Opinions about COA's at shows.

[lrspaulp]

OK, this is my first post on Net54. I would like to know everyones opinion, especially after the National and HOF Induction weekend, about COA's after you pay for an autograph after a show. A few months ago, I paid for Darryl Strawberry for a project piece I'm working on at Dave & Adam's in Buffalo. When I was through, I received a FREE COA with a hologram for my item and a card with a matching hologram. Yesterday I was in Cooperstown and paid for Ryne Sandberg, Rickey Henderson, Ozzie Smith and Dale Murphy for the same piece. No COA's given by MAB or 7th Inning Stretch......BUT, I could pay JSA $10 for a letter at the MAB show. My opinion, and I am hoping others as well, is that for the amount of money we spend on autographs, I feel the promoter should provide us with a COA for free. I understand that it is a total racket with MAB and JSA because I literally watched dozens and dozens of collectors standing in line for COA's after they got items signed. It's just my personal opinion that the COA should be part of the process at no cost to the collector and hats off to Dave & Adams for doing it for free. Thanks.

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[rats60]

I would say that nothing is free. D&A just included it in the price of the auto while the others gave you the option of paying less for an auto without a COA.

[lrspaulp]

True, nothing is "free", but we aren't paying "less" for anything. Prices are increasing.......I actually watched Rickey Henderson question someone's item and said it was too big and told him to go out and upgrade the ticket because neither he nor his handler understood what "Oversized item" meant. My point is that the COA should be included as part of the autograph. I just think its BS to go pay JSA $10 to give me a letter to tell me the autograph I just paid $160 for is authentic.

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[Enfuego]

Free COAs would definitely be a
Nice perk at no cost, but the harsh reality is, organized events would provide the COA versus COAs at a event such as the Baseball Classic played at Cooperstown annually


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[Bestdj777]

I don't get the point. If you see it being signed, do you need a certificate to tell you it is real? And, will a buyer actually care about a COA from a show promoter?

[lrspaulp]

Originally Posted by Bestdj777

I don't get the point. If you see it being signed, do you need a certificate to tell you it is real? And, will a buyer actually care about a COA from a show promoter?

The point is that we see so much fake stuff out there, and we are spending a LOT of money at these shows that I feel that the COA should be a part of this when the autograph is purchased. That's really all my point is. Like I said, I saw a LOT of people paying $10 a pop to get something from JSA. And I really feel MAB should be providing us with something. I have had several discussions with another Net54 member who feels the same way.

[icollectDCsports]

If COAs were issued with autographs as standard practice, then the promoter/issuers would include some extra charge in the auto fee for the materials and the effort. But not all auto purchasers care to pay extra (included or on top of the base fee) for this service. I don't go to many auto signings but, when I do, I don't opt to pay for a COA and would rather the base fee not include something I have no need for.

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by icollectDCsports

If COAs were issued with autographs as standard practice, then the promoter/issuers would include some extra charge in the auto fee for the materials and the effort. But not all auto purchasers care to pay extra (included or on top of the base fee) for this service. I don't go to many auto signings but, when I do, I don't opt to pay for a COA and would rather the base fee not include something I have no need for.

+1

[drcy]

Yes, it should be included.

[Bigdaddy]

Keep your auto ticket and take a picture with your phone of the athlete signing your item. There's your COA.

Tom

[Lordstan]

I agree that for the prices the public is paying the cert should be included, but the one thing that is missing in your calculations is that the promoter COA costs nothing for them to give out except a little in printing costs. PSA/JSA are separate companies that the promoters would have to pay to provide the service. That would cut into their profit or would mean that the autos would be $10 more.
The reality is that for those who need certs to buy autos, a show cert may not mean much. The TPAs are "independant" and have successfully marketed themselves as "The" authorities, so they can get away with charging more for their services. Right or wrong, there is a portion of the population that will only buy certed items.
Personally, I would never pay for certification of anything unless I was going to be selling it in the short term, especially if I just saw it autographed in front of me.

