T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I was waiting for some other people to reply Ted but since they didn't
I will say there is substantial evidence that there is no printing relationship of
the DOYLE N.Y. NAT"L to the elite 11.

I'm heading off to work and I will post more later but consider these facts
from the two name cards and plate scratches.

The elite eleven cards with plate scratches are spread out among different
sheets.

In the list of two name cards there are no examples of a 150 only or 150/350
subject mixed in with a 350 subject. If it's a 150 -150/350 subject on the
bottom it's the same on the top name and vice-versa for the 350 subjects.

There's a two name Dahlen Boston with Heinie Wagner on top.

Pat

I appreciate your response to this subject.

The Elite 11 which you noted with plate scratches, are these scratches only on their PIEDMONT 150 cards, or also on the PIEDMONT 350 versions ?


Normally, I would not draw any connection between 150/350 Series cards and 350 Series cards.....such as the Elite 11 group and the Joe Doyle
card, respectively.

I find it hard, though, to dismiss the repeated coincidences regarding the source between the Elite 11 group and the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L cards.
The sources of the Elite 11 subjects are from original finds strictly in the greater Atlanta area.

Four documented original finds of the Elite 11 cards have been identified as emanating from Atlanta area. And at least two original finds (perhaps
more) of the Joe Doyle Nat'L card are also identified from the Atlanta area.

Furthermore, the average of the numbers in the pop reports indicate that the Elite 11 subjects (PIEDMONT 350) and the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L (10-
cards) are quite comparable. I cannot believe this is just due to mere coincidence.


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

I appreciate your response to this subject.

The Elite 11 which you noted with plate scratches, are these scratches only on their PIEDMONT 150 cards, or also on the PIEDMONT 350 versions ?


Normally, I would not draw any connection between 150/350 Series cards and 350 Series cards.....such as the Elite 11 group and the Joe Doyle
card, respectively.

I find it hard, though, to dismiss the repeated coincidences regarding the source between the Elite 11 group and the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L cards.
The sources of the Elite 11 subjects are from original finds strictly in the greater Atlanta area.

Four documented original finds of the Elite 11 cards have been identified as emanating from Atlanta area. And at least two original finds (perhaps
more) of the Joe Doyle Nat'L card are also identified from the Atlanta area.

Furthermore, the average of the numbers in the pop reports indicate that the Elite 11 subjects (PIEDMONT 350) and the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L (10-
cards) are quite comparable. I cannot believe this is just due to mere coincidence.


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

Ted

The plate scratches are on the Piedmont 150 only I haven't found any of the scratches that have continued over to the Piedmont 350's.

Ganley and Shaw are on the left side of sheet 1A with Konetchy in between them

0 Sheet 1A.jpg

Dahlen is on sheet 2b

0 Sheet 2B.jpg


Karger, Lindaman, Mullin, and Schaefer are on sheet 3 with Lindaman in the right of center Mullin, Schaefer, and Karger are on the right end with Tannehill
in between Mullin and Schaefer


0 Sheet 3.jpg

There are no confirmed scratches for Ewing, Jones, Lundgren or spencer.

also the fact that Joe Doyle was printed with a Sovereign 350 apple green back suggests to me that he was initially intended to be a 350/460 subject
and the printing of any of his cards including the NAT"L wouldn't have began until long after the piedmont 350's were printed on the elite 11.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

The plate scratches are on the Piedmont 150 only I haven't found any of the scratches that have continued over to the Piedmont 350's.

Pat

Those sheets are really great.

However, they do not really tell us what the arrangement of the Elite 11 subjects were when American Litho (ALC) subsequently printed the PIEDMONT 350 backs.
We do not know for sure how they modified the plates for the 350 print runs.
The fact that just 133 (of the 143) subjects of the 150/350 series cards were printed with PIEDMONT 350 backs tells us that ALC did some modifying.

Originally Posted by Pat R

.....also the fact that Joe Doyle was printed with a Sovereign 350 apple green back suggests to me that he was initially intended to be a 350/460 subject
and the printing of any of his cards including the NAT"L wouldn't have began until long after the piedmont 350's were printed on the elite 11.

Yes, the SOVEREIGN 350 (apple green) print run occurred later in the game. However, that does not tell us where in the process Joe Doyle was initially printed.
Consider this.....the Six Super-Prints were also printed on that SOVEREIGN 350 sheet. And, we know for a fact that these 6 subjects were initially printed when
ALC first started the 350-only Series.


TED Z
.

[steve B]

There are a few things that complicate all of this.

The plates were only good for so many impressions, and after that were resurfaced and reused for something else.

The images were put on the plate using transfers printed from a master.

There's a lot of evidence of at least some of the masters being reworked at least twice during 150 production, producing cards that can be told apart.

Many of the masters that carried over to the 350 series were also reworked between series. 350's themselves were reworked during the runs. Most of the differences are subtle, some aren't, but don't get much hobby recognition.

