1991 Topps Double Front (Glossy/Matte)

[bn2cardz]

Does anyone have any information on double front 1991 Topps cards? I have one that has a glossy player photo on one side and a matte player photo on the other. This is very similar to the 1990 Donruss and 1985 Topps double front cards, but I haven't seen another 1991 Topps and didn't know if there were any others known.

Here is my copy:

[Zach Wheat]

That is really interesting because the back of a normal 1991 Tools card has a paper stock back. It has to be something made in small batches as paper stock just doesn't normally come that way. Interesting find...

Z

[Rookiemonster]

It's not topps Tiffany ?

[bn2cardz]

The card shown above is a single card. It shows each side of the same card.

The glossy side looks the same as the front of any 1991 Topps card, but when flipped over there aren't any stats it is instead a picture of the other player. This second side I refer to the matte side, but it is a similar feel as a typical back of a 1991 Topps card.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

The card shown above is a single card. It shows each side of the same card.

The glossy side looks the same as the front of any 1991 Topps card, but when flipped over there aren't any stats it is instead a picture of the other player. This second side I refer to the matte side, but it is a similar feel as a typical back of a 1991 Topps card.

I have never seen one but would guess the back side looks to be "matte" because of the porous card backs. Just like printing on photo paper compared to regular paper.

[bn2cardz]

I noticed there are differences in how the photos were cropped also.

Notice on this normal Telford from COMC that his hat just barely breaks the inner border. On mine his hat is nearly to the outer border. There are other differences as well, but basically on my double front version there is more photo showing all around.


Similar with the Barfield image on the original compared to mine. In the Barfield, though, his head breaks into the second border where on the original it stops short:

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I have never seen one but would guess the back side looks to be "matte" because of the porous card backs. Just like printing on photo paper compared to regular paper.

Correct, I only describe it as matte to state that the glossy finish has not been applied. That it is dull and flat.


My question is really if there are other double sided (picture of the player on each side) 1991 Topps out there. I am sorry if my use of the word matte confused anybody. I just wanted to point out that the finishing of a typical front was not used on the second side.

[ALR-bishop]

I picked up a couple of the 85s as a curiousity but had not seen a 91

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Correct, I only describe it as matte to state that the glossy finish has not been applied. That it is dull and flat.


My question is really if there are other double sided (picture of the player on each side) 1991 Topps out there. I am sorry if my use of the word matte confused anybody. I just wanted to point out that the finishing of a typical front was not used on the second side.

I would assume that other exist . Only because I doubt there's one lol. It's more likely that atleast on sheet was produced.did you pull this card ?

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

I would assume that other exist . Only because I doubt there's one lol. It's more likely that atleast on sheet was produced.did you pull this card ?

Just because they were produced doesn't mean they are in circulation today. This card came from a woman that sells a lot of error/scrap/test cards that her, now deceased, husband obtained from an employee of topps back when they were produced.

She states he would buy the employee beer and he would bring things to him that was meant to go to the dumpster. It is possible she will run across more, but she is still sorting through his cards. I do have reason to believe it is possible that not all the cards she thinks he obtained this way were actually obtained in this manner (though most probably were).

I was curious, though, if outside of this widows old collection if there were more out there.


I actually have obtained other neat items from her and just had stashed this with that collection. When I saw the thread about the 1991 Topps Oil Can Boyd variation I thought that with such a following by some for this set that maybe someone has seen other cards that were similar.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Just because they were produced doesn't mean they are in circulation today. This card came from a woman that sells a lot of error/scrap/test cards that her, now deceased, husband obtained from an employee of topps back when they were produced.

She states he would buy the employee beer and he would bring things to him that was meant to go to the dumpster. It is possible she will run across more, but she is still sorting through his cards. I do have reason to believe it is possible that not all the cards she thinks he obtained this way were actually obtained in this manner (though most probably were).

I was curious, though, if outside of this widows old collection if there were more out there.


I actually have obtained other neat items from her and just had stashed this with that collection. When I saw the thread about the 1991 Topps Oil Can Boyd variation I thought that with such a following by some for this set that maybe someone has seen other cards that were similar.