[mcgwirecom]

Always take a picture. If it is a unique item then it is proof positive. The cool thing about in person autographs was that they used to let you take a picture for free. Look at my icon of me and Joe D. But they pretty much stopped letting you do that. But you can still get a picture of them signing your item.

[Huck]

COAs are a license to print money. There was a time when each signer had a stack of COAs next to them at the table. Then COAs started costing $5-$10. Then the big sell was online COA. Look up the COA for the signed item at any time, day or night! The thing is when these COA companies go belly-up (and they will) will the COA database remain online in perpetuity? The answer is "no". Case in point. The former owner of CSA, used to have online COA at every show. I don't know if the former owner had a piece of the COA business or the business was subbed out to another company. In any event COA online is toast. It will take the collective memory of hobbiests to remember if such a coa company even existed. Hobbiests will likely remember JSA, Upper Deck, perhaps Schwartz, Steiner to name a few. As another poster said take a picture. Keep the ticket stub (if possible, CSA does, MAB does not). Keep a show flier, advertisement in the paper, email from the company, something that proves the event took place, there is no reason to spend money on a COA.

[lrspaulp]

Great discussion. And I thank everyone thus far for their opinions.

[mrmopar]

A COA is only "necessary" if you are looking to sell an item at a later date and want a little extra comfort for the potential buyer. The problem is that fake autos often come with COAs as well. It is a sad reality of autograph collecting that turned into big business and wherever there is a chance for fraud in business, it will materialize.

Perhaps I will take a small profit loss if I ever sell my stuff, but I really don't care. I have never collected with the intention of selling, so if I lose a few $$ because I don't have a COA, so be it. I certainly would never pay extra for a COA.

[Gary Dunaier]

These COAs they sell at shows... do the people who issue them actually see the item being signed? Or is it "a matter of trust?"

A few years ago, there was an autograph show at Citi Field. PSA/DNA provided authentication services. If memory serves me right, the way it worked was that once you got your autograph and left the area, you'd go to another table, show the receipt for your autograph, and the representative would look at the item, place a hologram sticker on it, and enter the information in the computer - but the representative did not actually see the items being signed.

Is this method still done, or was what I saw not the norm?

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

These COAs they sell at shows... do the people who issue them actually see the item being signed? Or is it "a matter of trust?"

A few years ago, there was an autograph show at Citi Field. PSA/DNA provided authentication services. If memory serves me right, the way it worked was that once you got your autograph and left the area, you'd go to another table, show the receipt for your autograph, and the representative would look at the item, place a hologram sticker on it, and enter the information in the computer - but the representative did not actually see the items being signed.

Is this method still done, or was what I saw not the norm?

I remember them doing the exact same thing. I mean, what would stop someone from having something signed, and then taking a forgery over to be "authenticated". They then have a bad one that's already passed, and a good one they could easily sell without a sticker. Weird.

[lrspaulp]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

These COAs they sell at shows... do the people who issue them actually see the item being signed? Or is it "a matter of trust?"

A few years ago, there was an autograph show at Citi Field. PSA/DNA provided authentication services. If memory serves me right, the way it worked was that once you got your autograph and left the area, you'd go to another table, show the receipt for your autograph, and the representative would look at the item, place a hologram sticker on it, and enter the information in the computer - but the representative did not actually see the items being signed.

Is this method still done, or was what I saw not the norm?

At the MAB show last week in Cooperstown, the JSA table was set up outside, in front of the Tunnicliff. Now, you go in the front door and have to exit out the back, and walk back out front and stand in line.........NO ONE sees you get the autographed item. So, in theory, you could have Rickey Henderson sign a photo, have a fake get the JSA COA and sell the fake. Makes NO sense the way it was set up. Now, at the Dave & Adams show I went to after you get your item signed, you have to pass the table to get the COA before you leave and if you leave you can't come back to get the COA. That makes much better sense and I wasn't charged for the COA there but you had to pay JSA at the MAB show.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

These COAs they sell at shows... do the people who issue them actually see the item being signed? Or is it "a matter of trust?"