Teds timeline of the Doyle variations is pretty close to how I see it, with a couple differences. And it's possible we mean the same thing, but word it differently. I'll paste it in below with my thoughts in red.

(A) American Litho (ALC) initially printed (incorrectly) the front of Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L card. Followed by the back with the PIEDMONT 350 advertisement.
ALC usually printed the PIEDMONT backs first and in a much greater amount. PIEDMONT was ATC's "flagship" Tobacco brand.
Pretty much agreed, The only difference is slight, that being that Piedmont production was probably nearly constant. Perhaps split into different specific orders, but Piedmonts were probably always being printed

(B) An astute ALC employee caught this error (Nat'L) and quickly stopped the press. They removed the word "Nat'L" from the plate which prints the captions.
However, in the process the printer left a tiny remnant of the "N" on the caption plate.
Plus most likely the missing period and part of the Y variety, and maybe the NV variety. That last one could be from a faulty transfer on a different second brown/caption plate OR a faulty transfer on the original plate(It's not entirely compatible with the stoning off process, while the missing period and the N remnant is)

(C) ALC then continued to print Joe Doyle N. Y. . cards. And at this point they also started to print the OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, and SWEET CAPORAL backs.
Here we diverge slightly. But just slightly. I'd describe it as continuing to print those fronts using that original but corrected plate and printing additional backs on those fronts to fulfill orders for those brands. It's maybe just a different way of saying the same thing.

(D) A keen-eyed ALC employee spotted the extraneous printer's mark and stopped the presses. And again the plate which printed the captions was cleared of
this extraneous mark.
Now the messy stuff happens...
Alternately, and more likely they finish production with that plate when it gets worn or the orders that it was for a fulfilled. Then produce a new set of plates for the next orders, or to continue to fulfill the ongoing Piedmont order, using a corrected master.
OR
As Ted says, the fragment of that N is finally noticed, and stoned off. Possibly creating the variety missing the period and part of the Y. (I don't think it's likely, but it's entirely possible. )

(E) ALC then continued printing the correct Joe Doyle cards (with PIEDMONT,
EPDG, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, SOVEREIGN, SWEET CAP, and TOLSTOI backs).

This could have been done from the corrected plate, or from a new plate made using a corrected master. It would take lots of study, but should be provable, as the new brown/caption master may have matched reworked masters for the other colors. That also means that cards from the original corrected sheet can possibly be told apart from the new ones.

It's also possible that for some of those brands leftover extra sheets of fronts were used up to complete orders. *

* Typically each stage of production would include extra sheets to allow for a complete order even if some sheets were spoiled. Having a bunch of leftover sheets, maybe even enough to cover an order from a smaller brand like Tolstoi.
What we don't know is exactly how the orders were written. If they just said something like "X number of cards with baseball subjects with Tolstoi advertising" Then leftover sheets being used for at least part of the order is likely.
If it was "X number of cards with baseball subjects, assortment A with Tolstoi advertising" Or specifying particular players, then it's far less likely.


The transition to the 350 backs probably allowed lots of 150 extra sheets to be used up. If the non-elite 11 subjects from the sheets were carried over they may be identifiable from leftover 150's.

Pat- I have pics of what I believe is a P350 with a remnant of a scratch that survived the resurfacing. I keep forgetting to send it to you to see if it matches any of the known ones. It could also be placed differently, making an ID difficult.

And again, this is largely educated guesses with some card evidence that may "prove" the ideas. And more that hasn't been looked into yet. It's mostly a matter of outlook, most people see that set as a sort of complex thing where most cards fit into five nice neat categories. I picture it as much more complex.
I'm finally getting a bit of time to do some of the comparisons I need to do, and have found three good sources of high res scans. So maybe...

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

There are a few things that complicate all of this.

The plates were only good for so many impressions, and after that were resurfaced and reused for something else.

The images were put on the plate using transfers printed from a master.

There's a lot of evidence of at least some of the masters being reworked at least twice during 150 production, producing cards that can be told apart.

Many of the masters that carried over to the 350 series were also reworked between series. 350's themselves were reworked during the runs. Most of the differences are subtle, some aren't, but don't get much hobby recognition.

Teds timeline of the Doyle variations is pretty close to how I see it, with a couple differences. And it's possible we mean the same thing, but word it differently. I'll paste it in below with my thoughts in red.

