CHIEF BENDER Ghost OverPrint Error?? STOPPED

[V117collector]

So whos the lucky guy? I'm sure someone knows

Congrats to the new owner, very nice!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=190318652899

[FrankWakefield]

That looks to me that it is as much or more likely to be where the two cards ended up front to front then got wet with water, alcohol, kerosene, or something else. Seems to me that it would be unlikely that sheets would line up like that if stacked front to front, so it seems something that would have been likely to have happened after the cards were cut. I'm not convinced that is a printing error at all...

[Leon]

To me it looked more like a wet sheet transfer.....That seller is normally pretty good and I am surprised he stopped the auction.

[FrankWakefield]

Odds are that two sheets, one newly printed, placed face to face, seem unlikely to line up like that so well. Those frames line up quite well.

What seems more likely is two separate cards, face to face, would be quite likely to line up that well. Seems to me 'we' jump the gun and want any ink abnormality to be something that happened during the printing process. A hundred years ago there were craftsmen that could print quite well, in some ways much better than what's done today. Still, it may be such as you say...

[danmckee]

I am with Leon, I am shocked that seller wpuld shut down and sell offline. Did the Levy's get it maybe? They love these printing freaks.

[tedzan]

I agree with FRANK W......

In the late 19th Century and early 20th Century, Lithographic printing was at its best. Front-to-front
wet sheet transfer just did not occur. The lithographers were true craftsman, they took the completed
sheets off the press and stacked them all facing up.

This error is the result of a some recent....whatever.


T-Rex TED

[Leon]

Those lithographers were true craftsmen, no doubt, but no doubt too they had print errors, scraps and freaks, no?

[barrysloate]

Leon- I don't consider your card an error, unless the printer dropped some acid before he came to work. That is printer's scrap, albeit a very significant example of it.

[Leon]

and this one?

[barrysloate]

That's an error. When the back of the sheet was printed it was misaligned. That guy wasn't on acid...just too much coffee.

[tbob]

Just curious, did the bidders know the auction was about to be closed down and given a chance to make a higher "bid" or was it just a bolt from the blue auction ending? Anyone here bidding on it know?

[Rob D.]

Black light, anyone?

[rdixon1208]

Would you guys that have more experience please tell me what you think happened to the back of this card. Is it possible for the ink to bleed through or do you think that two cards were stacked and the ink transfered?

[tbob]

Robert, I think that was a wet ink transfer when two sheets are placed together. This does happen. The Bender front appearing upside down on the front of the Lake is bizarre.

[Anthony S.]

Gotta believe if you had to bat against that thing on the mound it would be very disconcerting.

[FrankWakefield]

I agree with TBob on the Bonner Obak card.


Golly, guys. Imagine two uncut completely printed sheets of cards, fronts and backs perfect. What are the odds of laying a wet sheet face down on the face of another, and lining it up perfectly... look at those frame lines.

What is MUCH more likely is that the finished cards were placed face to face. And lots of transfers could occur from water damage... Those cards could have been in a kid's pocket and he sat in water or was in the rain... to be lined up so well is much more likely AFTER the cards had been cut.

I'm not saying there aren't printers' errors or printers' scraps out there, but that just doesn't look like it to me. Intelligent black light comment, thanks for that.

[V117collector]

Originally Posted by tbob

Just curious, did the bidders know the auction was about to be closed down and given a chance to make a higher "bid" or was it just a bolt from the blue auction ending? Anyone here bidding on it know?

I was bidding and was considering making a decent final bid near the end. No, I don't think I would've won, but who knows??

As for questioning the legitimacy of the ghost print. Well, the new owner will have the burden of proof.

[danmckee]

I was a very active bidder with a lot of room and I never had a chance

[danmckee]

Here is the response I got, he just lost a very active customer!

The card is no longer available for sale. Thank you for your interest.


- somersetvelvet

[rebelsart]

I would agree with my T206 friend Dan McKee that the seller left a lot of $,$$$ on the table by ending this auction early.

Back in January 2002 a friend of Scott Brockelman won a T206 Honus Wagner card with upside down overprint of Doolin on the front of the card. I have the image but not sure how to post pictures on this new forum. If someone wants to email me for the pic maybe they can post the picture.

While the front overprints are rare, I believe they are legitimate.
Regards,
Art M.