Most of the really rare error stuff made it into the market just like you described. An employee stole it and sold it for extra $ or free beer. Topps also gave a lot of error sheets away to big costumers and has since the 80's that I know of. I have personally got many cards that way and know of other collectors that have done the same.

[Rich Klein]

I would love to see LexCat chip into this convo

[judsonhamlin]

Of course now I need to go through my Telfords to see if the cropping is a legit variation on the issued '91's.
This set is the biggest black hole of all time

[Laxcat]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

I would love to see LexCat chip into this convo

I believe I have some uncut sheets that are a little screwy from 82-91. They are still tubed up from topps somewhere in storage. I might be able to get to them in the next few weeks.

It is interesting all of the "scrap" & variations that have been popping up on the market. '91 topps is still super popular for "junk" wax. '52's have been likened to the T206 of postwar. Does this new found popularity call for 1991 topps being called the '52's of junk era?

I still haven't opened the jumbo case that I found. I'm curious to see what, if any, variation can be found in it. I'm guessing it is very early print run but not sure.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by judsonhamlin

Of course now I need to go through my Telfords to see if the cropping is a legit variation on the issued '91's.
This set is the biggest black hole of all time

If you have Barfields you should be sure to check those also. I am not a 1991 Topps expert. Even my cards from my childhood don't have many 91 Topps. That said both side's images are cropped differently than any incarnation of their corresponding topps cards (base, tiffany, and micro) I saw on COMC. I know COMC is a very small sampling, it would be interesting if the crop was different in the early press runs.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Just because they were produced doesn't mean they are in circulation today. This card came from a woman that sells a lot of error/scrap/test cards that her, now deceased, husband obtained from an employee of topps back when they were produced.

She states he would buy the employee beer and he would bring things to him that was meant to go to the dumpster. It is possible she will run across more, but she is still sorting through his cards. I do have reason to believe it is possible that not all the cards she thinks he obtained this way were actually obtained in this manner (though most probably were).

I was curious, though, if outside of this widows old collection if there were more out there.


I actually have obtained other neat items from her and just had stashed this with that collection. When I saw the thread about the 1991 Topps Oil Can Boyd variation I thought that with such a following by sopme for this set that maybe someone has seen other cards that were similar.

I think this fits with a lot of what was going on at Topps at the time. I think the 1991 Topps sets will be viewed as one of the seminal sets regarding experimentation with production/distribution/marketing for sets of the modern era. I believe the 1991 set marks a year when Topps was experimenting with a number of items regarding new production methods....experimenting with both cello and wax distribution methods (packs can be found in both wax and cello)......dispensing of the bubble gum...printing fronts on the new clay coated shiny paper fronts (over chipboard stock)....using UV brighteners in the red ink (see previous 1991 Desert Shield discussions) and experimented with distribution of the set in both cello and wax packs

As we have noted before the 1991 Topps set can be found with the most errors and variations when compared to most other modern sets. Curiously the 1991 Desert Shield set has no known variations....only print and ink variations.

Z

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

I think this fits with a lot of what was going on at Topps at the time. I think the 1991 Topps sets will be viewed as one of the seminal sets of the modern era. I believe the 1991 set marks a year when Topps was experimenting with a number of items regarding new production methods....experimenting with both cello and wax distribution methods (packs can be found in both wax and cello)......dispensing of the bubble gum...printing fronts on the new clay coated shiny paper fronts (over chipboard stock)....using UV brighteners in the red ink (see previous 1991 Desert Shield discussions) and experimented with distribution of the set in both cello and wax packs

As we have noted before the 1991 Topps set can be found with the most errors and variations when compared to most other modern sets. Curiously the 1991 Desert Shield set has no known variations....only print and ink variations.

Z

I am sure the UV brightener was not added to the red ink on the card backs but applied in a separate layer before the red ink. The brightener was a transparent yellow in color. I had a Nolan Ryan with just the UV brightener layer applied to the back. I started a thread about the card here on Net54.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I am sure the UV brightener was not added to the red ink on the card backs but applied in a separate layer before the red ink. The brightener was a transparent yellow in color. I had a Nolan Ryan with just the UV brightener layer applied to the back. I started a thread about the card here on Net54.

