T206 350/460 series (illustrated) and why certain T-brands are mutually-exclusive

[tedzan]

"Pictures are worth 1000 words"....therefore, I have constructed these scans of the 350/460 series subjects in order to illustrate how the mutually-exclusive 460-type backs
in this series resulted from American Lithographic separating these 63 subjects into two print groups.

Group A of the 350/460 series includes 35 subjects printed and issued with these four 460-type backs (circa..late 1910 > early 1911).

.
Factory #25 VA ......................... Factory#42 N.C.


Conversely, these 35 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.... AMERICAN BEAUTY 460....UZIT


Group A

.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Group B




Group B of the 350/460 series includes 28 subjects printed and issued with these two 460-type backs (circa..Feb-Mar 1911).


.


Conversely, these 28 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.... SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 25....SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42....red HINDU....BROAD LEAF 460


Furthermore.....please note my use of the word " subjects " (instead of cards). We do not actually know how many cards were printed on a standard size sheet. These group
numbers (35 and 28 subjects) are rather small. It is very likely that the Group A subjects were Double-Printed, or even Triple-Printed on a standard size sheet. I have several
350/460 series T206's with double-same-names (indicative of vertically Double-Printed cards). This same multiple printing format applies to the Group B subjects.


Note
The LENOX brand....so far, 43 of these 63 subjects have been confirmed with the LENOX back. I haven't included LENOX in this analysis since a discernible pattern isn't quite
evident at this time. It's still a work in progress.


Your inputs on anything related to this subject are appreciated.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

With respect to the 350/460 series subjects, PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 back was printed on all 63 of these subjects.


TED Z
.

[Gradedcardman]

Originally Posted by tedzan

With respect to the 350/460 series subjects, PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 back was printed on all 63 of these subjects.


TED Z
.

I concur with Ted

[tedzan]

I received an email from a Net54 reader regarding the CYCLE 460 cards.

Apparently, the CYCLE 460 cards were printed prior to American Lithographic separating into two groups the 63 subjects in the 350/460 series.

All these 63 subjects, and the 46 subjects in the 460-only series, were printed and issued with CYCLE 460 backs.



.



TED Z
.

[mrvster]

Thanks to Chris B !! hope this helps

yellow brown scrap collage 350/460 overprint missing.....these were prob concurrently printed with broadleaf 460??

[tedzan]

....you are the man !

Thanks for posting the scan of those 350/460 series cards. That group of cards is a perfect match for the group I have defined as "Group A" in my introductory post here.

I love it when empirical evidence matches theory.

Take care, good buddy.

TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Johnny V's post reminded me to comment on the 350/460 series subjects printed SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #30 backs.

These 63 subjects were initially printed with this back. However, these cards were never issued. Instead, these cards were overprinted with the Factory #42 N.C.
designation in anticipation of the impending divestiture of the American Tobacco Co. (ATC). The SWEET CAPORAL production was to be transferred from ATC's New
YORK plant (Factory #30) to the Liggett & Myers plant (Factory #42) in Durham, NC.



. .




T206 collector's value these 350/460 incomplete "scraps" printed only with yellow and brown ink and with SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #30 backs.

.




Post script
After the "break-up" of ATC in 1911, ATC retained the SWEET CAPORAL brand. The AMERICAN BEAUTY and PIEDMONT brands went to Liggett & Myers.



TED Z
.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

As a novice collector of T206, I'm utterly confused with all the back variations. Maybe my brain is fried end of week but reading above is like reading chinese. Lol

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,
Great work on these 350/460s. The bifurcation between regular prints and super prints was in need of further explication and you and others have taken the next steps by showing these mutual exclusivities among the entire 350/460 group. I'll be thinking about what you have posted here and provide thoughts publicly or privately.
Scot

[Leon]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Hi Ted,
Great work on these 350/460s. The bifurcation between regular prints and super prints was in need of further explication and you and others have taken the next steps by showing these mutual exclusivities among the entire 350/460 group. I'll be thinking about what you have posted here and provide thoughts publicly or privately.
Scot

Thanks to all who share with the hobby. Would like to hear your thoughts, Scot, on Ted's findings.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Hi Ted,
Great work on these 350/460s. The bifurcation between regular prints and super prints was in need of further explication and you and others have taken the next steps by showing these mutual exclusivities among the entire 350/460 group. I'll be thinking about what you have posted here and provide thoughts publicly or privately.
Scot

Hi Scot

You & I have talked about these 350/460 factors in the past. I thought it would be less complicated for new collectors to the T206 game, by illustrating with scans of these 63 subjects.

