T5 Pinkerton mystery cards

[Bicem]

I recently picked up this Home Run Baker card and was wondering if anyone had any insight into exactly what it is.




It’s not an unmounted T5 as it’s printed on thick cardboard stock (vs thin photo) and notice the wide borders (vs the skinny ones that T5’s have, shown below).




It’s also not a Pinkerton w530 since it’s a real-photo card and not a printed one.

The Baker card was actually used as a postcard by someone (although blank backed) and was mailed on 10/30/1911. I can post a scan if needed but it just says something along the lines of congrats on the Phily win (The A's completed their World Series victory a few days prior on Oct 26th).

I have also recently seen one other very similar card of Topsy Hartsell…


(posted with owner's permission)


So, anyone have any ideas? Some sort of new uncataloged Pinkerton issue? Or a production photo on cardboard stock that was used to create T5’s perhaps? Measures 3 5/8” x 6”. Thanks!

[Leon]

Hey Jeff
So are you sure it's not a photo stuck onto the cardboard after the fact? They really resemble the Pinkertons.

[HRBAKER]

We're sure.
That was what I was expecting when I bought it - but not the case.

[jeffmohler]

Hi Jeff and Jeff

I am certain the Baker and Hartsell are some kind of uncatalogued Pinkerton subset. At this point in time, I am theorizing that it is just made up of A's. I have a Cy Morgan and another card, which I will look for tonight. The Morgan that I have is a real photo card, but is not a detached photo from a T5. I bid strong on the Hartsell on ebay, but didn't get it.

Jeff Mohler

[HRBAKER]

Thanks Jeff

Jeff and Jeff

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Thanks Jeff

Jeff and Jeff

*this thread now reserved for Jeff's only.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hey Jeff
So are you sure it's not a photo stuck onto the cardboard after the fact? They really resemble the Pinkertons.

100% sure as Jeff said.

[CW]

....

[Bicem]

Awesome, thank you Jeff M! Looking forward to seeing them!

[jeffmohler]

Here are scans of my two. I guess the cat is out of the bag now.

[Bicem]

Those are great Jeff, thanks for posting. Maybe others will come out of hiding too.

[T206Jim]

I am a year late to the party and my name is not Jeff, but it does start with a "J".

I acquired what I anticipated would be a unmounted T5 Chief Bender photo in the recent LOTG auction. I happen to own a beater T5 Bender and a Pinkerton blank back Bender as well. When I compared the new acquisition to the other two it became apparent I was dealing with a different animal altogether. My new acquisition comports with all of the attributes of a potential Pinkerton variant many of you have described in this thread.

Below is a photo I have taken of all three variants side by side. Note the new type is larger than the T5 with more wood grain at the bottom of the photo. There is silvering to the new type so it is definitely a photo and you can see the qualitative difference in the image between it and the blank back which is in decent condition.

I would concur with the opinion that this is some sort of subset that Pinkerton issued for the Philadelphia Athletics, perhaps to commemorate one of their World Championships. I know this thread is a year old, but did anyone else discover further evidence regarding this potential new Pinkerton variant.

[Bicem]

Nice find Jim! I assume it is thicker stock than an unmounted t5? Certainly looks like the mystery Pinkerton set to me!

Blank Back

[T206Jim]

Jeff, it is not flimsy and probably most akin to a thin postcard. So this makes at least 4 known examples, all Athletics, any more known to be out there?

[Leon]

This did a boomerang back from SGC unslabbed.....so it's still in my collection...(and I should say thanks to Jeff for this quite some time ago)

[Jacklitsch]

Don't know if this adds anything to the conversation. Blank back used as a postcard.

[Jacklitsch]

Larger scan.

[T206Jim]

Ok, I'll take a stab at quantifying what I'll tentatively dub the "1911 T5 Pinkerton White Borders" variant.
1. The cards are 3 5/8 x 6 inches in size, larger than other variants.
2. They are real photo cards.
3. They are on cardboard stock similar to a postcard.
4. They have much larger white borders than the T5 cabinet photos or the blank back/scorecad backs.
5. The were printed in 1911,(T5s issued in 1911 and Leon's Baker postmark).
6. The set to date consists solely of Philadelphia Athletics players.
7. There are five known examples; Baker, Bender, Hartsel, Morgan & Oldring.
8. They have blank backs.
9. Speculation it may have been issued in to commemorate the 1910 or 1911 World Championship and perhaps in the Pennsylvania region given the postmark.

If this is truly a recently discovered Pinkerton variant it appears to be far more rare than any of the other Pinkerton variants. Can anyone add to contradict the theory posited above?

[glynparson]

I have yet to hold one of these in hand but can be assured by the pics and descriptions that this is another variant of the unmounted T5. I am not surprised they are all A's as i have stated many times the A's are the easiest guys to get by far. Not sure how or why this subset was made but also not shocked it has been all A's. For the mounts i see almost 2 a's for a player from any other team.

[joeadcock]

I am not trying to deviate from the thread's topic of a new variant for unmounted T5, but am curious about another one. It is mounted to a thin back mount, almost like construction paper. Obtained via auction several years ago.

