Would you buy a 1933 Goudey Ruth Raw?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bnorth

People print money every single day. I hear that printing $10 is the least likely way to get you caught. Sadly even that doesn't always work or so I have heard.

Cards are nothing but simple paper and ink. Take any picture to any real print shop and they can make as many exact copies on any type of paper or card stock you want. But yes baseball cards are magic and somehow special.

I doubt it would be impossible but it might not be easy to fake the uneven patina on pre war cards.
And don't be fooling around with the 144....(a 1 piece instead of a 2 piece, shown above)

.

[steve B]

As far as an outright fake goes, I believe it's possible to make one that will pass the grading companies.

There were few changes in lithography between about 1920 and the late 1980's. The sort of equipment the shop I worked for had is out of date for modern production printing but is readily available. A smallish press can be had for a couple thousand, and the other stuff is also available, camera, plate maker, cutter. Light tables are easy to make.

The stock wouldn't be that hard, I haven't looked for it, but it should be available.
Inks have changed, but the art lithography market has a lot of available inks.

Now, the question of "undetectable" really depends on who is doing the detecting and how seriously they look at things.

The angle of the cut may be different between cutters. I'll have to give it some thought, but older machines had a slightly different path for the blade. So that may be detectable.
Paper that won't react to UV is still made, almost all acid free paper doesn't include brighteners. It has a lot that's wrong, but comic book backing boards are not reactive to UV.
So with some knowledge and some looking, that gets you nearly all the way there.

Would modern stuff like inks and paper stand up to something like and XRF machine? Probably not. Unless you really really did some research to get as close as possible.

Is PSA or any other commercial TPG going to use one? No, not for the forseeable future.

I saw a fake 51 Mantle over 40 years ago. Shopped around to several dealers, very nice looking card. My local shop had it and just handed it to me and asked what I thought.
After looking at it for a few minutes "Very nice looking card, too bad it's fake"
"OK, why is it fake"
"I can't put my finger on why, but it just is."
"That's what we think, and the other 5 dealers who have seen it"

That was probably 81? While I was either still at the printers or had just left for college. Maybe 82.
I think today I could figure out the why. I'm not sure PSA could, and would bet that card eventually ended up in a very high grade slab.

[steve B]

I voted yes. with the card in hand I'd be confident I could tell a lot about it.

To look at it another way, would you buy an ungraded Goudey common? Other than having Ruth instead of a benchwarmer, and a much bigger price tag, there is really no difference.

[packs]

Does anyone have an example of a convincing reprint they could show? There are several people who have suggested you could print a convincing 1933 Goudey today. Are there any examples? Seems like something somebody would have found worthwhile.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Does anyone have an example of a convincing reprint they could show? There are several people who have suggested you could print a convincing 1933 Goudey today. Are there any examples? Seems like something somebody would have found worthwhile.

They’ve declined to show any of these examples so far. Let’s see them guys, very easy way to prove your point.

[packs]

It's just not ringing true with me. People suggesting this are reducing the issue to this relatively simple and rudimentary process that anyone can follow in X easy steps.

Where are the cards?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

It's just not ringing true with me. People suggesting this are reducing the issue to this relatively simple and rudimentary process that anyone can follow in X easy steps.

Where are the cards?

That’s because it is not true, it’s just hobby folklore. An old wives tale that has circulated in some form or other for decades. From the ‘perfect counterfeit’’s of T cards supposedly made in the 50’s or 60’s using original equipment or the version in the 70’s and 80’s featuring unnamed dealers and movers faking many of the big finds (though never specified which finds) of vintage material to more modern versions like the Black Swamp fakes story to todays version of how some also anonymous counterfeiters are or readily can make undetectable fakes.

Nobody in any of these alleged counterfeit groups can ever be given a name. No place, nothing one can possibly fact check or validate. No examples can ever be shown. I have been waiting most of my life for somebody to produce some evidence. It has never happened, because it is not true.

We very well may one day have something like this actually happen, but pretty much every hobby has false tales like this of perfect fakes or crimes or very dramatic events that are always vague, have no evidentiary basis or source, and are just imaginary gossip people made up or talked about and over time get to be stated as if the possibilities are actually true. An evidentiary basis is so much less interesting than gossip, and so the gossip just keeps going stated as if it is true. People by and large believe whatever they like to believe, disconnected from what evidence there is to actually support the notion.

[packs]

One person said they would have no qualms with purchasing raw cards. But they also cast doubt on what I said about it being pretty difficult or impossible to reprint an authentic Goudey card today. If you believed it was possible to print a convincing Goudey today, I would think you'd be more reserved about purchasing raw cards.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by packs

It's just not ringing true with me. People suggesting this are reducing the issue to this relatively simple and rudimentary process that anyone can follow in X easy steps.

Where are the cards?

LOL, it isn't that it can't be easily done. It is having access to the equipment to do it without others knowing. You saying how impossible this is. Is like saying what ever you do for a job is impossible to do because we don't have the technology to do it.

Also I have posted pics of counterfeit cards in PSA slabs multiple times but nonbelievers like you seem to ignore those posts.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, it isn't that it can't be easily done. It is having access to the equipment to do it without others knowing. You saying how impossible this is. Is like saying what ever you do for a job is impossible to do because we don't have the technology to do it.

Also I have posted pics of counterfeit cards in PSA slabs multiple times but nonbelievers like you seem to ignore those posts.

Is there anyone that truly believes PSA never slabbed a fake? They absolutely have. Like that Cracker Jack Mack that was beyond hilarious, and others that are less embarrassing. There are lots of fakes, that is not the argument anyone has been making. No one can produce an example of a very good one.


How about you post the evidence and names you claimed to have in PM, but demanded I give you a list of any crimes myself and everyone I know has ever or I think has ever committed in order to get this evidence from you? . Just post your evidence. If you cannot provide evidence, you are not going to convince anyone reasonable.