A few years ago, there was an autograph show at Citi Field. PSA/DNA provided authentication services. If memory serves me right, the way it worked was that once you got your autograph and left the area, you'd go to another table, show the receipt for your autograph, and the representative would look at the item, place a hologram sticker on it, and enter the information in the computer - but the representative did not actually see the items being signed.

Is this method still done, or was what I saw not the norm?

Still the norm, but I have seen video/picture authentication. Just another way to make even more money. A few years back, JSA was exposed over the casual way certs are verified.

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/wp-cont...-Bando-JSA.mp4

Now, it is Sal Bando. I would argue that the Sal Bando market is not as lucrative as say the market for a Mantle signature. I don't think the process would have varied if Mantle was signing instead of Bando. If collectors are hell bent on certs, the process is easily fixed. Have a certifier at each signers table (more staff = more expense). If the item leaves the table it is not certified. I am sure collectors would pay for a picture/video of the actual signing of the item. Promoters offer expensive photo ops with players, why not a private signing of your item before the signer heads to the main floor?

Again, save some money and create your own provenance (aka peace of mind) keep the ticket stub (at MAB take a picture of the ticket, same with Tristar), keep the sales receipt, keep a show flier or create a pdf file of the promoters email announcing the show, a newspaper clipping. Heck, I have even kept toll receipts to prove that I was at a certain location on a given date.

Save your money!

[Stampsfan]

I was at a local comic expo a few years ago, and got a couple of Silver Aged comics signed by Stan Lee. CGC was certifying the autographs at the show, and eventually (like nine months later) they showed up with the yellow label.

Anyhow, the line for Stan Lee was nuts. Then you went to another area around 30 yards away, and lined up to fill in the CGC paperwork. There was ZERO checking that when you left the line to get Stan Lee's signature, you went straight to the CGC line.

There was so much opportunity to just walk into the CGC line with any item. Plenty of opportunity for fraud.

Further info: With CGC, they put the date and event on the yellow label. The credibility of this information is seriously in doubt.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

I was at a local comic expo a few years ago, and got a couple of Silver Aged comics signed by Stan Lee. CGC was certifying the autographs at the show, and eventually (like nine months later) they showed up with the yellow label.

Anyhow, the line for Stan Lee was nuts. Then you went to another area around 30 yards away, and lined up to fill in the CGC paperwork. There was ZERO checking that when you left the line to get Stan Lee's signature, you went straight to the CGC line.

There was so much opportunity to just walk into the CGC line with any item. Plenty of opportunity for fraud.

Further info: With CGC, they put the date and event on the yellow label. The credibility of this information is seriously in doubt.

When I have done CGC Signature Series in the past (at least several years ago), I filled out the paperwork, then CGC took the unsigned item from me and THEY got it signed. Has this changed? If so, I would agree that the new process leaves plenty of room for fraud.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

When I have done CGC Signature Series in the past (at least several years ago), I filled out the paperwork, then CGC took the unsigned item from me and THEY got it signed. Has this changed? If so, I would agree that the new process leaves plenty of room for fraud.

Interesting your experiences are different. Definitely not the way it worked in my only experience in getting things authenticated by CGC.
Nobody took our items. It was line 1 to line 2, and no checking in between.

This was maybe three years ago...?

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Interesting your experiences are different. Definitely not the way it worked in my only experience in getting things authenticated by CGC.
Nobody took our items. It was line 1 to line 2, and no checking in between.

This was maybe three years ago...?

Last time I did it was the New York comic con... Probably around 6 years ago.

Your experience shakes my confidence in the CGC sig series service. It used to be air tight.

[Gary Dunaier]

At some conventions, you can have a CGC representative accompany you to a signing; he will witness the item being signed, and your comic will be eligible to receive a "Signature Series" label.

Some creators who charge for their signature will charge a higher fee if the signing is witnessed.

[Stampsfan]

My one experience, Stan Lee was a machine. $75 an autograph, and never looked up or conversed. I almost didn't break stride getting my two comics done.

Next it was "If you want CGC to certify Mr. Lee's signature, go to the line over there."

And yes, it was the yellow "CGC Signature Series" label they came back with.