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  #1  
Old 04-14-2024, 05:37 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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Default Pre War Era Players you don't see in HOF discussions

Sure we see Sherry Magee and several other players in these discussions quite a bit, but Indian Bob Johnson is a name I never see in HOF conversations. 139 OPS Plus. 8 All-Star appearances and just shy of being a very rare .300 Avg, .400 OBP, 300 HR club member. Retiring in 1945 his 288 Home Runs was fairly high on the all-time list at that point. With the competition in his playing days 8 All-Star appearances as an Outfielder is pretty impressive. Amazingly he did all that while not even reaching the majors until he was 27!

What are some other names that you don't often see bandied about in HOF discussions?
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Last edited by Aquarian Sports Cards; 04-14-2024 at 05:37 AM.
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  #2  
Old 04-14-2024, 06:28 AM
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Might be slightly outside of the scope of what you are asking, but there are some players who played in the Negro Leagues, pre-war that should be getting another look.

Oliver Marcell is one of them. He was referred to as "Ghost." Judy Johnson considered him to be one of the best fielding infielders. He was good with the stick as well.

Dick Lundy, a Shortstop received similar praise from New York Giants manager, John McGraw.
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  #3  
Old 04-14-2024, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven View Post
Might be slightly outside of the scope of what you are asking, but there are some players who played in the Negro Leagues, pre-war that should be getting another look.

Oliver Marcell is one of them. He was referred to as "Ghost." Judy Johnson considered him to be one of the best fielding infielders. He was good with the stick as well.

Dick Lundy, a Shortstop received similar praise from New York Giants manager, John McGraw.

Spottswood Poles

The “Black Ty Cobb”

Purple Heart in France and buried in Arlington National Cemetery
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  #4  
Old 04-14-2024, 06:57 AM
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I feel like I'm the only one constantly scratching my head that Will White isn't in.
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  #5  
Old 04-14-2024, 07:25 AM
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All the guys I feel are overlooked have been discussed here multiple times. They're never getting in. But that doesn't stop me or anyone else from treating them as if they actually are: Cecil Travis, Riggs Stephenson, Charlie Grimm and, yes, Bob Johnson.
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  #6  
Old 04-14-2024, 07:31 AM
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Riggs played so many partial seasons; that was and will forever be his downfall.
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  #7  
Old 04-14-2024, 07:40 AM
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Bucky Walters and Stan Hack are two I like.
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  #8  
Old 04-14-2024, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
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Bucky Walters and Stan Hack are two I like.
+1 and +1. Love them both, and I collect them both. 41 Play Ball Walters and 35 Diamond Stars Hack. Two great cards.
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  #9  
Old 04-14-2024, 08:20 AM
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I’ve always thought Larry Doyle doesn’t get enough consideration. He was easily the best second baseman in the National League during his time.

Another guy who’s name isn’t thrown around a lot is Wally Berger. Never going to be a HOFer but what a beast before he got injured. Completely forgotten by time.
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  #10  
Old 04-14-2024, 12:16 PM
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Many players from that Era says Hal Chase was the best 1st basement they had ever seen. Babe Ruth chose him over Gehrig (Im sure it had nothing to do with his jealousy of Gehrig). Prince Hal never gets spoken about due to his gambling dealings but from all accounts he was considered the best fielding 1st basemen ever

Last edited by maniac_73; 04-14-2024 at 12:16 PM.
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  #11  
Old 04-14-2024, 12:17 PM
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Default Paul Hines

Paul A. Hines. Outfielder with the Washington Nationals in 1886-1887. 2,133 hits and 57 home runs in 20 MLB seasons. 1884 World Series champion with the Providence Grays. 1878 Triple Crown winner. 2-time (1878 and 1879) batting champion. 1878 NL home run leader and NL RBI leader. Hines debuted with Washington in the National Association in 1872 and played for eight other MLB teams, including the Washington Blue Legs (1873), Washington Nationals (NL) (1886-1887), and, in his final season, the Washington Statesmen (1891). During the first five NL seasons, from 1876 through 1880, Hines had more base hits than any other player, and he retired third to Cap Anson and Jim O'Rourke with 1,884 career hits in the majors. His total of sixteen seasons as a major league team's primary center fielder was not surpassed until Tris Speaker and Ty Cobb in 1925.

Paul Hines was one of the top stars in the early days of baseball and his statistics indicate that he would be a reasonable Hall of Fame candidate. Hines broke in at age 17 in 1872, and thus played his first 8 years in the 1870s, winning the first Triple Crown in baseball history in 1878 and winning the batting championship again in 1879. He ranks well above the average Hall of Famer on the Gray Ink Test and a bit above average on the Black Ink Test. He played 20 years in the major leagues, with an OPS+ that exceeded 140 in eight different seasons.

