15 brands issued hundreds of different players and poses, as an incentive for consumers to purchase more packs. Ty Cobb tobacco, on the other hand, issued only a single pose. And that is not consistent with T206's as we know them. I say it's not part of the set, but have no problem if the hobby wishes to include it.

[tedzan]

Hi Barry


Yes, we've had this conversation several times before. And yes this card is very unique in the vast population of white-bordered tobacco cards printed and issued from 1909 - 1919.

Newspaper clippings tell us ATC introduced the Ty Cobb tobacco Tin in late 1909. The graphic on this Tin pictures the Ty Cobb (bat on shoulder) pose.....from the 150 Series T206's.

The card, however, is that of the red portrait pose of Cobb. This is consistent with my research that indicates that this pose of Cobb was printed by American Lithographic when they
first started issuing their 350 Series cards (circa....early 1910). Anyhow, this Ty Cobb card was a promotional premium. While some were handed out to customers, other cards were
most likely inserted in the Tin. In any event, my guess is that very few of them were printed (perhaps a single sheet of approx. 100 cards).

So, should this Ty Cobb card be included in the T206 set...I tend to think so. But, I do understand why other collectors would disagree. If I could afford this card, I would put it in my
T206 all - SOVEREIGN set, since it has a green colored back


TED Z

T206 Reference
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[tedzan]

barrysloate
6-6-2019

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Hi Ted,
Allow me to offer a more detailed explanation for my position:

The years 1909-11 were fiercely competitive for the various American tobacco brands, and they went to great lengths to sign up baseball players and to issue literally millions of cards each to include in their cigarette packs. This was a major marketing endeavor that turned out to be wildly successful.

Ty Cobb tobacco, on the other hand, had no part in this at all. If they printed only a single sheet of 100 cards, as you suggest, that sounds to me like no more than a one-day marketing campaign, limited to a very small geographic area. Yes, they "borrowed" the red image of Cobb, and designed the back to conform with what was circulating in America, but they were not at all competing with the other brands. How could they? How could a hundred cards compete with the millions being produced elsewhere?

And even if the American Lithograph Company printed them, that in itself doesn't make them part of the national promotion. So I will go so far as to say they have nothing at all to do with T206's, other than they have a similar appearance, something not uncommon in the 1910-era.

That said, if we took a survey, I'm guessing the majority would say they are T-206's. And that's okay, I don't mind taking a minority position. And why are you and I the only ones discussing this? Don't others want to take a break from the PSA/PWCC debacle and talk real baseball cards?

[tedzan]

Hi Barry

1st, I will answer your last comment regarding the "PSA/PWCC debacle". It has been "sucking" most of the oxygen out of this forum for weeks.
It's not surprising to me that you and I are the only two guys on this forum talking about this Ty Cobb / TY COBB post.

Anyway, my guess that approx. 100 cards were printed by American Lithographic, which were shipped to the Reidsville Plant in N.C., may be an
underestimated amount on my part. However since only 23 of these cards have been discovered as of this date, I may not be too far off on this
number of only 100.

Perhaps, we will get some more guys chiming in here with their opinions on this subject.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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