[jeffmohler]

Jim - I think that list looks good. I was glad to see the Baker that got used as a postcard since that definitely establishes a timeframe for issuance of the set.

Joe - I have seen many T5s with construction paper type mounts. I have one myself. I believe they are original and not photos that detached from their heavy mount and then were reattached to paper. I suspect that demand was strong for the photos and Pinkerton went from an expensive mount to a much cheaper mount. I don't have any real evidence for my opinion other than watching this particular issue for a number of years.

[Bridwell]

Here's 2 photos from my collection. Both bought on ebay from different sellers awhile back. They are blank back, thin like a T5 photo, but slightly larger. They measure about 3 5/8 x 5 7/8. They are possibly like Jim's new Bender photo. Any idea if these really are Pinkerton T5 detached photos?

[Bridwell]

I'm curious if Joeadcock's sample is slightly longer than a usual T5. Is it more like 5 7/8 long? If so, it might explain the use of the plain cardboard mounts. The slightly bigger photos don't fit in a standard T5 mount. These 2 I have are a bit wider and a bit longer than the T5 I have.

[MartyFromCANADA]

Originally Posted by Bridwell

Here's 2 photos from my collection. Both bought on ebay from different sellers awhile back. They are blank back, thin like a T5 photo, but slightly larger. They measure about 3 5/8 x 5 7/8. They are possibly like Jim's new Bender photo. Any idea if these really are Pinkerton T5 detached photos?

Love the Graney. Strange they used his middle name. Thanks for sharing this one. I had never seen. Cheers!

[joeadcock]

Originally Posted by jeffmohler

Jim - I think that list looks good. I was glad to see the Baker that got used as a postcard since that definitely establishes a timeframe for issuance of the set.

Joe - I have seen many T5s with construction paper type mounts. I have one myself. I believe they are original and not photos that detached from their heavy mount and then were reattached to paper. I suspect that demand was strong for the photos and Pinkerton went from an expensive mount to a much cheaper mount. I don't have any real evidence for my opinion other than watching this particular issue for a number of years.

Jeff,
Of note this example on construction paper mount is a Philadelphia player. I have another one on construction paper mount that is also a Phili A. What player do you have? If yours is an A's player, maybe this is yet another subset done only of one particular team.

[HRBAKER]

With my T5s the photos are very close in size regardless of the mount type.



The T5 Mystery Photos" I have are longer (same width) and of considerably sturdier stock.

[glynparson]

Are available for a number of the teams and is unrelated to the length of the photo. I believe as another has already stated that it was a cheaper alternative to the more expensive cardboard mounts.

[T206Jim]

I think the longer 6 inch size, note the particularly wide borders at top and bottom on the examples posted here, and the thicker stock are the key difference between this variant and the other Pinkertons.

[Vintagecatcher]

Very interesting thread gentleman!

Looks like we have:

1) Pinkerton Cabinets (Real photos without wide white borders on photo stock)

These are normally found on cardboard mounts which came in a variety of colors (gray, tan etc.)...sometimes found on cheaper construction paper mounts...sometimes unmounted either having never been mounted or they have come free from their original mounts. I have been told original photos have been glued on only 2 corners of the photos.

2) Pinkerton Postcards (Sepia colored on cardboard) These are not real photos. These can be blank backed or can be found with a scorecard back. Commonly used as postcards.

3) Pinkerton Photo Cards (Photos on a heavier cardboard stock with wider white boarder which are larger than the photos used on the Pinkerton Cabinets.)

Patrick

[jeffmohler]

With respect to the Cleveland photos posted above it would be interesting to see the reverse side. Detached Pinkerton photos generally have a strip of glue residue on the top of the reverse side. Neither of my "mystery cards" have glue residue on the top of the reverse.

My understanding is that T5 photos were attached to the mounts only by gluing the top of the photo to the mount. You can see where the glue is by the wrinkling of the top of the photo on the Jack Coombs and Rube Oldring T5s posted by HR Baker above.

[MartyFromCANADA]

Originally Posted by jeffmohler

With respect to the Cleveland photos posted above it would be interesting to see the reverse side. Detached Pinkerton photos generally have a strip of glue residue on the top of the reverse side. Neither of my "mystery cards" have glue residue on the top of the reverse.

My understanding is that T5 photos were attached to the mounts only by gluing the top of the photo to the mount. You can see where the glue is by the wrinkling of the top of the photo on the Jack Coombs and Rube Oldring T5s posted by HR Baker above.

The checklist of T5's in Mr. Lemke's catalog has the Graney numbered 618 and the Smith 624, same as in the photos posted here without cardboard backing. Have to assume with the numbers correlating, they must at least be a Pinkerton issue.
BTW; does anyone have the George Gibson T5. Just want to see it.

[Vintagecatcher]

Marty,

Although a Pinkerton T5 Cabinet of George Gibson may exist, I do not remember ever seeing one in all of my years collecting his types.

