E98 (more discussion)

[caramelcard]

Sorry to start another thread, but perhaps this one could focus less on value and grading issues. Finds like this don't come along very often and I know some of my E98 pals are pretty pumped about it.


As someone who has collected E98s for a long time, this new find excites me. I would love to pick up more of them and I don't care too much if they're worth less. Hope they are in fact.

To me, the interesting thing here is what this find might reveal about the cards themselves.

Let's talk about the possibilities here.

This find could've been the average or standard amount of cards delivered from the print shop to a retailer. They possibly could've picked the colors they wanted or perhaps the printers had run out of one color by this point.

Or this could have been the rest of the print stock that was never either inserted into a product or given to individual retailers. In other words, property of the printers.

I obviously don't know the details of why it ended up where it did, but the owners could've had some tie to the printers or the anonymous company that sponsored the production or they might've owned a shop and never used all of the cards as premiums (or just fell in love with them and kept them).

The fact that they were binded in stacks by twine is interesting. I'd love to know more about how they were binded (how many cards, even amount in each stack?) or any other details about how the cards were found. I think, if I'm reading it correctly, each stack was one player. That might suggest that the sheets were all one player.

Anyone have any additional info from Heritage? Any other details stick out to you guys?

Rob

[philliesphan]

Rob-

I'm amazed at how well the centering is on nearly ever card in this group.

m

[barrysloate]

Rob- my thoughts about it are pretty much what you said. Some retailer ordered a large group of these around 1910, let's say 1000 is a reasonable number, and started giving them out to customers at point of purchase. And not too far into it he gave up. Maybe he went out of business. Maybe it became too much of a nuisance. Maybe kids kept coming into the store asking for the cards without buying anything. Whatever the reason, the merchant took the remaining 750 cards, virtually all pristine and unused, put them neatly in a box, and threw them into his attic.

And I'm sure he was not the only one to do this. All over the country, for whatever reason, unused promotional cards went into storage. But what is so extraordinary about these is they survived for more than a century without being thrown out. The family never moved. They never cleaned out the attic. They didn't find the cards in 1960, and decide to sell them then because somebody offered the princely sum of $100 for them. They survived forever. Imagine selling a house to somebody and inadvertently leaving a million dollars in the attic? Well somebody did exactly that.

My story is pure speculation but I bet it's also not that far from what actually happened. And the new buyers of the house not only got a home but a winning lottery ticket thrown in for good measure. What an amazing story.

[caramelcard]

I think I saw there were no Lajoie cards in the group.

That's probably because Lajoie was the most popular card for this owner being from Ohio. He gave them all away or had them in his store/shop. (Not sure if this has already been mentioned.)

Marc,

Good point about the centering. The E98s had pretty darn good quality control and were sometimes diamond cut left to right like one of the Jennings cards in the group. I haven't seen a lot of miscut cards on the fronts, top to bottom.

Barry,

Great post. Do you know how many total cards were in this find?

Rob

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

I think I saw there were no Lajoie cards in the group.

That's probably because Lajoie was the most popular card for this owner being from Ohio. He gave them all away or had them in his store/shop. (Not sure if this has already been mentioned.)

Rob,

Not sure I agree -- at least 100 percent.

Bob M. long has said that the red Lajoie is one of the tougher E98s. If that card -- outside of this find -- could be found in the same numbers as other reds, then I would agree with your theory. But if a red Lajoie was indeed a scarcity before this find, it would make sense that there wouldn't be a lot of them in this group. (Although the fact that there wasn't at least one strikes me as odd. It is certainly possible that the original owner didn't have as many Lajoies to begin with.)

Hope this makes sense. It's definitely fun to speculate.

Rob

[barrysloate]

I don't know exactly but I think it's around 750.

I agree that the Lajoie's all went first. Can't explain why there are no Walshes, or only one Matty. Still some mysteries for sure.

And I know I'm not the first to think this, but I believe that E98 were not candy cards at all. They share designs with some candy issues, but they were distributed in a different manner than other E-cards.

[marcdelpercio]

Perhaps it's a combination of the region and player that makes certain colored cards scarce. For example, say for whatever reason that a high quantity of the red cards went to the Ohio area and that these were distributed as a premium. Naturally, Lajoie would be the first card that every kid would want to choose, trade, handle, etc and this led to a much greater percentage of red Lajoies having been long since lost or obliterated, while the stacks of the less popular regional players wouldn't get nearly the same demand and attention.

[caramelcard]

I don't think any cards were produced in lesser numbers. It's very unlikely since they were probably all printed in equal numbers.

I think it's popularity that makes some cards scarce. And, there are several aspects to this.

Common players like Dahlen, Vaughn, and Tenny might be more scarce because less folks held onto them. We see a ton of Cobbs and Wagners because they were already stars at the time and more people would stash them away.

