1935 National Chicle Premiums

[TanksAndSpartans]

Can anyone point me to a good checklist for these preferably with photos large enough to see the action? (On several of the action photos, I've only ever seen small images and I can't tell what's going on).

Does anyone collect these?

And last question - the ACC designations:

R331 for the main set
R311-2 for the premiums

Is there any rhyme or reason for this? Maybe because one is more traditional "cards" and the other was grouped with photos? Unless its something like that, the premiums getting a lower number than the set seems strange. And a "-2". I would have thought maybe R331-2....

I'm especially interested in seeing the one with Ace Gutowsky. I wish he had been in the main set, but I guess 3 out of 4 from the Lions backfield ain't bad.

[jefferyepayne]

You are in my wheelhouse now, John. I collect these and have the entire set. Ask me any questions you want about them. It is a lot of fun to put together. There are 17 known premiums in the set.

Here is the one with Ace.



My understanding is that the R311 designation was selected by Jefferson Burdick to encompass all of the National Chicle Premiums and he used the "-1, -2" designation to distinguish between baseball and football. The baseball set is R311-1

jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Awesome! Thanks Jeff. Great photo - its my first time really seeing it. I appreciate it. Too bad Ace didn't get the better of this exchange

Great info on the "-1", "-2" designations - I completely forgot about baseball.

So the Beckett checklist is:

#1 Joe Bach
#2 Eddie Casey
#3 George Christensen
#4 Red Grange
#5 Stan Kostka
#6 Joe Maniaci
#7 Harry Newman
#8 Walter Switzer
#9 Chicago Bears
#10 New York Giants
#11 Bill Shakespeare punting/Notre Dame's Quick Kick vs. Army
#12 Pittsburgh U. in Rough
#13 Pittsburgh Pirates
#14 S.L. Morton/Touchdown: Morton of Yale
#15 Dixie Howell/A Tight Spot
#16 Cotton Warburton/Cotton Goes Places
#17 Ace Gutowsky/Steve Hokuf

Questions/Comments:

-Is the numbering arbitrary because I recall the backs are blank, right? Did Beckett match their numbering with the ACC?

-I like the inclusion of #3, #4, #7, and #17 - all would've been worthy of cards 37-40, in my opinion. Although I wonder if Gutowsky got in just by virtue of the fact someone liked that photo…. We may never know, but I'm glad it worked out to include him.

-They were really enamored with Kostka - interesting that his seems to be the only image shown in both the base set and the premiums and it looks like the premium photo was used as the basis of the card, right?

-#1, #6, #8, #15, #16?? College players? I don't recognize any of the names.

-Is #13 a Pirates team photo? I get the Bears and Giants since the set comes on the heels of the Sneakers game, but if its a Pirates team photo, that seems really random. Unless.... remember that letter from National Chicle someone posted once requesting photos? Maybe they were just making use of photos supplied by the team.... We could probably speculate forever - let me know if you have an opinion. Thanks Again.

[jefferyepayne]

Lots of thoughts and opinions on this set.

It's been expressed before that the Chicle set was supposed to have 240 players in it according to info on the back. Assuming this was true, they were likely planning many, many more premiums as well. 17 is a really odd number for a set!

My bet is that all of the individual photos (like Kostka) were slated to be cards in the set as well but they didn't get around to manufacturing them. We know from a letter sent from National Chicle to the Eagles that a collector has that Chicle had requested photos of every player on the roster.

Re: the numbering. If you look closely, all of the premiums are in alphabetical order by title (first the individual players and then the action/team photos) with the exception of Cotton and Ace at the end. My bet is that these two were discovered after the original checklist had been created so they just added them to the end instead of reordering them all and confusing people who already had the checklist by number. The backs are blank.

#1 Joe Bach was head coach of the Pittsburgh Pirates and one of the seven mules who blocked for the four horseman of notre dame. He has a card in the 1952 Bowman set (one of the coaches cards)



#6 Joe Maniaci of Fordham played for the Bears and Dodgers in the NFL

#8 Walter Switzer of Cornell

#15 Dixie Howell of Alabama played briefly for the Skins in the NFL

#16 Cotton Warburton of USC turned down an offer to play for the Bears and went into business in Hollywood

jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Jeff. Wow another (Rockne) Chicle/Notre Dame connection - I had no idea.

