Sharp Elbows necessary in this hobby?

[mintacular]

Hi, this seems to have happened to me a couple times recently and it kind of bothers me. I was at a show and was in the process of making a deal for a largish vintage lot. Well I had the first box set aside that we came to terms on and we were then proceeding to the next "sister" lot. Another guy approaches quickly behind me and is staring at me with his beady eyes, etc. as he sees my one box of vintage cards. Well, he then asks the dealer "Do you sell any other vintage?" and the dealer stops talking to me and tells him that I bought the one box and we were in the process of negotiating for the other one or something to that effect. At this point I kinda look at the guy with a "back off buddy" look and continue with the dealer for the other group of cards. To make a long story short, the situation kind of became uncomfortable and also maybe drove the $ up a bit as the dealer (he sells mostly newer stuff and other items) realized there was other interest in these cards.

Anyways, has this situation ever happened to you? Isn't it poor etiquette to barge in if you are at the table first? Or is that just part of the game? Your thoughts are appreciated...

[Zan]

I usually wait my turn like a civil human being. When I am at a table talking to a dealer and someone else comes by asking for whatever, all the experiences I had were with the dealer telling the new customer to wait, or come back.

It's all about respect. Some people have it, some don't.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Sadly to say I have dealt with the same situation. There are the collectors that are out for themselves and don't give a rat's ass about others as long as they are happy with themselves that's all they care about.

I am currently going through a situation where a fellow collector is using my want list to start a part of his collection with zero remorse. Word gets around and people are remembered.

I recently had a card that some wanted and was ready to offer it until I found a past email where he backed out a deal. Needless to say the card was not offered.

I have learned that I would rather keep friends in the hobby than to trample on them. Too many good people in the hobby to let the bad ones get in the way.

Lee

[Wite3]

I was at show in the mid-late '80s in the San Fernando Valley and there was a dealer who always looked out for me (and his valued customers). He used to walk around with me and talk to other dealers and pretty much taught me show etiquette. I remember distinctly walking up to a table with him in which another collector was talking to the dealer about a card and there was another card in the case that I was dying to get ('34 Goudey Wide Pen). My dealer friend told me to wait patiently. Finally, when the other customer was done, I approached the table only to see the card was gone and sold to the previous customer. I explained to the dealer what happened and he said, no worries, he had another and because I was patient and showed respect, he would give it to me at a substantial discount. This made a great impression on me as a teenager. I now never barge in and always wait patiently. If I miss a card, no big deal, another will often come around.

BTW, I am still friendly with that dealer (although there really has not been a show in Los Angeles in a long time) 20 years later and he still tries to put aside stuff for me even though I see him only about once a year now!! It pays to be respectful.

Joshua

[GrayGhost]

These stories are so true. The only people ruder than ones like that are casino patrons.

[FrankWakefield]

Great story, Joshua. A good lesson.

[Exhibitman]

Not limited to the patrons, unfortunately. In 1991 I am sitting a table at a show when a collector standing at the division between my table and the one next to me asked for a common card. I had it and sold it to him for a few bucks. The dealer next to me--pig man in a mumu--threatened to kick my ass for taking a sale away from him. Nevermind that the guy didn't ask him for the card.

[bbcard1]

It's a wonder that the card hobby is still alive with the customer service practices of the modern dealer. I have far less problems with other customers than I do dealers who would prefer to talk on their cel phone and eat Arbys than sell me anything.

[D. Bergin]

Does anybody who sets up at shows ever have "The Tornado" show up at your table?

I haven't done a regular show circuit in nearly 20 years but still do one show a year.

I have lots of photo albums, memorabilia, books and little knick knacks. Inevitably I run into about 3-4 "Tornado's" per show. This is the guy who comes by your table, literally touches everything. Leaves all of your photo and card albums out of place, any singles boxes are left in a completely different order, stuff on display is turned upside down, sideways or on top of something else, he'll even reshuffle your display case if you're stupid enough to leave it open, like myself.

He rarely spends money before he's on his way to plunder the next table and you have to spend the next 15 minutes cleaning up after him to get your table back in a little bit of order.

[bh3443]

I ran shows over 4 decades and I've seen it all.
The elbow issue is a regular thing. I had on one occasion witnessed a fist fight over who was going to look at a box of 1989 Leaf singles next. My security broke it up but not before several punches were thrown and landed.
Our shows opened at 9am but for an extra dollar you could get in at 8:30. The early bird special was well intentioned but it caused many arguments over who looked at what first. It also caused the old :I'll buy those and I'll be back in 1/2 hour which usually meant never will I return! More yelling erupted.
Elbowing was the least of our worries when dealers used the bellman's cart and dollies as weapons and blockades keeping everyone away from their tables before these few dealers were ready for business, usually well after the show opened I must ad. I saw a dealer (more than once) ram a cart into another dealer or collector.
I always tried to see the good in everyone. However, pure evil exists in some hobbyists. Over the years I witnessed dealers and collectors clash in words and punches over silly things that translated into "I hate the world, so everyone's going to fel my wraith."
I tried reasoning with the problem hobbyists, however, I ended up doubling my security staff to eject those few that tried to ruin the events for everyone.

