1909-1911 T206 Christy Mathewson #307 (Dark Cap) or #308 (Portrait)

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

Hi everyone, I'm relatively new to these boards and completely new to vintage. I know there's a fountain of knowledge here regarding T206s, so I wanted to ask your advice about the Christy Mathewsons in the set. I've long been fascinated by the mystique and prestige surrounding this all-time great who played for my favorite franchise. I'd like to add one of his cards to my very small collection, mostly consisting of Barry Bonds at the moment. Any insights you can offer as I begin my search would be most appreciated!

Just some things I'm thinking about...

Ideally it should be...
1. Appealing to my eye. Surface condition is underrated and centering overrated when it comes to post-war and modern in my opinion. Is there a (what I would call unholy) fixation on centering for T206s too? Give me vibrant colors, registration, and original gloss any day.
2. A sound investment. Or at least something that keeps up with inflation in case I ever needed to liquidate. It's no fun to watch the value of a card in your PC tank, even if you don't plan on selling it. Unfortunately the market values centering which may be in conflict with what appeals to me visually.
3. Unaltered. I want it to be as free from doctoring and alterations as possible. I'd sacrifice condition and eye-appeal for it.

Dark Cap v. Portrait
I think the #307 Dark Cap is the best looking in the set. To me, it's the depiction that most resembles the photographs I've seen of Mathewson. The more I learn, though, about how much more other collectors seem to covet the #308 Portrait, the more I begin to see the appeal. It's certainly the most striking variation, but it's not a baseball pose, obviously. And I don't think it resembles the man terribly much. But it is a beautiful card. And I'd be lying if I said that how much I wanted a card was independent of how much others wanted it.

Backs
Sweet Caporals seem to be easily the most popular even though (and maybe because?) they are relatively common, with the exception of the 350-460 Factory No.25 variant. Is that right? Are Piedmonts considered far less desirable despite VCP lumping them in with Sweet Caporals? What about Polar Bear, Sovereign, etc. from a collecting, aesthetic, and investment perspective?

Value
Do you think one of 307-309 or a particular back variation is undervalued for some reason? The values for, say, a Portrait Sovereign graded 5, have been relatively steady over the last decade and a half.

Price
I'll probably start looking in the VG-Ex (4) to Ex (5) price range. But I love a good deal and could move two grades in either direction if I found a great price for the card I'm getting.

Grading
Also, I noticed SGC doesn't sell nearly as well as PSA in the same grade. Do you think that's a legitimate or irrational market reaction?

Random thoughts and questions:
1) I've noticed a lot of lower grade cards with perfectly rounded corners as if someone trimmed them to create a more symmetrical silhouette. TPGs don't single these out and downgrade them to Authentic, instead assigning a numerical grade. Why is that?
2) Is there such thing as investment grade in your opinion?
3) How do I look out for cards that have hidden paper loss or filled-in pinholes?
4) What other alterations are common and how do I spot them?
5) How many copies of 307, 308, and 309 are out there do you think?
6) How do you feel about soaking to remove stains? It's maybe the one type of restoration that I'd consider, but I hear even a successful procedure can make the card much bigger from being pressed.

Thanks again!

[Peter_Spaeth]

I feel like you are overthinking it. Dark Cap is much cheaper and as you say more attractive (IMO), find yourself a nice PSA or SGC 4, 4.5 or 5 and be done with it.

[Cozumeleno]

The Matty dark cap is my favorite picture in the whole set. Can't go wrong with it.

[CW]

Hi and welcome to the forum. Good luck with your search for a nice T206 Mathewson, no matter which pose you decide.

It's not a big deal that you refer to the cards by number, but just an "FYI" that most collectors simply refer to the cards by the player name and pose. So in this case you would typically hear folks calling the cards "Mathewson portrait", "Mathewson dark cap", and "Mathewson white cap". Some really astute collectors ( ) substitute the word Mathewson with "Matty" for short, myself included.

To answer a few of your questions:

1) I've noticed a lot of lower grade cards with perfectly rounded corners as if someone trimmed them to create a more symmetrical silhouette. TPGs don't single these out and downgrade them to Authentic, instead assigning a numerical grade. Why is that?

Most likely what you are seeing is not trimming which caused the perfectly rounded corners, but natural wear over time. Since the wear is natural from being handled over the years, TPGs assign a grade because they are not altered. Some collectors shy away from rounded corners, while others like them, often saying it shows the card was "well loved".

2) Is there such thing as investment grade in your opinion?

Yes, but overall the term is really a marketing phrase, in my opinion. In general, for a card as old as T206 investment grade might be considered 6 or 7 and above. For postwar cards like mainstream Topps, PSA 8 and above would be considered investment grade. Personally, any card you buy is an investment and should be treated as such. PSA 2s can appreciate, too, but as with any investment, the more you invest, the more you can make (or lose).

