Was this really an 1890 Players League player cabinet?

[packs]

Hi everyone,

I saw this auction on eBay and watched it to its conclusion. It sold for over $900. I do not believe that this person was on the 1890 Chicago Pirates of the Players League. I looked at several known cabinets of the 1890 team and could not match him up to anyone featured on the known cabinets. Can anyone ID this cabinet as a player on the 1890 team?

Auction link:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/120799196399...84.m1438.l2649


Known 1890 cabinets:

1890 Chicago team photo. I know it says White Stocking but that has to be a mistake as Silver King is pictured and only played for the Chicago Pirates in 1890 and never played for another Chicago team, therefore this must be a photo of the 1890 Pirates. He is pictured in this photo to the left of Jimmy Ryan who also played for the 1890 Pirates. Comiskey's photo (top center) in the cabinet is the same portrait featured on his confirmed 1890 Players League cabinet.

http://i88.servimg.com/u/f88/11/88/38/43/1890wh10.jpg


1890 cabinet of Comiskey : Note the green lettering in the mount

http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetai...100&category=1

[TobaccoKing4]

I am new here and far from adequetly informed about these 1890 Chicago Pirates cards. But, I came to the conclusion that it wasn't a baseball player for a couple of reasons.
The first thing I noticed was it doesn't have the writing above the portrait that I saw on all the other graded examples I looked at, that there was a red flag.
I looked at the team portrait and I didn't think I saw him. I used the hair style as a clue I know duffy used one similar later on in his career but if you look at his picture on the portrait they are clearly different players. The only player on the team card with the same hair is Arlie Latham and there is an example of his card on google images.

Im really curious what everyone else thought about the card.

I think you are wrong on locating Silver King in the card also, unless I am mixing up your explanation. Here is a picture I found that is easier to identify the players. http://www.google.com/imgres?q=1890+...1t:429,r:5,s:0

[slidekellyslide]

I had it on my watch list, but knowing I wasn't really going to bid on it I never did any research on it..The writing on the back of the cabinet I don't think is period.

[packs]

I might have mixed his image location up but King is identified on the cabinet you posted as well.

[joeadcock]

The back of the Cabinet identified as 1890 Chicago Pirates. It appears to be mislabeled as you state.

The player appears to be TOM DALY.
He played for the Chicago White Stockings before 1890. The Chicago White Stockings ended in 1888.

The first cabinet pictured shows him right lower(from 1887)
Second cabinet shows him again right lower corner(he has a mustache), from 1888.

Steven Art Studios Cabinets are listed in the Standard Card Catalog, as either Chicago White Stockings or Chicago Pirates from 1890. He was not a member of either team in 1890. So, therefore, the penciled in caption on back of cabinet is incorrect.

Therefore, it appears the Steven Art Studios made Cabinets prior to 1890, assuming all their subjects were Chicago(he played for them in 1887 and 1888). If this is further confirmed, perhaps it can be corrected in future editions of Standard Catalog.

Of further interest, Heritage Auctions sold a Steven Arts Studios Cabinet clearly labeled 1888(see cabinet at very bottom on the right), in the April 2010 auction. The player is Duke Farrell. He played for the Chicago White Stockings. The difference between the 1888 cabinet and the one just sold today on Ebay is that this one does not show the date of 1888, in fact the only date is the incorrect penciled in 1890 on the back side. THE MYSTERY DEEPENS.

Interesting stuff.

[joeadcock]

Packs

Here is the auction on the Steven Arts Studios Cabinet that just ended few hours ago.
Compare to the other cabinets above, and I am sure you will agree it is Daly. His face is simply facing to the left as opposed to the 1887 cabinet where he faces to the right.

[bmarlowe1]

I agree that he does not match any member of the Chi PL club, but we can also be sure he is not Tom "Tido" Daly (who played with Chi NL 1887-1888) because the shape of his ear is different. Below left is Daly with Chi NL in 1887-8, center Daly with Chi AL in 1903. Below right the still unknown guy from the Stevens cabinet.

[MW1]

I agree. Not Tom Daly. He does, however, kind of resemble a young Cap Anson.

[packs]

To me it doesn't look like Daly.

[joeadcock]

Mark

Good piece of dective work. I concede when close cropped pictures in way you did and blown up, does not appear to be Daly. Though it is the closest player in likeness. My original inclination toward Daly was due to the composite picture of 1887 Knickers shown above.

Are you able to pull out Daly from that composite and blow up to approximate size and do comparison to the recently sold Cabinet?

Question now arises. If this is not Daly, or anyone else we can identify, might this not be a baseball player at all? Did Steven Studios make cabinets of non athletes? That would certainly seem possible as other studios did this at the time. Perhaps whoever wrote in the caption 1890 Chicago Pirates simply made an error in ID and hence it ended up at auction as a 1800's baseball player cabinet.

[ramram]

As mentioned earlier, I think you have to also look at the fact that the ink does NOT appear to be from the time of the photo. And, yes, the studio would have photographed anybody, not just athletes. A studio would have never survived just selling photos of celebrities.