Some how I missed that thread!

sounds fascinating.

Now I have to look for some with a registration issue so both show.
Maybe some of the dark logo cards that aren't consistently dark are from problems getting one to print over the other?

Steve B

[GasHouseGang]

Sounds like Topps was experimenting with that sheet. Maybe the reason you see the cropping differences is because they didn't like the cropping, modified something on the sheet, and ran the scrap through the press again. This wouldn't be unusual, except that they usually don't let that sort of thing out the door with the newer cards. However, I remember reading about people reporting they found sheets of 1960s Topps cards used in the walls of their house as insulation as well as the printing plates. There used to be a fair amount of dumpster diving in the old days when these sorts of things would turn up.

[bn2cardz]

The lady I bought the original one from stated she thought she had seen another but couldn't remember which box it was in. She has now found it and sold it to me. So there are now at least two.

These are the images she provided me (front and back), but you can still see slight cropping differences.




I do agree that this may have been an early run to test image cropping prior to release and just ran both sides of the sheet for cost savings.

I believe her husband must have set up at shows, so maybe some of the non common players have been sold and are in other people's private collections. It will be interesting to see if any more pop up over time.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

The lady I bought the original one from stated she thought she had seen another but couldn't remember which box it was in. She has now found it and sold it to me. So there are now at least two.

These are the images she provided me (front and back), but you can still see slight cropping differences.




I do agree that this may have been an early run to test image cropping prior to release and just ran both sides of the sheet for cost savings.

I believe her husband must have set up at shows, so maybe some of the non common players have been sold and are in other people's private collections. It will be interesting to see if any more pop up over time.

Nice. I wonder how many similar cards or cards with other variations we will find.

[bn2cardz]

I tried to get these graded by PSA. The rest of my order Popped, but these show "N9: NOT GRADED Factory Mis-Print, No Grade". This surprised me.

Does anyone know if these types of issues are graded by BGS or SGC?

[JustinD]

Psa rarely grades proofs, which I would lean more to these being than a printing error for sure.

You might have better luck with Beckett.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Psa rarely grades proofs, which I would lean more to these being than a printing error for sure.

You might have better luck with Beckett.

I did try beckett for the 5 double sided cards I have but when they didn't grade I asked why and this is the response I got:

We’ve never seen cards that had double printed fronts. We’ve only seen ones with wrong backs. We’re thinking that it was factory items that were not supposed to get out from the factory. Because of that, we weren’t really comfortable grading/authenticating them for those reasons.

When I pointed out that they do grade the 1990 Donruss double fronts and asked what it takes to get them graded this is the response I got:

We do not grade all error/test cards, so it is just a case-by-case basis with each of those sets as to if we have sufficient information on each set, correspondence from the card company on us being able to grade these cards, etc. Most likely we tried to reach out to Topps about this set and they did not give us any information, so we went ahead to not grade the set because of lack of information from the card company. If you are able to reach out to Topps and have them send information to us regarding these error cards, we will look into grading them.

So my question is does anyone have a contact at Topps that might be able to get me more information on these cards?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

I did try beckett for the 5 double sided cards I have but when they didn't grade I asked why and this is the response I got:



When I pointed out that they do grade the 1990 Donruss double fronts and asked what it takes to get them graded this is the response I got:



So my question is does anyone have a contact at Topps that might be able to get me more information on these cards?

The fact they are not on regular 91 Topps card stock was probably also a big reason they would not grade them.

I will say it is weird Beckett would not grade them as they will slab almost anything.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by bnorth

The fact they are not on regular 91 Topps card stock was probably also a big reason they would not grade them.

I will say it is weird Beckett would not grade them as they will slab almost anything.

They are on regular card stock. I am confused why you think that?

The only reason I stated one side was glossy and the other side as matte was because the "matte" side is the side the stats would typically be on. There were some double glossy side 1990 Donruss cards so I wanted to be clear that this card still had the making of the regular card, except that the 'reverse' is does not contain stats.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

They are on regular card stock. I am confused why you think that?