I look forward to your inputs.

Thanks,

TED Z
.

[Pilot172000]

Ted

You need to gather all of your T206 threads and put them in book form. I'm down for at least three copies.

[sreader3]

Leon -- thanks for the words of encouragement.

Ted -- for starters, can you remind me of the history behind you having Ames as a AB460 no-print whereas Tim and Jim list him as confirmed? (If there is a history, that is).

Thanks.

[sreader3]

Also, a question for Ted and Adam:

Does Bergen Catching exist with P42, in your view?

How about Chance Batting?

Reason I ask is there are groups of 28 and 12 that keep popping up and without these 2 I count 11 460-only subjects confirmed with P42. (Not counting Kleinow Boston or Smith Chicago and Boston as 460-only)

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Leon -- thanks for the words of encouragement.

Ted -- for starters, can you remind me of the history behind you having Ames as a AB460 no-print whereas Tim and Jim list him as confirmed? (If there is a history, that is).

Thanks.

Scot

OK, here's the history regarding the Ames (hands above head) card......
Approx. 10 years ago, when Bill Brown created his "super-set" Excel diagram, Tom Botticelli inputted to Bill the Ames (hands above head) card with an AB 460 back.

During that time period, I ran a long-term survey on AB 460 cards (since, I was working on completing an AB 460 run). And in 2010, I posted my AB 460 survey on
Net54 which included Ames as confirmed with this back (even though I questioned it)..

In Dec 2011 when "T206resource" was posted on Net54, Ames was on their list of confirmed AB 460 cards. I strongly doubt that they found such a card (most likely
they copied my list).

In 10 years of collecting AB 460 cards, I've never seen an Ames / AB 460 card. Furthermore, David Hall (whose master T206 set approaches 5000 cards, has never
seen this Ames.

As far as I'm concerned (as indicated in my 1st post in this thread) the fact that this Ames card has recently been verified with the SWEET CAP 460 Factory#42 back
absolutely verifies that this Ames card will NEVER be found with an AB 460 back. The AB 460 backs and the SC 460 (Factory #42) backs are mutually exclusive.

I fully expect that Ames (hands above head) will eventually be found with the red HINDU back.

That's my story, my good friend.


TED Z
.

[VintageJay]

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

Ted

You need to gather all of your T206 threads and put them in book form. I'm down for at least three copies.

I agree! Thanks for all your tremendous research!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Also, a question for Ted and Adam:

Does Bergen Catching exist with P42, in your view?

How about Chance Batting?

Reason I ask is there are groups of 28 and 12 that keep popping up and without these 2 I count 11 460-only subjects confirmed with P42. (Not counting Kleinow Boston or Smith Chicago and Boston as 460-only)

Scot

Here is what my records (dating back to 2006) indicate regarding Bergen and Chance with " PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 " ......

Bergen (catching) ....... Brian Weisner reported this one, circa 2008

Chance (batting) ...... I have never seen this card. Also, David Hall has yet to see this card.

Back in Sept 2006....there was a thread posted regarding a Chance with a P 460/42 back on ebay. It was the Yellow portrait version of Chance.
And, I think as the years have transpired since then, this particular card has "morphed" into the Batting version in some peoples' minds.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Scot

Incidentally, here are the 12 guys listed in my PIEDMONT thread. I have (or have had) Chase (trophy), Latham, Merkle, Schaefer, Schlei (batting), and Wiltse.
The other 6 subjects have been reported by Net54 members.

460-only Series......12 subjects

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


..




TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

Ted

You need to gather all of your T206 threads and put them in book form. I'm down for at least three copies.

David

I appreciate your suggestion. It would be quite a project, as I have been posting T206 stuff for over 10 years on Net54.

Thank you for your complimentary words.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

VintageJay


Thanks....I appreciate your complimentary words.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

The six super-prints ** were the first group of T206 subjects that were printed with 350 series backs and 460 series backs. American Lithographic printed
these 6 cards in their SOVEREIGN 350 & SOVEREIGN 460 press runs. This was the start of the 350/460 series, which was expanded to include 63 subjects.

The SOVEREIGN 460 cards of these 6 super-prints are very tough to find. And, especially the red Cobb.



.