3) How do I look out for cards that have hidden paper loss or filled-in pinholes?

This shouldn't be much of a concern if you are buying graded in the 4 to 5 range (although some paper loss has gotten by the graders in the past, it's rare to see it). Some things you can do to avoid paper loss would be to A) ask the seller if it has paper loss, B) try to view a good scan of the card before buying , and C) when you receive a card, check it out under good light or use a flashlight.

Finally, regarding soaking, most people soak T206s when there is something stuck to the reverse or the card is stuck in an album and they need to get the card out without back damage (provided the glue is water soluble).

Many collectors do not have a problem with soaking a card for these purposes. The topic has been discussed quite a bit in the past here, and you will learn a lot more by browsing these topics:

Link to "soaking" search

[brianp-beme]

Thought I would start off with just one inquiry.

1) I've noticed a lot of lower grade cards with perfectly rounded corners as if someone trimmed them to create a more symmetrical silhouette. TPGs don't single these out and downgrade them to Authentic, instead assigning a numerical grade. Why is that?

Being a collector of lower grade vintage cards for an incredibly long time I can tell you many lower condition cards quite often develop corners that look uniformly rounded. Of the non-authentic cards that are roughed up to look authentic, the well-worn rounded corner seems to be tough to duplicate, and often I can pick out a these non-original cards just by how the 'damaged' corners appear.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Below is my take on the following inquiry:

Backs
Sweet Caporals seem to be easily the most popular even though (and maybe because?) they are relatively common, with the exception of the 350-460 Factory No.25 variant. Is that right? Are Piedmonts considered far less desirable despite VCP lumping them in with Sweet Caporals? What about Polar Bear, Sovereign, etc. from a collecting, aesthetic, and investment perspective?

Popularity on backs is tough to judge, as some of the least common backs often garner strong interest. As far as availability between Piedmont backs and Sweet Caporal, Piedmont is by far the most commonly found, and I have never noticed much difference overall in demand between these two most common backs.

Brian

[Rhotchkiss]

I’ve seen you post a few questions about t206s. Most of what you are asking can be found (many times over) by just searching old net54 posts. As far as t206 backs - and some of us really love the backs (more than the fronts)- I recommend these two papers/articles:

http://www.oldcardboard.com/t/t206/i...al-edition.pdf

https://www.psacard.com/articles/art...ack-variations

Also, Derek Hogue, a member of net54, has a great hardcover book on t206’s and backs. He is at t206society.

As far as the best Matty, that’s up to you. The portrait is most expensive/valuable, followed by white cap and then the very common dark cap (one of the 6 most common cars in the set). They are all great. Find one you like and for a good price, and then get the next one. After you have gotten all 3 poses, try to get all the front/back combos (and if you go down that path, let us know if you ever re-emerge from that Bermuda Triangle)

Good luck!

[rats60]

I agree about surface and corners. That is much more important to me than centering. However, there are a lot of centering obsessed people in prewar too. My eyes go to the picture and then corners before looking at the borders.

T206s are great investments and you protect yourself from getting altered cards by buying graded. The portrait is the better card, but if you like the dark cap, go with It. It will still be a solid investment.

I would be less concerned about the back than condition. If condition is equal then go for the tougher back. I personally like PSA 6, but nice looking 5 is ok. I feel that is the sweet spot for prewar. When you get to 4, there seems to be a wide variance in condition. Look at cards in PSA's data base and get an idea what cards look like in the grade you want and then try to find one at the top of the range. I am also a fan of buying the nicest condition that you can afford. Although, at PSA 8 and above, I am concerned about altered cards. Collecting in the 80s, you did not see mint t206s. There seems to be a lot more today, just like autographed t206s.

PSA does bring a better a better price, but once you know what the card should look like for the grade, you can see when cards are overgraded and ones that look nice for the grade or even undergraded. I buy both companies because I want the nicest looking card, not the nicest looking registry.

As far as your random questions, those are the things that grading companies look for, so you should be safe buying graded. Both companies have population reports on their websites so you can get a general idea of how many cards are out there.

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I feel like you are overthinking it. Dark Cap is much cheaper and as you say more attractive (IMO), find yourself a nice PSA or SGC 4, 4.5 or 5 and be done with it.

Don't be ridiculous...I am DEFinitely over thinking it! I don't own all that many cards from any era and landing a nice Mathewson is probably going to tie up a large portion of my hobby budget. That's by design but it also means that this would be a major collecting decision for me. And yet, the simplest answer is often the best one. So I appreciate your encouragement to streamline the process.

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

The Matty dark cap is my favorite picture in the whole set. Can't go wrong with it.