The only reason I stated one side was glossy and the other side as matte was because the "matte" side is the side the stats would typically be on. There were some double glossy side 1990 Donruss cards so I wanted to be clear that this card still had the making of the regular card, except that the 'reverse' is does not contain stats.

I 100% guarantee it is not regular 91 Topps card stock. Look at the back of any regular 91 Topps and it is not white. There is no white ink on a baseball card. Those cards have a white border on both sides so it can't be regular card stock.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I 100% guarantee it is not regular 91 Topps card stock. Look at the back of any regular 91 Topps and it is not white. There is no white ink on a baseball card. Those cards have a white border on both sides so it can't be regular card stock.

Ok I understand what you are saying. In my mind I separated the "finishing" of the cardstock from the cardstock itself (even if that is an errant way of thinking). I don't have the cards in hand, but when I get them back I will compare them to 1992 Topps and see if it would be more accurate to compare those two cards.

This is why I want to find a contact at Topps to see if they can shed more light on these.

[Bob Moose's Corvette]

I believe 'errors' were intentionally printed. 1990 and '91 were the worst.

I have some '91 Topps fronts, with 1989 Topps *football* backs.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Bob Moose's Corvette

I believe 'errors' were intentionally printed. 1990 and '91 were the worst.

I have some '91 Topps fronts, with 1989 Topps *football* backs.

I do have a couple 91 Fronts with Football backs. As a matter of fact a Jose Canseco and Frank Thomas were a part of my submission to BGS.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Bob Moose's Corvette

I believe 'errors' were intentionally printed. 1990 and '91 were the worst.

I have some '91 Topps fronts, with 1989 Topps *football* backs.

I have some Topps baseball with 79 fronts and 78 backs. From the junk era I have blank fronts, blank backs, and wrong backs from most years/companies. They are my favorite cards. The Topps are very easy to find but but some of the others are very hard to find.

[steve B]

I have some of those 79/78 cards too. I think Topps used whatever cardboard was around as unfinished product for press adjustment or to produce other products.

I also have baseball fronts with Mork and Mindy sticker backs - not actually stickers but the sticker image.
And a Bazooka bubble gum box with 1978 Topps baseball backs inside. Another has black hole card backs inside.

Steve B

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve B

I have some of those 79/78 cards too. I think Topps used whatever cardboard was around as unfinished product for press adjustment or to produce other products.

I also have baseball fronts with Mork and Mindy sticker backs - not actually stickers but the sticker image.
And a Bazooka bubble gum box with 1978 Topps baseball backs inside. Another has black hole card backs inside.

Steve B

Steve have you seen any of the newer Heidlelberg printing machines? I got to see a new multi million dollar model about 5-7 years ago and they do everything for you. No adjusting of anything, they even had an eye for the color.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I 100% guarantee it is not regular 91 Topps card stock. Look at the back of any regular 91 Topps and it is not white. There is no white ink on a baseball card. Those cards have a white border on both sides so it can't be regular card stock.

I'm thinking they are printed on the 1991 Topps Traded (factory set) card stock. Pretty sure I have a copy of one somewhere, I'll dig around for it.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

I'm thinking they are printed on the 1991 Topps Traded (factory set) card stock. Pretty sure I have a copy of one somewhere, I'll dig around for it.

That would be grate Dylan. I think almost every thing Topps made that year had the white backs except their regular issue BB cards.

[bn2cardz]

I decided to take the time to do overlays of the 5 I have to show the cropping differences.

To do the overlays I took scans from COMC to layover because of this and my rushing the alignments aren't the best, but you can still tell the differences pretty easily. Some of have major differences and some very minor.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Steve have you seen any of the newer Heidlelberg printing machines? I got to see a new multi million dollar model about 5-7 years ago and they do everything for you. No adjusting of anything, they even had an eye for the color.