.


. . . . . . . .


. .
. .



** Note
In his book "Inside T206", Scot Reader's excellent analysis of the T206 set identifies these 6 subjects as the "super-prints".



TED Z
.

[Sean]

Hi Ted, I'm sorry for changing the subject, but I'm wondering if all of these Super prints were made with Red Hindu backs as well? I don't think that a Mathewson has ever been found?

I know that they aren't part of the exclusive twelve (I think that that's what you called them in another thread), but how difficult are these with a Red Hindu?

[tedzan]

Hi Sean

Listed here is my up-to-date info regarding the red HINDU cards The cards in the 350/460 series are all very tough to find with the red HINDU back.
Whereas, the Exclusive 12 cards (460-only series) are more available with the red HINDU backs.

To date, 31 subjects have been confirmed with the red HINDU back in the
350/460 series.

Baker
Bender (no trees)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Chance (portrait-yellow).............super-print
Chase (blue).............................super-print
Chase (dark cap).......................super-print
Cobb (red portrait).....................super-print
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)..........super-print
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)

Magee (bat)
Murphy (batting)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)


460-only series (Exclusive 12)

Crandall (cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummel
McGraw (glove at hip)
Pfeffer
Sheckard (glove)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Wheat



The following 350/460 subjects have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back. All four are possible with this back.

Ames (hands above head)
Mathewson (dark cap)................super-print
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Reulbach (no glove)


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Thanks Ted.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

After surveying the situation, I believe the subject composition of all backs printed in the 460 series can be defined in relation to six groups, as follows:

Group A:
Baker – Young (Glove Shows)
(consists of 28 350/460 regular print subjects -- your Group A minus super prints minus Ames)

Group B:
Berger – Wiltse (Pitching)
(consists of 28 350/460 regular print subjects – your Group B)

Group C:
Abbaticchio (Blue Sleeves) – Wiltse (Portrait with Cap)
(consists of 22 460-only subjects not printed with P42 and not part of your "Exclusive 12")

Group D:
Chance (Portrait Yellow Background) – Mathewson (Dark Cap)
(consists of 6 350/460 super prints)

Group E:
Bergen (Catching) – Seymour (Portrait with Cap)
(consists of 12 460-only subjects printed with P42)

Group F:
Crandall (Portrait with Cap) – Wheat
(consists of your “Exclusive 12” 460-only subjects)

Rule-Breaker: Ames (Arms Above Head)

* * *

Subject Composition for Backs printed in 460 Series:

American Beauty 460: B, C, E, F
Broad Leaf 460: A, D
Cycle 460: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
El Principe de Gales: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
Hindu (Red): A, D, F
Lenox (Black): A, B, C, D, E (+ Ames)
Lenox (Brown): B, E
Old Mill: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
Piedmont 460/25: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
Piedmont 460/42: A, B, D, E (+ Ames)
Polar Bear: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
Sweet Caporal 460/25: A, C, D, E (+ Ames)
Sweet Caporal 460/30: C, D, E, F
Sweet Caporal 460/42 No Overstrike: A, D, F (+ Ames)
Sweet Caporal 460/42 Overstrike: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
Tolstoi: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
Uzit: B, C, E, F (+ Ames)

The reason I have Ames as a "rule-breaker" is that he is available with both SC 460/25, which does not include Group B, and Uzit, which does not include Group A.

Please let me know if you see any errors in these proposed groupings.

Thanks.

Scot

(Note 1: Of course, EPDG, Old Mill, Polar Bear and Tolstoi were earlier-printed with subjects beyond those in the listed groups).

(Note 2: And, naturally, mutual exclusivity attaches with respect to backs which have none of Groups A-F, nor Ames, in common).

[tedzan]

Hi Scot

Everything you listed looks good to me....with the exception of your references to Ames. Sorry, but I have to differ with you on Ames for the following reasons......

1.... After 10+ years of collecting American Beauty 460 (AB 460) cards (I now have 70 of the 74 that were printed), I have never seen Ames with this back. And, I
think you will agree that although AB 460 cards are very tough, they are not that scarce that in this day there may be some still "missing in action". Such as there
are with the Broad Leaf 460, red Hindu, or Uzit backs.

2.... Furthermore, I have never seen this Ames with a Uzit back. Nor do I know of anyone having seen this front/back combo. I'm curious where you got that from ?

