T207 Anonymous

[RaidonCollects]

Hi everyone!

Just wanted to ask you on your opinions on the factory #25 T207 Anonymous', what brand do you think it was packaged with?

It is almost certain that factory 3's were issued with Coupon cigarettes.

A previous post on this board suggested Sweet Caporal issued the #25's but I'm not too sure, because:

-Sweet Caporal was not given to Ligget & Myers in 1911 (L&M are thought to have produced all/most T207s).

-T207 Anon #25's are incredibly scarce, if a massive brand such as Sweet Caporal had produced these, more would have been produced and more would have been preserved.

I am by no ways a T207 expert, so experts feel free to correct me, but I believe Drum/Drummond could have produced these as:

-I believe Drum was acquired by L&M in 1911, not 100% certain.

-Drum wasn't particularly popular, so little were produced, that explains the Anon #25's scarcity.

-Drum's were packaged with cards at factory #25 in the T206 issue, it could be the same case with T207s.

Let me know about your particular theories and please let me know if my theory is possible/impossible.

~Owen

P.S: Sorry for the bad grammar

[trdcrdkid]

In Lionel Carter's 1956 article on T207s that I posted here:

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=217590

he lists the brands that issued T207s as Broadleaf, Coupon, Cycle, Napoleon, and Recruit. I assume that his mention of Coupon is referring to the anonymous T207s from Factory 3, since that's the same factory where the T213 type 1 Coupons were packaged -- though if so, that's a remarkably sophisticated bit of knowledge for Carter to have had 60 years ago. I'm not sure if he even knew about the anonymous Factory 25s, and I don't have anything useful to add, though your suggestion of Drum sounds like a reasonable one.

[rhettyeakley]

Not a big leap to make on the Fac 3 backs since Coupon is pretty much the only manufacturer that issued cards (sports and non-sports) out of Factory No. 3 in LA. (Exception being Red Sun)

Factory No. 25 on the other hand could literally be one of a dozen or so manufacturers, short of finding one still housed in the original packaging (which does still happen by the way) we will likely never know.

The best guesses are probably Piedmont, Old Mill, Sovereign, American Beauty, Drum, Sweet Caporal, or even a Factory 25 Recruit (Recruit produced cards out of that factory as well but no Fac. 25 Recruit backs are known in T207).

The other possibilities (longshots) are Richmond Straight Cut, Fatima, Egyptian Oasis, or Carolina Brights.

[RaidonCollects]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Not a big leap to make on the Fac 3 backs since Coupon is pretty much the only manufacturer that issued cards (sports and non-sports) out of Factory No. 3 in LA. (Exception being Red Sun)

Factory No. 25 on the other hand could literally be one of a dozen or so manufacturers, short of finding one still housed in the original packaging (which does still happen by the way) we will likely never know.

The best guesses are probably Piedmont, Old Mill, Sovereign, American Beauty, Drum, Sweet Caporal, or even a Factory 25 Recruit (Recruit produced cards out of that factory as well but no Fac. 25 Recruit backs are known in T207).

The other possibilities (longshots) are Richmond Straight Cut, Fatima, Egyptian Oasis, or Carolina Brights.

Thanks for the input!

However, I still believe that L&M issued all T207, that's why I don't think Sweet Caporal and Sovereign cannot be the #25's.

I know for a fact that these brands belonged to L&M:

American Beauty
Coupon
DRUMmond
Fatima
Home Run
Imperiales
King Bee
Napoleon
Piedmont
Recruit
Red Man

I'm not 100% sure if these went to L&M.

Broad Leaf
Cycle
Old Mill
Red Cross

Your Factory #25 Recruit theory sounds plausible, as does any of the above brands.

-Owen

[RCMcKenzie]

From this thread it seems that T207 Anon Factory 3's are widely accepted as not only Coupons, but also T207. Why is this not hotly contested by T207 experts? Also, why do T216 collectors group the thin backed cards with their other T216 without even shrugging their shoulders?

[frohme]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

From this thread it seems that T207 Anon Factory 3's are widely accepted as not only Coupons, but also T207. Why is this not hotly contested by T207 experts?

(formatting mine)

While I don't consider myself a T207 expert, I do like the set and have studied it a bit.

On T207 and Factory 3, there are mysteries. As for the Coupon aspect of things, I'll say I'm decidedly unconvinced, but would not be surprised to find that they were not (intended to be) Coupon. The current explanations are convenient, but not persuasive, though I agree with Rhett in that it is an easy/logical/not-so-big leap to make . Not enough research has been done in the area to rule it in or out, IMO.

I'm making an assumption here as to the second part of your question, but as to whether or not they are T207 - the way T213-1 are considered not T206 by many/most(?)) - I'd say that most board members who care about would say "Burdick didn't separate them, we shouldn't either". Yes, they are a subset, were produced with (only slightly) different stock, have identical fronts ... but here we are. To me they are clearly T207, more so than T213-1 are T206. The fact that Anon Fac 25 also exist may make it easier to call them all T207 than to separate them

To an earlier point, Lionel Carter almost certainly knew of the Anon Fac 25 cards (examples were in his collection)... whether he did in 1956, though ... hard to say

--
Mike

[frohme]

Originally Posted by RaidonCollects

Thanks for the input!

However, I still believe that L&M issued all T207, that's why I don't think Sweet Caporal and Sovereign cannot be the #25's.

[...]

I'm not 100% sure if these went to L&M.

Broad Leaf
Cycle
Old Mill
Red Cross

Your Factory #25 Recruit theory sounds plausible, as does any of the above brands.

-Owen

I believe Red Cross was a P. Lorillard brand before being assimilated by the trust - if I recall, it went back to the company as part of the dissolution, and not to L&M. There may also be some question about the Napoleon brand, but my memory is foggy and my research was on a computer that died an untimely death...

Whether much (or any) of the T207 stuff was in some stage of concept/early production before the breakup is a topic that hasn't been discussed much, but if you've ever been through a large company breakup or acquisition you know that it doesn't happen overnight ... these days it can take years.

For a basic argument against that, see Tim N's article on T207 in various VCBC issues, specifically the detective work on those cards where the back text can be tied to specific timing based on actual 1912 season happenings. We know they must have been developing material well into the 1912 season...

-- Mike