Great info across the board - I appreciate it. I'm glad this set got a thread.

[jefferyepayne]

Let's keep it rolling! I'm hoping this thread will encourage other collectors to start picking these up and work on the set.

For an unknown reason, three of the premiums are extremely difficult to find. The rest you will see quite often.



Joe Bach is the most difficult to find and the most expensive premium in the set. I've only seen two of them come up for auction in the last 6 years. If you see one, grab it!



Walter Switzer. I snagged this one early on before I even realized how difficult it was to find. I got it in a lot of premiums I purchased all at once.



Tarzan (aka Christiansen) is a bear to find. This was the last premium I found to complete my set.

The Grange is fairly common but not cheap! One thing you can do is look for a Grange that has been misclassified on ebay. Because these premiums don't include information on what the set is, I've seen these mislabeled by sellers who don't know what they are. They just list it as a "photo" of Grange. Sometimes you can get it cheap when misclassified like this so watch for them.

Hope this helps.

jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Jeff, Could you please post the 3 team pictures? Are the players names listed? If not, are you able to list them? Especially wondering whether Mel Hein, Red Badgro, Bill Hewitt, George Musso, and Johnny Blood (Pirates?) snuck into the team pictures (since these were some more of the guys I would've liked to see in the main set). Thanks.

[jefferyepayne]

Yes, each photo has a caption with all of the players listed. Not sure you can see the names here either. Hein, Badgro, Hewitt, Musso are in the photos. No Johnny Blood as the Pirates photos says its of the 1935 club. Blood was on the Packers in 1935.







jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Awesome! Thanks Jeff - those are nice.

[LuckyLarry]

Never seen nor really heard of these 1935 National Chicle Premiums are they cardboard or paper? How did collectors obtain these back in '35?
Larry

[jefferyepayne]

Hi Larry. Glad you popped in! To answer your questions:

1. These are photos

2. The wrapper explains how you can get them:



I hope that helps and keep the questions coming! National Chicle is one of my favorite sets to collect and talk about.

jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

I love how it says "These Wrappers Are Valuable" - its still true.

[tuckr1]

Thanks for the info and pictures Jeff, I have 2 of the 17 premiums, still trying to complete the 36 card set of the Chicles, What an awesome set love these cards. I will probably try to complete the 17 premiums after I get the first 36 done, probably in Poor to good range, some of these get pricey!!!

[TanksAndSpartans]

Tucker - glad you checked in too. I recently lost an auction on an Ernie Smith (pm me if you want details). The first thing I thought of when I saw it was you, but then I said - "wait a minute, I need that one". I should've told you - I'm not proud of it, I guess I'm not that selfless

Back to the topic at hand, one thing that always interested me was the photos that the cards are based off. Unfortunately, only in the case of the Kostka, do we have a photo released as a premium that looks like a photo that was used as the source for creating a card. Searching Google images, some black and white photos can be found quickly - Swede Johnston, Beattie Feathers, but some not so much. Two I always wanted to find are John Dell Isola and Homer Griffiths. Always wondered how Homer was playing football at the beach!

[jefferyepayne]

Time to bump all of the BST threads out of the way.

Here are a few more of the premiums:


Eddie Casey who's signature is on the back of each Chicle card.


Who else but the top dog! I bet this is the pose they would have used for his card. Any card creators here wanna take a shot at it? Do Christiansen while your at it.

jeff

[SMPEP]

You're killing me Jeff!

I was already crying over a scrapbook that I own because of the trimming of the Red Grange. Now I need to be upset over the other two as well?!?!?!

(As an aside, the scrapbook also had the Switzer- better than these two - as it just had trimmed borders. The scrapbook also had 5 others. Interesting to see that all 3 of the hard to find ones were in the same scrapbook).

I am feeling pretty good though that I passed on an offer for $25 for the scrapbook!

Patrick

[jefferyepayne]

Did I see that scrapbook on ebay recently, Patrick? I remember seeing one with some cut premiums in it and I was crying as well!

Here are a few more that haven't been posted yet. Enjoy!