Patrick

[MartyFromCANADA]

Originally Posted by Vintagecatcher

Marty,

Although a Pinkerton T5 Cabinet of George Gibson may exist, I do not remember ever seeing one in all of my years collecting his types.

Patrick

Thanks for the information Patrick. Disappointing, hopefully one surfaces someday.

-Marty

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Jacklitsch

Larger scan.

I am resurrecting an old thread as it had some great info. Great looking W530 Mack, Steve. Here is the real photo T5-Pinkerton type of Mack shown before in other threads. I love this mystery "Pinkerton" set...

[jeffmohler]

I see that another one of these rare mystery cards surfaced in Lot 622 of the fall, 2017 REA. The lot contained an Oldring card. The lot description referenced this thread!

Does anyone have anything new to add to the thread?

[T206Jim]

I won that lot, i’ll post images and the card details when I have it in hand.

Deleted

[Leon]

Originally Posted by T206Jim

I won that lot, i’ll post images and the card details when I have it in hand.

I saw that one but there were too many other things to go for. Nice pick up. I think that is only the 3rd one I have seen. Though that depends if some seen are actually just the photos from the cabinets. The cards are on card-like stock.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by T206Jim

I won that lot, i’ll post images and the card details when I have it in hand.

Thanks, I think.....won last night in LOTG

and always willing to buy more!!

[Bridwell]

Here's the backs of the 2 Cleveland players from Post #23. I'm interested to know if these are T5's removed from their backing, or perhaps some other issue.

[T206Jim]

You are welcome Leon, glad it went to a good home, but the Bender from this series is not available!

[bigfanNY]

I posted a reply to a similar thread. At one time I owned the Baker Bender and Collins from this sub set. My recollection was that my Dad and I were shown an envelope with these cards at a willow grove show in the late 1970's We purchased the 3 hall of Fame members and passed on the rest. I sold the Baker around 2005 or 6 and the Bender with a large portion of my collection in 2013. And it was resold on Ebay a few months later. Here is the Eddie Collins it is a very attractive card. And just like the Bender and Baker it has small mark that looks like it was attached to something at some point. You can see the card is Just under 6 inches in length. My humble opinion is that they were all at one point a part of a team display which must have been something to see.

[jeffmohler]

Here is a Strunk that I picked up on Ebay. I probably paid too much, but i like this little subset!

[jeffmohler]

I sure wish I could see the Cleveland player posted above. I would dearly love to know if this subset is made up of just Athletics or whether it includes other cards.

[T206Jim]

Ok, here is the latest addition to the set. I recently acquired these two Pinkertons. The McBride measures 4 x 6, is on thin photo paper and appears to have a thin paste residue at the top of the back. The Lord is 3 11/16 x 6 and is on the thicker postcard like stock, clearly it is part of the mystery set. I am unsure what the McBride is as it appears larger that most Pinkerton T5 photos.

Pinkerton McBride front.jpg Pinkerton McBride back.jpg



Pinkerton Lord front.jpg Pinkerton Lord back.jpg



Pinkerton-McBride---Lord.jpg

The photo quality on the mystery set is clearly superior.

Also of note is the Van Oeyen 1910 copyright embossed on the Lord. It is printed in the photo and is not applied directly embossed on this photo. Nice evidence of the age and photographer of some T5s and likely this mystery set.

Pinkerton Lord front emboss.jpg

[jeffmohler]

The McBride is a photo that was detached from the mount of a T5 cabinet. The strip of glue residue at the top of the rear part of the photo is the giveaway. Originally T5 cabinet card photos were attached only by a strip of glue at the top of the photo. A fair number of the cabinet photos have become detached from the mount over the years.

Lord is very interesting. None of the other cards in the mystery set have that embossing on it. I wonder if Van Oeyen, being located in Cleveland, included Philadelphia A's and Cleveland players in a limited run production of "postcard" sized photos. Now I really want to hold in hand the Cleveland photos reference earlier in this thread.

[jeffmohler]

I was happy to pick this card of Harry Davis. It is definately part of the "mystery" set. Has anyone else picked anything up in the last couple of years since the last post?

[Bjw1978]

I have a couple of 1911 T5 Pinkerton's (D. Jones & Stanage). They were originally on a cardboard mount. But have been unattached (you can see the thin strip of glue residue at the top of the back of the card/photo).

Those can be graded by PSA and SGC. But without the mount (i.e. photo with blank back), has anyone been successful in getting one graded as a "1911 T5 Pinkerton?"

[Leon]

I don't think I have seen a T5 photo unmounted, slabbed. As long as they label it as what it is, I don't have an issue with an AUT....

and my Pinkerton type...

Originally Posted by Bjw1978

I have a couple of 1911 T5 Pinkerton's (D. Jones & Stanage). They were originally on a cardboard mount. But have been unattached (you can see the thin strip of glue residue at the top of the back of the card/photo).

Those can be graded by PSA and SGC. But without the mount (i.e. photo with blank back), has anyone been successful in getting one graded as a "1911 T5 Pinkerton?"