Why, then, isn't he in the Hall of Fame? It's frequently been charged that the Hall of Fame has stiffed worthy players from the 1870s. The key reason may be that teams in the 1870s played fewer games, and thus Hines did not accumulate 3000 hits or some of the other counting stats that Hall of Fame voters tend to look at. As late as 1883, when Hines was in his 12th major league season, he appeared in only 97 games because his team played only 98. However, when he retired in 1891 with 7,062 lifetime at-bats in the majors, the all-time leader was Cap Anson with only a few more at 7,680.
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  #12  
Old 04-14-2024, 01:06 PM
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Another "vote" for Stan Hack.

Played a slightly above average 3rd, 8509 PA for a .394 ob%...stuck around for many years after his playing career was done coaching and managing. He spent 34 years in the game once he hit the bigs in 1932.

His only bad season was 198 PA of his age 22 rookie season.
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  #13  
Old 04-14-2024, 01:42 PM
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I like Stan Hack...and not just because he is in two of my favorite sets. If you believe Baseball Reference ratings, he is 23rd, ahead of Collins, White, Kell, Traynor, and Lindstorm (he is the highest ranked prewar third baseman not in the Hall).
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  #14  
Old 04-14-2024, 02:32 PM
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Stan Hack certainly should be in Cooperstown. Besides the general absence of third basemen in the Hall of Fame, Hack's stats compare favorably to those of his teammate Billy Herman. Here's one of my favorite unsung should-be Hall of Famers, Lon Warnecke. Here are his lifetime stats, compared to a sure-fire Hall of Famer whose career paralleled his, Lefty Gomez.

Warnecke — 192-121 with a 3.18 ERA
Gomez — 189-102 with a 3.34 ERA
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  #15  
Old 04-14-2024, 02:38 PM
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Bob Johnson is always the 1st one I think of when this question comes up. If he was “discovered” just a few years earlier, or by a better team, he’d likely be in. As it is, he might be considered his generations version of Albert Belle…..offensively anyways.

Just not enough years of counting stats.
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  #16  
Old 04-14-2024, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maniac_73 View Post
Many players from that Era says Hal Chase was the best 1st basement they had ever seen. Babe Ruth chose him over Gehrig (Im sure it had nothing to do with his jealousy of Gehrig). Prince Hal never gets spoken about due to his gambling dealings but from all accounts he was considered the best fielding 1st basemen ever
Maybe, but he is brought up all the time in these types of discussions. I was thinking of guys you don't hear about.
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  #17  
Old 04-14-2024, 03:13 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoPoto View Post
Paul A. Hines. Outfielder with the Washington Nationals in 1886-1887. 2,133 hits and 57 home runs in 20 MLB seasons. 1884 World Series champion with the Providence Grays. 1878 Triple Crown winner. 2-time (1878 and 1879) batting champion. 1878 NL home run leader and NL RBI leader. Hines debuted with Washington in the National Association in 1872 and played for eight other MLB teams, including the Washington Blue Legs (1873), Washington Nationals (NL) (1886-1887), and, in his final season, the Washington Statesmen (1891). During the first five NL seasons, from 1876 through 1880, Hines had more base hits than any other player, and he retired third to Cap Anson and Jim O'Rourke with 1,884 career hits in the majors. His total of sixteen seasons as a major league team's primary center fielder was not surpassed until Tris Speaker and Ty Cobb in 1925.

Paul Hines was one of the top stars in the early days of baseball and his statistics indicate that he would be a reasonable Hall of Fame candidate. Hines broke in at age 17 in 1872, and thus played his first 8 years in the 1870s, winning the first Triple Crown in baseball history in 1878 and winning the batting championship again in 1879. He ranks well above the average Hall of Famer on the Gray Ink Test and a bit above average on the Black Ink Test. He played 20 years in the major leagues, with an OPS+ that exceeded 140 in eight different seasons.

Why, then, isn't he in the Hall of Fame? It's frequently been charged that the Hall of Fame has stiffed worthy players from the 1870s. The key reason may be that teams in the 1870s played fewer games, and thus Hines did not accumulate 3000 hits or some of the other counting stats that Hall of Fame voters tend to look at. As late as 1883, when Hines was in his 12th major league season, he appeared in only 97 games because his team played only 98. However, when he retired in 1891 with 7,062 lifetime at-bats in the majors, the all-time leader was Cap Anson with only a few more at 7,680.
Exactly the kind of guy I was looking for!
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  #18  
Old 04-14-2024, 03:20 PM
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Two pitchers from the 1800s, Tony Mullane and Bobby Mathews.

And one more recent, Allie Reynolds.

Last edited by kcohen; 04-14-2024 at 04:33 PM.
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  #19  
Old 04-14-2024, 03:21 PM
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My vote is for jake daubert played 14 seasons with 2336 hits and .303 lifetime batting avg but died still being a very productive player. Outside of maybe hal chase he was the best 1st baseman in baseball during the deadball era but was considered as a trouble maker based on trying to unionize his fellow player.
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  #20  
Old 04-14-2024, 03:48 PM
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I also think Paul Hines should be considered
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  #21  
Old 04-14-2024, 03:54 PM
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Johnny Kling
Babydoll Jacobson
Ken Williams
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  #22  
Old 04-14-2024, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theshowandme View Post
Spottswood Poles

The “Black Ty Cobb”

Purple Heart in France and buried in Arlington National Cemetery
Spottswood has recently been discovered by new home town of Winchester, VA, where he was born and raised, and they now have a field and road named after him.
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  #23  
Old 04-14-2024, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
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Spottswood has recently been discovered by new home town of Winchester, VA, where he was born and raised, and they now have a field and road named after him.