Poor Cotton Warburton ... he gets a Chicle Premium and President Ford steals his thunder!


OUR William Shakespeare (kicking the ball). The Bard of South Bend. The Merchant of Menacy. If you don't know anything about this Shakespeare, check him out. He beat Ohio State with a TD pass as time ran out ... a game voted as the best game in the first 100 years of college football. All-American. 3rd overall pick in the first NFL draft. First ever draft pick by the Steelers. War hero. Business executive. College Football HOF.

jeff

[SMPEP]

Yes, that was mine.

Fortunately (?) it didn't sell. I may just decide to hand onto those now that I know they're so hard to get.

Thanks!
Patrick

[finalscore]

Great thread on the R311-2 premiums. Here is an interesting item - a salesman's sample envelope for the photo premiums. More information that confirms the National Chicle set was always planned to be much bigger than 36 cards.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Wow, when I thought the thread was dying, it got better!

Jeff, which player in the photo is President Ford?

Mike, that envelope is great! How'd you get it? AH?

So the cards only have 5 colors? That must be per card, not across cards, right?

What about the reference to Mr. Jobbers? Any guess who that is?

And finally, it sounds like the premiums were in the box, so when the store opened the box, they would have to remember to remove the premiums and hold them behind the counter - makes sense. National Chicle didn't have to deal with mail redemptions that way.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by DezHood

Wow, when I thought the thread was dying, it got better!

Jeff, which player in the photo is President Ford?

Ford is the player in the center looking directly at the camera. The top of his helmet looks kinda flat. Ford represented the East, Warburton the West in this all-star game.

jeff

[jefferyepayne]

The aforementioned Stan Kostka and his matching Chicle card.





Harry Newman. Winner of the Douglas Fairbanks award as the outstanding collegel player in 1932 (precursor of the Heisman). All-Pro QB his first two seasons in the NFL before getting hurt during his third season and losing interest in the sport over the next couple of years. College Football Hall of Fame.



An autographed version of his Topps AA card



jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Jeff, thanks for pointing out Ford.

Newman, Badgro, and Beattie Feathers were all key players who were hurt and didn't play in the 34 championship game. Only Feathers made it into the first 36 cards…..

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by DezHood

Only Feathers made it into the first 36 cards…..

Yes Beattie did ...





jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

One of my favorite Chicles - a football card of the 1st 1,000 yard rusher, but to me the background is equally special - as per a thread I started a while back and a bunch of folks jumped in to help out, the building in the background is likely Rockefeller Chapel/Laura Spelman Rockefeller Memorial Tower on the campus of the University of Chicago

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by DezHood

One of my favorite Chicles - a football card of the 1st 1,000 yard rusher, but to me the background is equally special - as per a thread I started a while back and a bunch of folks jumped in to help out, the building in the background is likely Rockefeller Chapel/Laura Spelman Rockefeller Memorial Tower on the campus of the University of Chicago

Yep, I remember that thread. Some of the backgrounds on cards are really cool.

Here are a few more Chicle Premiums we haven't covered.


Joe Maniaci of Fordham. Interesting blocking style by #18 and his unidentified teammate. It appears they turned around and launched themselves at the defender on the left side of the picture.


U of Pittsburgh vs. Navy.

jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Jeff - the guys parallel to the ground in the Fordham premium is pretty odd - I wonder if that was within the rules..... Fordham football - I remember in Art Donovan's book Fatso, that was his favorite team as a kid growing up in the Bronx, and I'm pretty sure it roughly corresponds to this time period - its interesting how many college teams that were big back in the day are no longer in the college football conversation.

Aside from the former president, was anyone ever able to pick out any faces in the crowd of stars or semi stars? The Gutowsky premium in theory may contain Dutch Clark or Glenn Presnell, but I don't see it.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by DezHood

Thanks Jeff - the guys parallel to the ground in the Fordham premium is pretty odd - I wonder if that was within the rules..... Fordham football - I remember in Art Donovan's book Fatso, that was his favorite team as a kid growing up in the Bronx, and I'm pretty sure it roughly corresponds to this time period - its interesting how many college teams that were big back in the day are no longer in the college football conversation.