On the flipside (as marc brings up above), certain player/color combos might've been more popular depending on where these groups of cards were distributed.

Cards like Mack that are semi tough might not have been even close to as interesting to consumers of the day as they are to us.

There are a lot of variables since it's possible this issue was available to retailers all over the region, but this find might shed some light on why certain cards are tough to find.

Barry, I agree that the set is most likely not a candy set. Of course, the only additional info we have is the Old Put stamp which makes it a tobacco set.

I think it's most likely a catch all issue that was used to support different products.

We have seen orange stains on several cards which complicates things a bit. The only reason I can think of that the cards would be stained is if they were enclosed with a candy that got a bit too hot.

For a while, I thought it was possible that only certain colors were sent to certain regions or that one color would be used for one product. (Old Puts support this theory). But, this find changes my thinking on that.


Rob

[Rob D.]

If we accept that there are more Cobbs and Wagners available today compared with Dahlen, Vaughn, etc., because Cobb and Wagner were popular players at the time and more people wanted them (which I agree with), then I'm not sure we can accept that the red Lajoie is scarce because more of them were handed out, and those cards subsequently were lost, destroyed, etc.

[Jaybird]

I agree, Rob. Can't have it both ways. Either they were handed out and cherished or handed out and thrown away. Lajoie was a big enough star that he would have been cherished (Especially in Ohio) along the same lines as Cobb and Wagner.

But, I think it odd to think it was short-printed either.

Maybe we find a newspaper article where the Lajoie was a redemption prize. Collect all the cards and turn them in and get a Lajoie. Or an intentional chase card that was printed but not distributed in as high a number? Many theories. Perhaps an article or ad some day will reveal the answer?

[caramelcard]

We can have it both ways if these cards were more prevalent in Ohio.

Edited to add: I see what you guys mean. Yup. you're right.

When I was collecting my master set, I personally never found Lajoie to be difficult to find, but I respect the opinions of others who have...

Rob

[Jaybird]

I don't get it. If they were more prevalent in Ohio, then the people would be holding onto their Lajoies and they would be in old timer's collections, right? Why would the Cobbs and Wagners survive and not the Lajoies if they were more prevalent in Ohio?

[caramelcard]

In terms of this find, it does make sense that Lajoie could've been missing because he was popular and not stored away with the rest of the cards.

But, yes, there should be more Lajoie cards then commons (in my opinion). Again, I do think there are more Lajoie cards then Dahlen, Vaughn, Bridwell, Mclean, Tenny, etc.

Whether or not there are less red Lajoies then other colors is hard to tell. It's the collector's perspective. I had one in my set and never thought about that.

A while back, it was said that red was the toughest E98 color. I didn't find any color to be tougher than another. It's hard to say. Even when you have a large sample like this new find. It could just be a regional thing.

Scott M.'s original find were all green and I believe in the Philly area...

In general, the hall of famers are easier to find with this set. But, all of these cards are pretty hard to find.

Matty is such a great pose that many collectors hold onto it and you didn't see a lot of them surface for quite a while. You see a few more now cuz the $ has brought them to market.

I don't know how popular Walsh was compared to the others, but I have definitely noticed less Walsh cards compared to the other hofers.

Overall though, I do believe with many of the candy sets that were printed in equal numbers that the hofers survived in much greater supply.

[chaddurbin]

i think bob always jump the gun a bit with caramels. imo none of the colors or players were printed more or less. it all depended on distribution method and survival rate on whether they remain today. who knows? there are many more finds like this that will happen well past our lifetimes. this goes for e94s also.

edit: there are no less walshes, or coombs, or vaughns, or red lajoie, or orange chase...just depends on what month it is and whether you're looking for one or not. i've had at least a couple of each on walsh/coombs/vaughn through the years and i wasn't even that hardcore a caramel collector.

[ullmandds]

And the very best thing about this find...is that it's not about T206...and it has people talking about caramels again!!!!!! Hoooorrray Caramels!!!!!

VIVA CARAMELS!!!!!

[Rob D.]

I agree that scarcity often is in the eye of the beholder. I had a heck of a time finding a blue Lajoie in nice shape, so that seemed like the toughest to me. I've seen at least three red Lajoies for sale since I bought mine, albeit all were in rough shape. And I'm not a good one to speculate on overall scarcity of colors, because all I was interested in were the Naps.

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

I agree that scarcity often is in the eye of the beholder. I had a heck of a time finding a blue Lajoie in nice shape, so that seemed like the toughest to me. I've seen at least three red Lajoies for sale since I bought mine, albeit all were in rough shape. And I'm not a good one to speculate on overall scarcity of colors, because all I was interested in were the Naps.

there you go, i remember my best e98 lajoie was a blue psa 4, my green was a 40. i don't remember having an orange, so that's the toughest for me?