As someone who apparently has all the cards in the set (wow), your feelings about the Dark Cap is a really cool thing to know about you, thank you. After all, I may think a card is sweet, but it's even sweeter if all my proverbial friends at the proverbial public library trading day think so too. Maybe it's more like my friends' parents approval here though? Since, you know, many of you are old (read: older than me) plus have more money.

Originally Posted by CW

Hi and welcome to the forum. Good luck with your search for a nice T206 Mathewson, no matter which pose you decide.

It's not a big deal that you refer to the cards by number, but just an "FYI" that most collectors simply refer to the cards by the player name and pose. So in this case you would typically hear folks calling the cards "Mathewson portrait", "Mathewson dark cap", and "Mathewson white cap"...[/URL]

Thank you for the warm welcome and for answering so many of my questions. And also for teaching me how to speak a little T206! It's going to be a humdinger of a race between Matty Portrait and Dark Cap, methinks. Lol anyways, I picked up a lower grade Dark Cap, partly so I know what an example looks like close up at that grade. I asked about soaking because it has a stain that I wish I could wash away. But as I feared, having seen some videos of the procedure, and what you're telling me now, that's not the point of soaking. But even so, to hold a piece of 110 year old baseball history in my hands is such a special event, I can't wait for it to happen.

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

...Being a collector of lower grade vintage cards for an incredibly long time I can tell you many lower condition cards quite often develop corners that look uniformly rounded. Of the non-authentic cards that are roughed up to look authentic, the well-worn rounded corner seems to be tough to duplicate, and often I can pick out a these non-original cards just by how the 'damaged' corners appear.

Brian

Brian that's fascinating. I might have to run a few examples by your sharp eye some day soon, thanks for weighing in. Is there an industry standard for what "lower grade" means, or is just in the eye of the beholder?

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

...Popularity on backs is tough to judge, as some of the least common backs often garner strong interest. As far as availability between Piedmont backs and Sweet Caporal, Piedmont is by far the most commonly found, and I have never noticed much difference overall in demand between these two most common backs.

Brian

That's a relief...and one less factor I need to worry about. Basically, I'll just avoid the Coupon backs and other cards that resemble T206s but aren't.

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I’ve seen you post a few questions about t206s. Most of what you are asking can be found (many times over) by just searching old net54 posts. As far as t206 backs - and some of us really love the backs (more than the fronts)- I recommend these two papers/articles:

http://www.oldcardboard.com/t/t206/i...al-edition.pdf

https://www.psacard.com/articles/art...ack-variations

Also, Derek Hogue, a member of net54, has a great hardcover book on t206’s and backs. He is at t206society.

As far as the best Matty, that’s up to you. The portrait is most expensive/valuable, followed by white cap and then the very common dark cap (one of the 6 most common cars in the set). They are all great. Find one you like and for a good price, and then get the next one. After you have gotten all 3 poses, try to get all the front/back combos (and if you go down that path, let us know if you ever re-emerge from that Bermuda Triangle)

Good luck!

Big ups on the reading recommendations. There is just so much info out there, and even though I've read a fair share of old threads, I'm glad I asked for help. I'm already so much better equipped to embark on this quest, thanks to you all. I took a quick glance at your links and there was what appeared to be a chart for all the card-to-backside permutations. I couldn't make sense of it at a glance, so just that little tidbit about the Dark Cap being among the most common T206s in the set is a great piece of info to know. And emerging haggard from the baseball card Bermuda Triangle? Bwahahaha, the imagery! I literally laughed out loud on that one. How do you indicate that in short-hand? Maybe lolnird (no I really did)? Take that, millennials, two can play this game.

Originally Posted by rats60

I agree about surface and corners. That is much more important to me than centering. However, there are a lot of centering obsessed people in prewar too. My eyes go to the picture and then corners before looking at the borders.

T206s are great investments and you protect yourself from getting altered cards by buying graded. The portrait is the better card, but if you like the dark cap, go with It. It will still be a solid investment.

I would be less concerned about the back than condition...

Hey, thanks for giving me your thoughts from an investment perspective and also for your positivity and encouragement. You are so spot-on with your advice here. How can you be so wrong about Bonds? ; )

[Orioles1954]

My favorite Matty by a mile is his T205 Gold Border. Just a beautiful portrait. I'd take that over any of his T206s.

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

Just starting off extremely humbly, so pardon the unsightly stain. I hope to slowly upgrade from here until I find one I love.




The stain's actually not as noticeable in person but it's gonna bother me. Thanks again for all your sage advice so far. It's still an incredible experience to be in the presence of history!

[T206Collector]

Great card and nice pickup! The stain gives it a unique personality. You may find yourself strangely missing it if you upgrade. Either way - congrats!

[Throttlesteer]

Yep, and the stain is probably what kept your Matty from a 3.5 or evan a 4. Nice color and centering.