I haven't seen any of the new stuff in person. I talked a bit with a guy in the stamp club who has worked from the era I was in briefly until very recently, and learned a bit about the new digital stuff that works directly from the computer files to a plate made on the press. Pretty impressive stuff.

I did see a Heidelberg-Harris 6 color press being built. They were testing out making a metric spec press here in the US. They were a very early adopter of what's called integrated supply - where the company has maybe 3-5 suppliers for everything and gets massive discounts based on volume. They were doing that when most everyone was doing "just in time delivery" for parts and supplies.
The company I was with was a distributor for a German hydraulic fitting company and I specialized in finding the less common stuff and identifying what customers wanted. HH came to me from the main office because their integrated supply partner for hydraulic stuff had to be told what page in what catalog a fitting was on even when given the part number At the time I knew our brands part numbers without looking them up, and knew their suppliers brand fairly well. maybe 20% without looking in the book.

Over the course of a few months they bought what would turn out for some parts to be every piece available in the US aside from a few in stock at other distributors. One size of copper tube I had to get specially redrawn for them since the usual coils didn't work well with the compression fittings.

Got to see one of the two they made when I dropped some stuff off at the factory. Massive machine.


Steve B

[jacksoncoupage]

These are definitely printed on 1991 Topps Traded "white" card stock.

Also added a quick blurb with link to this thread on my blog.

[SikSyko]

Could be them testing the O-Pee-Chee cards. They had the same fronts of the Topps sey with the white cards stock bilingual backs.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

These are definitely printed on 1991 Topps Traded "white" card stock.

Also added a quick blurb with link to this thread on my blog.

The one you posted is your own? Meaning there are at least two copies of McRae/Lefferts.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

The one you posted is your own? Meaning there are at least two copies of McRae/Lefferts.

That's correct.

[vthobby]

I have similar cards from 1985 Topps and they cam directly from a Tiffany Set. The ENTIRE set was an error with each card having a corresponding card that lined up with each other so to speak.

I was able to buy these 2 from my local dealer who saw the Tiffany Set and the guy was pulling these right from the set!

The collector only sold my local shop a few of the errors (don't ask me why he broke this unique set but oh well!). I was late to the game and only got these 2 cards.

The Pendleton front on the right is Glossy and the front on the left is not. Similar on the backs, if the front is glossy then the back is not and so forth.

I think someone in this thread mentioned the possibility of these and the 1991s coming from Tiffany Sets and I can confirm that is exactly where they originated. I of course can't be sure on the 1991s but seeing these are very similar, I'd bet that they were.

Peace, Mike

DSCN1633.jpg

DSCN1634.jpg

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

I think someone in this thread mentioned the possibility of these and the 1991s coming from Tiffany Sets and I can confirm that is exactly where they originated. I of course can't be sure on the 1991s but seeing these are very similar, I'd bet that they were.

Peace, Mike

The only thing though is that these 1991 doublefronts feature different photo and design elements than the pack issued or tiffany set versions.

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

The only thing though is that these 1991 doublefronts feature different photo and design elements than the pack issued or tiffany set versions.

Ok, missed that. Different theory needed on 1991s I guess!

Thanks for pointing that out,

Mike

[roarfrom34]

When I first saw this thread I thought I had one of these cards, as well but when I checked tonight I noted the card I have is actually a 1992 Topps card with Manny Lee being the regular/glossy side and Cal Ripken being the matte/dull side:

[bnorth]

Got to check one of these amazing cards out in hand, Thanks Andy. It is my belief that they are printed on the same card stock as the All-Star Game Commemorative Set. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ken-Griffey-...3AX&rmvSB=true I compared the card stock and thickness to every 1991 Topps product I have including all the store brands they print and it was the only one that was the same exact thickness.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Got to check one of these amazing cards out in hand, Thanks Andy. It is my belief that they are printed on the same card stock as the All-Star Game Commemorative Set. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ken-Griffey-...3AX&rmvSB=true I compared the card stock and thickness to every 1991 Topps product I have including all the store brands they print and it was the only one that was the same exact thickness.

Thank you Ben for adding your insight. The ability to analyze them is a silver lining of them not being slabbed.