[chaddurbin]

i think the smartest move was by jim selling his psa4 cobb recently. i'm in awe of how pristine the cards are, maybe this will inspire jim to tackle a high grade e98 set also!

[caramelcard]

Quan,

First off, you are/were a hardcore caramel dude.

There probably are less cards for certain players, but it's not because they were printed in lesser numbers.

[Jaybird]

Makes sense. Perceived scarcity is something that comes up on this board and with collectors often. Sometimes it takes years to figure out the real scarcity vs. perceived scarcity. I always think that items stay hidden until there is real money to bring them out.

I know there are a few things in my collection that the market would have to drastically improve on for me to move. And I'm sure it's that way for others as well. I'd almost rather leave them buried if I'm going to get what the current market is.

[wonkaticket]

Funny the other high grade set of E98's Scott M's greens (hi Scott if you're reading this) was also found in one cherry pile all the same color from an old time collection.

Crazy idea but do you think these were given out as sets and over the years have been broken apart?

Just talking out loud....

John

[caramelcard]

John,

Thinking aloud as well...

I think it's possible that one color might've been associated with a certain product. Not sure about the set just because one card at a time would keep them coming back to try to complete the set. I do think the checklist backs with these sets were intended to hook kids...one card at a time.

Rob

[wonkaticket]

Agree, just odd that the really gem E98 sets Scott's green and these Red ones were found all lumped together. Perhaps store owners as said above just tucked them away....

Fun to guess....anyhow.

John

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

John,

Thinking aloud as well...

I think it's possible that one color might've been associated with a certain product. Not sure about the set just because one card at a time would keep them coming back to try to complete the set. I do think the checklist backs with these sets were intended to hook kids...one card at a time.

Rob

Good thought, is there a predominant color for certain overprint backs in this set? i.e. are all "Blomes" a certain color? I've been around this era of card collecting since the '80's but have small knowledge of the caramels, so just thinking out loud as others...
Greg B.

[pcoz]

Greg, the only known overprints in this set are the Old Put Cigars. There are 15 Reds & 5 Blues known.
Pete

[glchen]

I think the Lajoies were handed out first, and the reason why there aren't more is simply that they were lost in time, e.g., as with anything that's ~100 years old, they became well worn and eventually tossed out since no one then knew that baseball cards would have any value.

Does anyone know how Heritage is selling all of the duplicates (e.g, the 40 odd Wagner's and so forth)? It would seem to be better that Heritage slowly sells the dups instead of dumping them all on the market, but who knows. Now that people know that there are all of these high grade cards from this find out there, it may depress prices until they are all sold. Who knows? I, for one, think it would be nice to pick up a Wagner or a Cobb from this find, but I wouldn't know if it'd be better to try to pick one up early or wait until the market settles down.

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by pcoz

Greg, the only known overprints in this set are the Old Put Cigars. There are 15 Reds & 5 Blues known.
Pete

Thank you for the clarification- E94 vs. E98. I'm glad I mentioned my lack of knowledge on the "E" cards. That being said, what are the major differences between those two sets as far as subjects and poses? I ask only because I do not know specifics. Is it possible that a "traveling salesman" type of situation could be the case with the printing plates of both E94 and then E98 similarly to what is evident with the M101 cards with all the different backs but the same subjects as were many of the E sets? Maybe the original customer that agreed to produce the E94 set decided that after they (Geo. Close) stopped ordering the insert cards the printer tried to sell the same print offering to others? I hope I'm making sense...
Greg B.

[barrysloate]

I think all the Lajoies were gone because those are the ones the storeowner gave out. Lajoie was a huge star in Cleveland, so that's where the promotion began. He never got around to giving out many of the other players because he quit doing it.

I think somebody said in one of the E98 posts that these were found bundled up by player. Maybe he gave them out one player at a time until that stack was finished, then moved on to the next one. If a customer didn't care who they got, he just reached for the top card on the stack and handed it out. Maybe several customers specifically asked if he had a Cobb, which explains why this group has fewer Cobbs. Who knows, there are so many different ways this could have gone down.

[Matthew H]

As Jaybird pointed out, 22 seems to be the magic number. Maybe the sheets were cut in stacks that high then bundled. Many of the players appear in the pop report with 44 cards, 22 red and 22 green. Interestingly, there was a stack of 22 orange Bridwells.

[RUSH2112]

Could someone explain why some of these are in slabs with a bigger opening?

I am thinking the ones in the bigger opening slabs, were to wide to fit into the slabs meant for these cards. I can see no other reason for it, unless of course, the guy in charge of sealing them put them in whatever slab was closest to his machine. A basement self-slabber wouldn't do something that stupid.