Rob

[slidekellyslide]

Jonsstats sold this cabinet photo...I don't know if he took it on consignment or if he bought a collection and is liquidating it..that's how he works...anyway another cabinet photo that most likely came from the same collection claimed to have Dummy Hoy in the photo, but surely does not. I think someone pulled a fast one here...found a Stevens cabinet and just labelled it as a ball player.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1880s-BASEBA...ht_1590wt_1026

[TobaccoKing4]

Originally Posted by ramram

As mentioned earlier, I think you have to also look at the fact that the ink does NOT appear to be from the time of the photo. And, yes, the studio would have photographed anybody, not just athletes. A studio would have never survived just selling photos of celebrities.

Rob

I noticed this too, it looked like it came from a modern ball point pen and I thought I may have even saw some wet ink on it still

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by TobaccoKing4

I noticed this too, it looked like it came from a modern ball point pen and I thought I may have even saw some wet ink on it still

I have bought many items from Jonsstats over the years and he has always been a completely standup guy. I would be very surprised if he had anything to do with "wet ink"

As an example, earlier this year I bought a scored scorecard from an all-star game from him. After receiving the item I discovered that the scoring was from a game other than the all star game. Jon quickly refunded my money and when he later relisted the item, he included the information that I had given him about the actual game that was scored inside in his description.

While it may be argued that nobody should sell a cabinet specifically as a certain person without specific proof, I think we should acknowledge that it is the responsibility of the buyer to know what they are buying. We should also give the seller credit for high quality scans of both the front and the back giving potential buyers far more info than the average "small fuzzy picture auctions" that we are used to on ebay.

I had this auction bookmarked, but my first thoughts when I saw it were "that the ink doesn't seem period on the back" and "how do we know it's a baseball player". I never had a chance to investigate properly, and since it sold for more than my price range, I'm glad that I didn't spend the time doing so.

Both hi bidders look to be experienced ebayers, so I would expect that they were aware of what they purchased.

Those are my thoughts,
Doug

[Jacklitsch]

Here's a Daly looking the same direction:

[ubiqty]

Not to go too far off topic, but I recently inquired about the photo that jonsstats claimed had Dummy Hoy in it. When I inquired, he was very responsive and did end up telling me that someone at Huggins & Scott had told him that Dummy Hoy was in that picture. I ended up deciding not to bother following up from there. Just my 2 cents.

[slidekellyslide]

I found the H&S lot where these cabinets originated.

http://sep11.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=37361

Jocko Milligan cabinet looks legit...Red Ames looks legit...John Clarkson doesn't look right...I'm guessing they think Colcolough is on the Chico, California cabinet?? Not sure what a southern dood from South Carolina who played his ball in Pittsburgh and New York was doing in California?

[bmarlowe1]

Some of those are good, some not. That's Jocko Milligan in the bottom group. - (sorry Dan, missed your edit.) Gerhardt may be good. For Colcolough I have only one bad comparison image - I can't eliminate him. I think the Norwich guy is Highball Wilson. The guy labeled Pop Snyder is not Pop Snyder.

[bmarlowe1]

The auction photo below left is not Clarkson. The ear is similar to Clarkson's (center) but not the same - it differs in the size and shape of the large opening. The other substantial difference is the size and shape of the nostrils. Age does not account for these differences.

[bmarlowe1]

The auction photo (below left) that had "Pop Snyder" written on it is not Snyder. It differs in jaw line, nose, and most importantly ear shape.

[bmarlowe1]

The guy below left is the one I think they were claiming is Joe Gerhardt. I don't have anything that's very clear, but based on what I have and pose 185-2 from the OJ book, I would not bet that the auction photo is Gerhardt.

[slidekellyslide]

Agreed Mark..none of those look good...I don't receive the H&S catalogs anymore so I never even saw this lot.

[bmarlowe1]

The photo below left was claimed to be Tom Colcolough. The best comparisons I could find are below center (Pit NL 1894) and right (TSN 12-9-1893). When comparing him the the guy below center, the hairline on the right side is remarkably similar. But, the guy in the auction photo seems to have a longer ear relative to his head size (though the comparison photo dot matrix structure causes loss of detail). The woodcut below right was obviously carefully done and shows the right ear. Opposite ears are usually at least similar. Comparing it to the left ear in the auction photo - it is much smaller vertically. I'd say, the auction photo is not Colcolough.

[slidekellyslide]

I think it would be odd for Colcolough to get his pic taken in Chico, California...born, raised and died in South Carolina...spent every single minute of his playing days on the East Coast...not impossible, but improbable IMO.

[bmarlowe1]

The ebay seller is now claiming the cabinet left is John Clarkson. He isn't.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

The ebay seller is now claiming the cabinet left is John Clarkson. He isn't.

True. Didn't even have to look at his ears.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

The ebay seller is now claiming the cabinet left is John Clarkson. He isn't.