3.... The collage that Johnny V posted in Post #5 here clearly indicates that Ames is one of the 35 subjects printed in Group A.

4.... Finally, pardon me for reiterating this....but, there are 4 subjects (in Group A) that have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back. All four are possible with
this back based upon what we know regarding the mutually-printed backs in the 350/460 series. Eventually, these four will de discovered with red Hindu backs.

Ames (hands above head)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Reulbach (no glove)

Therefore, I do not believe that Ames is a "rule-breaker".


TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

Thanks for your response.

I purposely did not say Ames is extant with AB460 or Red Hindu.

So we are really down to Uzit as a point of contention.

If Ames doesn't exist with Uzit it would make my life easier since he would not be a rule-breaker.

Tim and Jim say he exists with Uzit, so I guess that's the rub.

Do you know the history behind the Ames Uzit entry?

Scot

[Pat R]

There are some non-YB scraps that made it out the back door too.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Hi Ted,

Thanks for your response.

I purposely did not say Ames is extant with AB460 or Red Hindu.

So we are really down to Uzit as a point of contention.

If Ames doesn't exist with Uzit it would make my life easier since he would not be a rule-breaker.

Tim and Jim say he exists with Uzit, so I guess that's the rub.

Do you know the history behind the Ames Uzit entry?

Scot

Hi Scot

Here's what I recollect regarding Ames with a "UZIT" back. Along with my numerous T206 surveys which I started on this forum back in 2006, I ran
a UZIT survey. The response to this survey by Net54er's was pretty good, as we accounted for 48 confirmed UZIT cards in the first 2 weeks.

During that time period, an advanced T206 collector (Don) came to my booth at the Philly Show in Ft Washington (PA). He showed me his binder of
T206's which included 15 UZIT cards in a plastic sheet. I was impressed and in the course of our conversation, he told me that he had 5 (or 6) more
UZIT cards back home.

A couple days later Don called me about a trade we had planned. Also, he described the other UZIT cards he had, one of which he claimed was Ames.
I guess I trusted that he had Ames, since he appeared to be a very forthright guy at the show.

So, I guess I'm guilty of posting Ames as confirmed in my UZIT survey back in 2006 without having seen this card. My bad !

Subsequently, I proposed my theory regarding the various 350/460 mutually-exclusive backs, which have withstood the test of time. I realized then
Ames could not have been printed with the UZIT back.

So, why others here show Ames confirmed with UZIT is something that I cannot speak for.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Pat R

Some nice looking 350/460 series "scraps". Thanks for posting them.

It would have been nice if these 350/460 series cards with Sweet Cap 350-460, Factory #30 backs
were originally issued (instead of being overprinted as Factory #42 cards).






Your 5 cards bring my tally up to 16 of these scraps recently in circulation on ebay. And, I'm sure
there are more of them out there.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Including the 5 cards posted by Pat (post #28), I have accounted for 16 of these Sweet Caporal Factory #30 "scraps" in circulation......

Berger
Bradley
Burch
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy
Crawford
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Leifield
Overall
Smith (Chi & Bos)
Steinfeldt
Doc White
Wilhelm
Willis (bat)
Wiltse

Very interesting, so far all these guys are from the 350/460 series print group that I have designated as Group B.


Group B







If you know of more of these 350/460 series Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory #30 "scraps", please post them here.


Thanks,

TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Further research has accounted for 27 of these Sweet Caporal Factory #30 "scraps"....all of which are from Group B.

Missing from this group is the Lajoie card.


Berger
Bradley
Burch
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy
Crawford
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan
Lake
Leach
Leifield
Manning
McQuillan
Mullin
Overall
Pelty
Pfeister
Smith (Chi & Bos)
Steinfeldt
Tinker
Wagner
Doc White
Wilhelm
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse


If anyone knows of a Lajoie with a Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory #30 back...... please show or tell us of this card.


Thanks,

TED Z
.

[Baseball*Collectibles]

Thanks for doing this research Ted.

I have done as much research as I possibly can (my computer, with all of my scans etc., crashed ~ 5 years ago), on the confirmed AB460 with Ames. The only information I have are the threads here, eBay, AH sales and my email history. Here is my conclusion.

Back in 2005 until ~ 2006 I sold off my T206 collection, which consisted of near sets of Hindu's/Cycle's/AB's. Most of the collection was sold privately, however, I did sell quite a few to board members/eBay at the time. I found an email chain where I had listed 17 AB460's to a board member. Ames was on the list (Unfortunately no scans). I contacted the board member, and he has confirmed, although we never spoke about it at the time, my colossal error.