Aside from the former president, was anyone ever able to pick out any faces in the crowd of stars or semi stars? The Gutowsky premium in theory may contain Dutch Clark or Glenn Presnell, but I don't see it.

Interesting question, John. I've been meaning to spend a little time looking up the numbers of the players you can see on some of these to figure out who they were.

Don't forget the Williams Shakespeare one I mentioned already ... he's not referenced in the text on the premium but it's definitely him kicking the ball.

My bet is that by now if there was someone else famous, somebody would have picked them out.

jeff

[jefferyepayne]

The last few Premiums from the set.


Nice action shot!


I dig the striped helmet.

jeff

[tuckr1]

Jeff do you have or have you ever seen a display box for 1935 National Chicles Football?? Or even a picture or any kind of display for this set??

[jefferyepayne]

I have not seen a box. I think I've seen other National Chicle boxes for some of there other non-football sets but don't recall ever seeing a football one.

jeff

[tuckr1]

Jeff do you have or seen original photos from the premium set?? I have seen the original art for the cards go at Auction but never heard of original photo from the premiums??

[jefferyepayne]

I don't know that I've seen one of those either. Anyone?

jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

I searched some old AH listings thinking a box must have come up at some point, but no luck. I did find examples of the original artwork from the cards being auctioned off though - one of the write ups referenced a "find from the 70s that entered the hobby via a National Chicle employee" <- not an exact quote, but that was the jist of it.

This is probably a stupid question, but in what sense was the original artwork used to produce the cards? My understanding is that the paintings aren't huge - around 4x the size of the cards, but I just don't get what the next step would be once the painting was done......

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by tuckr1

Jeff do you have or seen original photos from the premium set?? I have seen the original art for the cards go at Auction but never heard of original photo from the premiums??

This jogged a bit of my memory. I had an original press photo of the Shakepeare shot awhile back. No longer have it any more, but it must be floating around out there somewhere.

[tuckr1]

Do you have any clue who you sold this photo too??

Would love to get an original from the premiums looks awesome!!!

Thanks Tucker

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

This jogged a bit of my memory. I had an original press photo of the Shakepeare shot awhile back. No longer have it any more, but it must be floating around out there somewhere.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by tuckr1

Do you have any clue who you sold this photo too??

Would love to get an original from the premiums looks awesome!!!

Thanks Tucker

Sorry, no idea. Must be 2-3 years ago now, on Ebay.

I had no idea it was a photo match to a National Chicle premium at the time.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

This thread on Chicle Premiums has been great fun, wish we had more football threads like this.

There are very few rare/scarce baseball cards that have not been shown over the years in various venues. On the other hand there are still many football cards, premiums and inserts that I have never seen and I have been collecting since the mid-70's as an adult (well at least in age.)

I encourage more such threads from our top level collectors like Jeffrey and Carl, it is not only fun for the rest of us but very educational.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

This thread on Chicle Premiums has been great fun, wish we had more football threads like this.

There are very few rare/scarce baseball cards that have not been shown over the years in various venues. On the other hand there are still many football cards, premiums and inserts that I have never seen and I have been collecting since the mid-70's as an adult (well at least in age.)

I encourage more such threads from our top level collectors like Jeffrey and Carl, it is not only fun for the rest of us but very educational.

Pick a set and let's rock!

Pre-war / post-war. Regular issue / oddball. It doesn't matter. Anything you guys want to talk about let's do it.

jeff

[Hot Springs Bathers]

You guys chose what you want to show off!

[th38larg]

Has anyone ever run into reprints or repros of the premiums? Just wondering if there is anything a rookie collector should look out for.

[tuckr1]

Just reread this post it’s fantastic !!!!! I’m still wondering if anyone has come across an empty box? Or sealed pack or type 1 photo of the cards?

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by tuckr1

Just reread this post it’s fantastic !!!!! I’m still wondering if anyone has come across an empty box? Or sealed pack or type 1 photo of the cards?

Nope, nope, and nope :-(

No luck on any of these fronts.

jeff

[Madi$on18joshua]

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

Nope, nope, and nope :-(

No luck on any of these fronts.

jeff

Have they ever found an unopened pack, Jeff? Great thread, figured I'd move it back up there -lol.