The worst part is that our shows were family events and therefore my family and other families saw these despicable displays of childish and sometimes violent and vulgar displays.

In closing, a bargain box could cause some real ugliness at a show!

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

These stories are so true. The only people ruder than ones like that are casino patrons.

Scott agree, that's why card shows like this are no longer running....

[Anthony S.]

Just stop showering 10 days before the show. No one will cut in on your negotiation. Simple. Effective.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Scott agree, that's why card shows like this are no longer running....

Thanks John. I almost felt left out until I saw the middle dancer. I really don't think anyone wants to see more of me than they already do (seriously). The dancers to my sides look kind of hot though .

[Ladder7]

Mody Gaga?

[barrysloate]

At least he left me out this time (I probably shouldn't have said that).

[NATCARD]

Seeing Bill post a thread made me want to chime in....
No being in the business for over 30 years and for 20 of them as a full timer and most of those years at Rotman Collectibles I have issue with this. A collector walks in off the street with a collection to sell. It is a fantastic collection and you are not 5 minutes into looking through it when "Other Dealers" get hawk eyes and are creating in their minds any one of a million ways they may be able to get this guy away from my table. They even at times will stand just feet away from me and the collector and yet 100's of feet away from their own tables. They are like piranhas. I am not saying all of them but there are some that will stoop to this level or I am sure worse.

Jeff W

[bh3443]

Jeff, that is SOOOOOOO right! I can remember several times at Rotman's visiting you as we picked up our supplies and seeling the very same dealers YOU took care of week after week trying to scam you and interupt your deals.

It was down right embarrassing and insulting. Here I was just trying to "do the right thing" and say hello to you, my oldest and dearest friend in our hobby and there are our customers trying to cause mayhem in YOUR OFFICE!

Well, at least you and I have clean conscious' concerning our behavior in our chosen vocation! Jeff, you are the best. I value our friendship more than anything.

Barry Arnold will be proud of us when he reads this, too!

Another note, Jeff would take out a several hundred dollar ad that he was buying everything at my shows. Then Jeff sets up and the other dealers start trying to horn in on Jeff's deals and even attempt to ruin our life-long friendship! Jeff and I work well together and it is sad that these few people could care less about what we made in decades over a single purchase to bust us up as friends!

Like Jeff said, it was a few, but man, those few drove us nuts! I'm proud to say that NOTHING ever came between Jeff and I and we are closer than ever these days! Jeff's like a brother.... he is the best!

I still send Jeff leads on collections, as recent as the other day!

[Tim Kindler]

Jeff,
When you brought up the "hawks" coming over and trying to cut in on your buying of a collection at your table, at least they were other dealers who paid for the right to buy someone's collection. I certainly agree that this is very poor etiquette and is disgraceful if you are a fellow dealer doing this to another dealer, but I got a beef with what I consider is a worse situation.

I did a show in Ohio last month where everytime someone would come in to sell to the dealers set up, a customer who was at the show hanging around for about 4 hours was "Hawking". The moment he saw someone selling stuff, even though they just got there and only one dealer had a crack at the stuff, he would wait until after they were done at their first table and then corral them over to a vacant table and go through their stuff and offer to buy them as if he were a dealer who paid to set up there. I told the show promoter that this was BS and was going to piss alot of dealers off who pay to set up and pay for the right to buy collections at a show. If I was the promoter, I would have told him to stop or get out, or better yet, pay your money and set up a table!. Now, if none of the dealers wanted to buy the stuff and he wanted to buy them in the parking lot or in the lobby of the hotel, so be it, you can't control that, but dealers pay for the right to have first cracks at a seller's collection at a show in my opinion.

Tim

[steve B]

Somehow I just can't imagine interrupting a deal. I can usually wait to make my small purchase, especially if the deal seems big. Eyes and ears open, I learn a bit. I had one dealer break off a deal and ask if I needed help, and I told him I just wanted one small thing and to help the guy spending real money since I wasn't in a rush. After he'd made the deal, we talked a tiny bit, along the lines of thanks for being patient and that's ok, besides while I was waiting I spotted something else I want. Worked out well all around.

I'm a big fan of train wreck behavior though. Not much better spectator events than card arguments or bar fights.

Industrial etiquette is similar. I was always taught that if someone was running a machine you didn't startle them, just found a spot inside peripheral vision and wait to be noticed. Old machinists seemed to appreciate it, younger guys often found it unsettling.

Steve B

[NATCARD]

Tim, I agree that a walk in collector is worse. Neither is any good though.
JEFF W

[Oldtix]

Ah, walk-ins. I remember struggling with "wolverine" collectors...so named because if they couldn't make the buy on the cheap themselves (and they rarely had deep pockets), they would foul it for anyone else by giving the potential seller ridiculously high value estimates.

The smartest solution I ever saw was at a show in the 1970s, where the convention operator stopped all the local walk-ins at the door and offered immediate public auctions of the material...fair to both exhibitors and attendees. The owners loved it (they knew they were getting the best price) and all interested parties had a fair shot.