The card was a Cycle 460 not the AB460, so I must have accidentally cataloged and mistakenly sold the card as an AB460. One of these days I will spend the money to fix the failed hard drive to confirm, however, I am now 99% sure this was an error on my part, and to note, I should have confirmed the Cycle 460 on Bill's spreadsheet since I had multiple examples. My excel copy, at that time, did not have this card confirmed. Sorry for the confusion, and great job Ted on the research.

Thanks, Tom

[tedzan]

Hi Tom

I really appreciate your response here. It resolves the mystery of the "American Beauty 460" card of Ames.

Since Ames was not printed with an AB 460 back, then I'd bet that Ames was not printed with a UZIT back.


Thanks again,

TED Z
.

[tedzan]

The BROAD LEAF 460 cards exist ONLY in the 350/460 series. And, only 35 of the 63 subjects in this series were theoretically printed with the BROAD LEAF 460 backs.

Group A

.





As of today, these 27 subjects have been confirmed with the BROAD LEAF 460 back......

Baker
M. Brown (Chicago)
Cobb (red portrait)........................super-print
Davis (A's)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)...................super-print
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Mathewson (dark cap)....................super-print
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)

Seymour (throwing
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
Cy Young (glove)


There are 8 subjects from this group that have yet to be discovered. I expect these T206's will eventually be found with BROAD LEAF 460 backs......

Ames (hands above head)
Bender (no trees)
Chance (portrait-yellow).................super-print
Chase (blue).................................super-print
Chase (dark cap)...........................super-print
Donlin (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Magee (bat)


TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

Sorry for the belated response. You've convinced me that Ames is a Group A guy. So here is an updated 460 series profile on which I hope we agree:

Group A:
Ames (Arms High) – Young (Glove Shows)
(consists of 29 350/460 regular print subjects -- your Group A minus super prints)

Group B:
Berger – Wiltse (Pitching)
(consists of 28 350/460 regular print subjects – your Group B)

Group C:
Abbaticchio (Blue Sleeves) – Wiltse (Portrait with Cap)
(consists of 22 460-only subjects not printed with P42 and not part of your "Exclusive 12")

Group D:
Chance (Portrait Yellow Background) – Mathewson (Dark Cap)
(consists of 6 350/460 super prints)

Group E:
Bergen (Catching) – Seymour (Portrait with Cap)
(consists of 12 460-only subjects printed with P42)

Group F:
Crandall (Portrait with Cap) – Wheat
(consists of your “Exclusive 12” 460-only subjects)

* * *

Subject Composition for Backs Printed in 460 Series:

American Beauty 460: B, C, E, F
Broad Leaf 460: A, D
Cycle 460: A, B, C, D, E, F
El Principe de Gales: A, B, C, D, E, F
Hindu (Red): A, D, F
Lenox (Black): A, B, C, D, E
Lenox (Brown): B, E
Old Mill: A, B, C, D, E, F
Piedmont 460/25: A, B, C, D, E, F
Piedmont 460/42: A, B, D, E
Polar Bear: A, B, C, D, E, F
Sweet Caporal 460/25: A, C, D, E
Sweet Caporal 460/30: C, D, E, F
Sweet Caporal 460/42 No Overstrike: A, D, F
Sweet Caporal 460/42 Overstrike: A, B, C, D, E, F
Tolstoi: A, B, C, D, E, F
Uzit: B, C, E, F

Thanks.

Scot

(Note 1: Of course, EPDG, Old Mill, Polar Bear and Tolstoi were earlier-printed with subjects beyond those in the listed groups).

(Note 2: And, naturally, mutual exclusivity attaches with respect to backs which have none of Groups A-F in common).

[tedzan]

Hi Scot

I like the way you presented the 460 series profile. And, it all looks good to me.


Thanks,

TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Thanks Ted.

I'm not 100% sure about Bergen's availability with P42 (not sure where you are on that), but we can leave him in Group E for now.

Scot

[tedzan]

Hi Scot

I too, am uncertain about Bergen.

My records dating back to 2006 indicate that his card was confirmed with Piedmont #42.

Then sometime (circa..2008) Bergen was unconfirmed. Then again, he was confirmed in 2010. But, I cannot find who reported this in 2010.