(A) American Litho (ALC) initially printed (incorrectly) the front of Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L card. Followed by the back with the PIEDMONT 350 advertisement.
ALC usually printed the PIEDMONT backs first and in a much greater amount. PIEDMONT was ATC's "flagship" Tobacco brand.
Pretty much agreed, The only difference is slight, that being that Piedmont production was probably nearly constant. Perhaps split into different specific orders, but Piedmonts were probably always being printed

(B) An astute ALC employee caught this error (Nat'L) and quickly stopped the press. They removed the word "Nat'L" from the plate which prints the captions.
However, in the process the printer left a tiny remnant of the "N" on the caption plate.
Plus most likely the missing period and part of the Y variety, and maybe the NV variety. That last one could be from a faulty transfer on a different second brown/caption plate OR a faulty transfer on the original plate(It's not entirely compatible with the stoning off process, while the missing period and the N remnant is)

(C) ALC then continued to print Joe Doyle N. Y. . cards. And at this point they also started to print the OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, and SWEET CAPORAL backs.
Here we diverge slightly. But just slightly. I'd describe it as continuing to print those fronts using that original but corrected plate and printing additional backs on those fronts to fulfill orders for those brands. It's maybe just a different way of saying the same thing.

(D) A keen-eyed ALC employee spotted the extraneous printer's mark and stopped the presses. And again the plate which printed the captions was cleared of
this extraneous mark.
Now the messy stuff happens...
Alternately, and more likely they finish production with that plate when it gets worn or the orders that it was for a fulfilled. Then produce a new set of plates for the next orders, or to continue to fulfill the ongoing Piedmont order, using a corrected master.
OR
As Ted says, the fragment of that N is finally noticed, and stoned off. Possibly creating the variety missing the period and part of the Y. (I don't think it's likely, but it's entirely possible. )

(E) ALC then continued printing the correct Joe Doyle cards (with PIEDMONT,
EPDG, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, SOVEREIGN, SWEET CAP, and TOLSTOI backs).

This could have been done from the corrected plate, or from a new plate made using a corrected master. It would take lots of study, but should be provable, as the new brown/caption master may have matched reworked masters for the other colors. That also means that cards from the original corrected sheet can possibly be told apart from the new ones.

It's also possible that for some of those brands leftover extra sheets of fronts were used up to complete orders. *

* Typically each stage of production would include extra sheets to allow for a complete order even if some sheets were spoiled. Having a bunch of leftover sheets, maybe even enough to cover an order from a smaller brand like Tolstoi.
What we don't know is exactly how the orders were written. If they just said something like "X number of cards with baseball subjects with Tolstoi advertising" Then leftover sheets being used for at least part of the order is likely.
If it was "X number of cards with baseball subjects, assortment A with Tolstoi advertising" Or specifying particular players, then it's far less likely.


The transition to the 350 backs probably allowed lots of 150 extra sheets to be used up. If the non-elite 11 subjects from the sheets were carried over they may be identifiable from leftover 150's.

Pat- I have pics of what I believe is a P350 with a remnant of a scratch that survived the resurfacing. I keep forgetting to send it to you to see if it matches any of the known ones. It could also be placed differently, making an ID difficult.

And again, this is largely educated guesses with some card evidence that may "prove" the ideas. And more that hasn't been looked into yet. It's mostly a matter of outlook, most people see that set as a sort of complex thing where most cards fit into five nice neat categories. I picture it as much more complex.
I'm finally getting a bit of time to do some of the comparisons I need to do, and have found three good sources of high res scans. So maybe...

Steve, there is another variation that's missing part of the Y but not the period

Doyle missing Y but not period.jpg


and all of the NV variations have a darker blue spot on them that's only found on the NV Doyle's.

Doyle NV Sov 350-2 - Copy.jpg

Doyle N. V..jpg

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *


...... Piedmont .......... Sovereign ...... Sweet Caporal___The "House" that created these Tobacco cards___..... Hindu ........... Sovereign


Circa Fall of 1910, American Lithographic (ALC) selected 66 subjects from the 350 series print runs for their 350/460 series. ALC printed the SOVEREIGN
backs of these 66 cards with a light color ink (apple green), instead of the dark green as on the backs of all the other SOVEREIGN cards. For more info on
this topic, check-out this thread posted in 2009....Sovereign phantom "350/460" series

I completed my all - SOVEREIGN set in 2007, which motivated me to construct this concept of a 72-card sheet arrangement of these 66 subjects. Note the
Super-Prints on this sheet are double-printed. **



V--------------------------- Six Super-Prints ---------------------------V--------------------------------------------v Joe Doyle (below Cobb)








Three of the guys on this sheet were not continued into the print runs of 460 Series backs (circa Fall/Winter 1910), because their Major League
careers ended prior to this period. The subjects are Simon Nicholls, Bob Rhoades, and Joe Doyle.


** Note
I show the Super-Prints double-printed (D-P) on this sheet, since several large T206 surveys have indicated that the six Super-Prints were D-P.


TED Z
.

[Kevin]

Jay just had some pretty sweet cards on the BTS and I was lucky enough to pick up a couple. Pretty excited about these guys coming home. Ted, I went through some searches and it seems early on there was some discrepancies about who was considered Elite 11 ; or am I reading this wrong?

Also, we may be in PA this week; my family and I will come by for a tour. I’ll bring some Uruguayan empanadas!