[tedzan]

Thanks for showing your Mullaney....as I knew you would. However, it is not a "Front-on-Front" example.

The 6-color inking on the fronts took time for the ink to dry. Whereas, the backs were pre-printed.

TED Z

[Matt]

Originally Posted by rebelsart

I would agree with my T206 friend Dan McKee that the seller left a lot of $,$$$ on the table by ending this auction early.

Without knowing how much he accepted, there's no way to know that. Odds are you're probably right, but I've had several occasion where I've offered a seller more to end it then I eventually won the card for.

[FrankWakefield]

The other images don't center and align on the Mullaney card. In that regard it proves the point that the Lake/Bender card is more likely a card/card transfer than a sheet/sheet transfer.

[HRBAKER]

That particular seller I'm surprised even answered you. I have e-mailed him several times in the past where he has misidentified or incorrectly listed cards in a way that would cost his consignors money. Never heard a single respsonse or noticed a changed listing. I believe he does a lot of consignment work as I know he lists for a gentlemen out of Atlanta.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by rebelsart

Back in January 2002 a friend of Scott Brockelman won a T206 Honus Wagner card with upside down overprint of Doolin on the front of the card. I have the image but not sure how to post pictures on this new forum. If someone wants to email me for the pic maybe they can post the picture.
Art M.

Wow, talk about a mixed blessing! You've got to believe the Wagner sans Doolin would go for a bunch more than the mutant card.
Art, if you want to email me at trophybob@sbcglobal.net with the pic, I'd be more than happy to post the scan here.

tbob

[fkw]

My Guess...

The card looks to have been (in an album or storage box?) then got wet with something and the card facing it was upside down transferred ink to the other card opposite it.

This is no way a print scrap or print defect IMO since the image of Bender is reversed. The only way it was done at the printers is as a wet ink transfer.

The Q is how/when did the ink transfer from the other card/sheet? At the printer or many years later in a collection that got wet?

[Exhibitman]

There is no need to resort to exotic explanations when a simpler one is readily applicable.

The Bender portrait is a mirror image of the actual card. That rules out all printing explanations involving double prints on the sheet and all but guarantees it was a wet sheet transfer. A really cool wet sheet transfer but still "just" a wet sheet transfer.

[FrankWakefield]

Ahhh... but what would William of Occam have said about the centering of the transferred image onto the underlying image... that to have been sheets lined up like that would have been near impossible, it would have had to have been a card on card situation.

[tbob]

Courtesy of Art here is the Wagner/Doolin

[ethicsprof]

Frank Wakefield,
are you saying that a razor was used in the card to card?
Sorry, just can't avoid talking philosophy.

best,
barry

[David R]

I love these overprints. Here's one of mine - the Lash's Bitters laxative ad printed on the back.

[toppcat]

What back is on the Wagner?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Ahhh... but what would William of Occam have said about the centering of the transferred image onto the underlying image... that to have been sheets lined up like that would have been near impossible, it would have had to have been a card on card situation.

Probably that since no one has ever seen a T206 sheet, any statements about the impossibility of the cards lining up when one sheet is rotated 180 degrees are purely speculative.

[FrankWakefield]

No sir.

Cards are printed on a sheet, somewhere out there on the sheet. The cards are on the sheet with the expectation that they will be cut apart.

The precision of the distance from the outermost card's printed frame on the sheet to the border of the sheet would be less than the precision of a finished, cut card's printed frame to its edge.

Print something on the center of a piece of paper with your pc and printer, twice. Then lay one atop the other, face to face, lining up the sheets, and see if the images align.

Then, cut the two images out with scissors leaving a T206 size border around the images, and now lay them face to face. I 'speculate' that the second exercise will result in much better alignment.

[rebelsart]

The T206 Wagner with Doolin overprint on the front is one of the known Piedmont 150 examples.
Art

[Bigb13]

I was also ready to snip this card at a hefty price. Not very nice of the seller not to respond to my email. Makes me think he doesn't care to much for his buyers. I for one will not bid on any of his items at all. Hope he loses a lot of business. And in this economy the last thing you should want is to lose buyers. Rob

[scottglevy]

I wanted that card, but it was sold before I could make an offer or place a bid.

Regards,
Scott

[V117collector]

Why did PSA grade the two back overprints authentic if the cards are not considered trimmed or altered?

Wet sheet transfers and ghost prints are given number grades, so why not the back overprints?