Incidently, with the exception of Overall & Schaefer, the other 10 guys are all New York based players. Is this a coincidence, or by design ?

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

There are two ways we can confirm Bergen as a Group E guy (and not a Group C guy) -- (1) P42 or (2) Brown Lenox. I'm not holding my breath a Brown Lenox will pop up though. The other thing is that with Bergen in Group E we have 12 subjects in the group, which is a 2x multiple of Group D (super prints) and the same number as in Group F (Exclusive 12). This would seem to make sense from a printing perspective.

I don't think the NY heavy composition of Group E is a coincidence, but I don't have a great theory on that at the moment.

Take care,

Scot

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Hi Ted,

There are two ways we can confirm Bergen as a Group E guy (and not a Group C guy) -- (1) P42 or (2) Brown Lenox. I'm not holding my breath a Brown Lenox will pop up though. The other thing is that with Bergen in Group E we have 12 subjects in the group, which is a 2x multiple of Group D (super prints) and the same number as in Group F (Exclusive 12). This would seem to make sense from a printing perspective.

I don't think the NY heavy composition of Group E is a coincidence, but I don't have a great theory on that at the moment.

Take care,

Scot

Scot

If I understand what you are saying regarding Bergen with a brown LENOX back, it should be proof that he indeed was also printed with PIEDMONT 42....if Bergen
is found with a brown LENOX. Since, it appears that there is a coincidence between PIEDMONT 42's and brown LENOX cards in the 460-only series.


460-only series subjects with PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 and brown LENOX cards......

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy) ..................Brown LENOX
Latham .............................Brown LENOX
Marquard (follow thru) ........Brown LENOX
Merkle (throwing) ...............Brown LENOX
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schlei (portrait) ..................Brown LENOX
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap) ............Brown LENOX


TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by tedzan

If I understand what you are saying regarding Bergen with a brown LENOX back, it should be proof that he indeed was also printed with PIEDMONT 42....if Bergen
is found with a brown LENOX. Since, it appears that there is a coincidence between PIEDMONT 42's and brown LENOX cards in the 460-only series.

Precisely.

Group E subjects were printed with both P42 and Brown Lenox. Group C subjects weren't printed with either P42 or Brown Lenox. Thus, if Bergen is found with either P42 or Brown Lenox, he is Group E and was printed with both. (Whether he SURVIVED with both is of course another question).

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Hi Ted,

The other thing is that with Bergen in Group E we have 12 subjects in the group, which is a 2x multiple of Group D (super prints) and the same number as in Group F (Exclusive 12). This would seem to make sense from a printing perspective.

Take care,

Scot

Hi Scot

Thanks for mentioning the "12 factor" ......which I think it is inherent in the series structure of the T206 set. This factor has become increasingly apparent
to me since I completed my 2nd T206 set in 2004.

In your book, "Inside T206", you further refined this factor by introducing the factor of 6 in the printing structure of the T206 cards (i.e., six Super-Prints,
6 - horizontal T206's, etc.).



TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by tedzan

460-only series subjects with PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 and brown LENOX cards......

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy) ..................Brown LENOX
Latham .............................Brown LENOX
Marquard (follow thru) ........Brown LENOX
Merkle (throwing) ...............Brown LENOX
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schlei (portrait) ..................Brown LENOX
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap) ............Brown LENOX

.

Speaking of six, your above post shows that exactly six of the 12 Group E guys are so far confirmed with Brown Lenox. It is possible I suppose that Group E needs to be further bifurcated into two subgroups of six each, half printed with Brown Lenox and half not, although I think it's more likely that the to-date confirmation of six Group E guys is mere coincidence. Time may tell.

[Pat R]

Attachment 229871The seller that sold the large group of SC 350-460 Factory 30 "no print" scraps
also sold a large group of SC 350-460/30 subjects that were hand cut.

Howell Fact 30.jpg

There were multiple sales of each subject from the "no print" group
and most of the regular subset subjects were sold in multiples too.

Attachment 229870
Attachment 229871

Howell _1__1.jpg
Howell Back _1__1.jpg
Wilhelm _1__1.jpg
Wilhelm Back _1__1.jpg
What's interesting is the subjects that didn't come up for sale.