I saw that cabinet right when it got put up on ebay. I didn't think it was Clarkson then, nor I do now. I have looked at it at least 3-5 different times. It never struck me as being very close. Hopefully these miss identifications quit. Nothing against the seller as he is a friend too....but some of his id's are way off. best regards

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Leon

I saw that cabinet right when it got put up on ebay. I didn't think it was Clarkson then, nor I do now. I have looked at it at least 3-5 different times. It never struck me as being very close. Hopefully these miss identifications quit. Nothing against the seller as he is a friend too....but some of his id's are way off. best regards

Yeah, I don't get it. Someone must have sold it to him, telling him it was Clarkson - the seller is a great guy and I have bought plenty of cool stuff from him.

[Fred]

Has anyone brought it to the attention of the seller? I wonder if he has enough integrity to close the (faux Clarkson) auction? Do you think he'd refund the money to the buyer of the first cabinet he sold? I'd sure hope so.

[barrysloate]

Besides the fact that it is of course not Clarkson, the pitcher lived his entire life in Massachusetts and played ball east of the Mississippi. That cabinet photo was taken in California. It doesn't connect.

[bmarlowe1]

Of greater concern is the cabinet posted above by joeadcock (post #6) that has 1890 CHICAGO PIRATES written on the back. It's up to $910. I wonder who the bidders think he is.

[WillowGrove]

barry et al - been watching this item and thanks for giving me closure that I need not waste me time and money.

However, when I was doing research on Clarkson I found a site that mentioned in their biography of him that he went to out San Francisco (I think they said it was around the time he was a hold out.)

But I have checked multiple sites again and cannot find that reference.

I was up late - could have been dreaming. But assuming I wasn't, it's interesting that maybe someone not only thought he looked like Clarkson but had some facts on their side that Clarkson was actually in that vicinity of JJ Frye's studio on 2nd avenue in Chico, CA.

thanks for the research Mark and everyone. what a group we are.



peter

[barrysloate]

Peter- even if he was in California and decided to have his picture taken, it's still not him. I don't see even a slight resemblance.

[HBroll]

I alerted the seller about this thread so hopefully he will respond and tell his side of the story.

[slidekellyslide]

If you guys look above I posted the lot from Huggins & Scott where these photos came from. Huggins and Scott had them listed wrong and Jonsstats is selling them as he got them...there were some correctly identified photos and then some grossly misidentified photos as well...a mixed bag. H&S certainly failed their homework test on that lot...and if they had done any homework at all they probably would have made more money for the consignor by breaking the lot up and tossing the crap photos out.

[slidekellyslide]

So I contacted the seller to let him know that the Clarkson is not Clarkson and he told me it came from a major auction house and wanted to know why I thought it wasn't him. I pointed him to this thread....Had no one else from here contacted him about these photos yet?

[19cbb]

No more fake Clarkson. Well done.

[slidekellyslide]

It would be interesting to know what, if anything Huggins and Scott will do here because some of the cabinets were legit and already sold. It probably wouldn't make me happy to know that at least half of the lot was misrepresented when I purchased it.

[barrysloate]

It really bothers me that so many of these 19th century street clothes poses end up being identified as major league ballplayers, and more often than not HOFers. If I were a beginning collector, I would stay away from all of them except the most obvious ones, such as the street clothes pose of Anson from the Old Judge set. That's a no brainer. But not every 19th century caucasian male with a thick mustache is in the baseball HOF. In fact, 99.9 % of them are not.

[bmarlowe1]

He's still running 3 misidentified photos.

[prewarsports]

I was interested in this lot and bid where I felt comfortable at knowing that several were not legit. Had these all been legit the price would have been WAY higher than $1100 (3X-4X or more) or whatever it ended at so I think the free market already knew these were not all the players identified and the price refelcted this. As a result, I dont think a whole lot of harm was done because had they only listed the 4 legit ones and the couple of generic ballplayer poses without ID's I think the bidding actually does BETTER.

The free market worked here and the lot went for what it should have had they been identified correctly or all the bad ones simply removed, in my opinion.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Runscott

True. Didn't even have to look at his ears.

Correct, you just have to check for his giant forehead

[HBroll]

I got this email from the seller:


i closed the clarkson auction as per questions about the item 2 emails i received. some observations as per how i do business: 1. my information specifically to these cabinet cards was provided by a well respected auction house that i assume any advanced collector would do business with without hesitation (as per myself i have been involved extensively in the hobby since 1975 when i was 9 years old..over 35 years). 2. the last thing i ever want to do is sell something that is not exactly what i say it is (feel free to review my ebay history as per items sold and as per feedback) 3. i offer 100% money back guarantee on anything i sell. 4. i provide clear multiple scans of all items i sell so the buyer can without a doubt see exactly what they are bidding on. again thanks and take care, jon

thanks howard i do not go on net54 but if you so desire feel free to post my response to this issue. againtatke care and happy thanksgiving, jon