Here's the list of "no prints" that were sold

Sold

Berger
Bradley
Burch
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy
Crawford
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan
Lake (no ball)
Leach
Leifield
Manning
McQuillan
Mullin
Overall (hands at face)
Pelty
Pfeister
Smith (Chi & Bos)
Steinfeldt
Tinker (bat Off)
Wagner
White
Wilhelm
Willetts
Willis (batting)
Wiltse (pitching)

No sale

Ames
Lajoie (bat)

The list of subset subjects

Sold

Abbaticchio
Ball (Clev)
Bell (follow through)
Bergen
Bescher
Bridwell (with cap)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Camnitz (hands above head)
Chance (batting)
Crandall (with cap)
Devore
Doyle (port)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog
Howeell
Hummel
Lake (with ball)
McGraw (glove at hip)
McGraw (with cap)
Meyers
Murray (port)
Needham
Oldring
Overall (hands at waist level)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schulte
Sheckard
Smith (happy)
Stovall
Tannehill
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat


No sale

Chase (trophy)
Duffy
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle
Schaefer
Schlei (batting)
Schlei (port)
Seymour (port)
Wiltse (with cap)

[sreader3]

Hi Pat,
Thanks for the input. This seems more or less consistent with what we've been saying in this thread since all of the SC460/30 no-prints among the scrap were Group B guys whereas Ames (Hands High) is a Group A guy. As for the yes-prints, maybe a little surprised that Bergen (Catching), Murray (Portrait) and Overall (Hands at Waist) were among the scrap when the other Group E guys weren't. Who knows what that's about.
Scot

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Hi Pat,
Thanks for the input. This seems more or less consistent with what we've been saying in this thread since all of the SC460/30 no-prints among the scrap were Group B guys whereas Ames (Hands High) is a Group A guy. As for the yes-prints, maybe a little surprised that Bergen (Catching), Murray (Portrait) and Overall (Hands at Waist) were among the scrap when the other Group E guys weren't. Who knows what that's about.
Scot

Hi Scot,

There could be a number of reasons why but the no sale of Lajoie from the no
prints and Duffy from the subjects that were printed with this back stand out.

There were three Bergen & Overall's that sold and two Murray's.

Bergen_1.jpg
Bergen Back_1.jpg
Overall _waist_ _1__1.jpg
Overall _waist_ Back _1__1.jpg
Murray _1__1.jpg
Murray Back _1__1.jpg

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Attachment 229871The seller that sold the large group of SC 350-460 Factory 30 "no print" scraps
also sold a large group of SC 350-460/30 subjects that were hand cut.


The list of subset subjects

Sold

Abbaticchio
Ball (Clev)
Bell (follow through)
Bergen
Bescher
Bridwell (with cap)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Camnitz (hands above head)
Chance (batting)
Crandall (with cap)
Devore
Doyle (port)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog
Howeell
Hummel
Lake (with ball)
McGraw (glove at hip)
McGraw (with cap)
Meyers
Murray (port)
Needham
Oldring
Overall (hands at waist level)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schulte
Sheckard
Smith (happy)
Stovall
Tannehill
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat


No sale

Chase (trophy)
Duffy
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle
Schaefer
Schlei (batting)
Schlei (port)
Seymour (port)
Wiltse (with cap)

Pat and Scot

I'm not sure I understand why these 460-only series subjects with Sweet Cap 460 Factory #30 backs are of interest here.
As we all know, these guys were normally issued with this Sweet Cap back (unlike the 350/460 series subjects).

What am I missing in this discussion ?


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

In light of the 2 long anticipated, and recently discovered, rare T206 front/back combos** in the 350/460 series,
I'm reviving this thread in search of more missing rare T206's in this series.
I'll start this search with red HINDU cards.



Thirty-one of the 35 subjects in the 350/460 series in Group A have been confirmed with the red HINDU back.
These 4 remaining subjects have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back.

Ames (hands above head)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Reulbach (no glove)

If anyone on this forum has (or has seen) any one of these 4 cards, please show or tell us of them. Thanks, in advance.


** Note....the 2 recently discovered T206's referred to above are: Tinker (bat off shoulder) / PIEDMONT 460, Fac. #42
and Donlin (bat) / LENOX


A following post here searches for the missing BROAD LEAF 460 cards.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Group A of the 350/460 series includes 35 subjects printed and issued with these four 460-type backs (circa..late 1910 > early 1911).

.
Factory #25 VA ......................... Factory#42 N.C.


Conversely, these 35 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.... AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 .... UZIT



Group A

.



TED Z
.