Nice!

I visit Arlington at least one a year and made sure to find him last year

He’s buried somewhat close to HOFer Jud Wilson


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Old 04-14-2024, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
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Johnny Kling
Babydoll Jacobson
Ken Williams
I like that you named Jacobson and Williams. Add in Jack Tobin and you have the outfield that is vastly underrated because it's never mentioned. Years ago I got 8x10 photos of all three players, then my dad, who has done carpentry since he was a little kid, made this frame for me. He wanted to look like the dugout behind each player, and even threw some sand into the paint to give it that look (doesn't show up well in the photo). Notice the frame matches the dugout behind the players
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  #25  
Old 04-14-2024, 06:43 PM
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Ross Barnes. He should be in.
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  #26  
Old 04-14-2024, 07:15 PM
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I'll second the Barnes nomination. Unfortunately, he doesn't meet the 10 year requirement, but neither did Joss and they let him in.

Maybe outside of the spirit of the question, but how about Jim Creighton under the "pioneers" flag?
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  #27  
Old 04-14-2024, 08:51 PM
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Here's a perspective that showcases tossers in classic prewar card sets.

Old Judge: Jim McCormick

T206: Jack Quinn

Cracker Jack: Nap Rucker

E121 American Caramel: Babe Adams

1933 Goudey: Wes Ferrell (already mentioned, worth mentioning again)

1941 Play Ball: Tommy Bridges


Brian
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  #28  
Old 04-14-2024, 09:25 PM
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Bob and Emil Meusel as well as Bob Johnson.
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  #29  
Old 04-15-2024, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
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Bob and Emil Meusel as well as Bob Johnson.
Bob was as big a part of Murderer's Row as Earle Combs, with similar stats, but Combs got in and Bob Meusel didn't. Some say because he wasn't outgoing with the writers.
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Old 04-15-2024, 06:53 AM
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I’m at Arlington Cemetery a couple times a year also, where is his gravestone?
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Originally Posted by theshowandme View Post
Nice!

I visit Arlington at least one a year and made sure to find him last year

He’s buried somewhat close to HOFer Jud Wilson


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  #31  
Old 04-15-2024, 06:53 AM
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I’m at Arlington Cemetery a couple times a year also, where is his gravestone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by theshowandme View Post
Nice!

I visit Arlington at least one a year and made sure to find him last year

He’s buried somewhat close to HOFer Jud Wilson


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  #32  
Old 04-15-2024, 06:57 AM
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Definitely worthy of discussion for the Hall of Fame: Bobby Veach, Detroit Tigers

Swiped from online:
As the clean-up hitter on one of the strongest offensive teams of his day, Bobby Veach was one of the truly great RBI men of the late Deadball Era, easily leading the major leagues in runs driven in over the twelve years, 1913 to 1924, that he was a full time player. Veach drove in over 100 runs in a season six times, hit 30 or more doubles eight times and smacked ten or more triples ten years in a row. In all, Veach played for 14 major league seasons and hit .300 or better ten times, finishing with a lifetime .310 batting average.

Veach was also among the best defensive outfielders of his era, regularly ranking among the league leaders in putouts, range factor, and fielding percentage. Despite being one of the most productive hitters in baseball during his years in Detroit, Veach played in the shadows of three Detroit outfielders who won 16 batting titles and were inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame: Cobb in center field and Sam Crawford followed by Harry Heilmann in right field. Detroit's 1915 outfield consisting of Veach, Cobb, and Crawford has been ranked by baseball historian and statistician Bill James as the greatest outfield in history.

In the eight years from 1915 to 1922, Veach had 852 RBIs and 450 extra base hits, more than any other player. The top five in RBI during these eight years:
1 Bobby Veach – 852
2 Ty Cobb – 723
3 Babe Ruth – 635
4 George Sisler – 612
5 Tris Speaker – 585

The top five in extra base hits:
1 Bobby Veach – 450
2 Ruth – 445
3 Speaker – 444
4 Cobb – 418
5 Sisler – 402
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  #33  
Old 04-15-2024, 07:08 AM
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Probably more of a what might have been than a real discussion for the Hall, but Bug Holliday is another player lost to time.

From 1889 to 1894 Bug Holliday hit 63 home runs, just two short of Roger Connor in the same time period. However, Bug got an appendectomy in 1895 at 28 years old and was never the same after that, hitting only two more career home runs.
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  #34  
Old 04-15-2024, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mq711 View Post
I’m at Arlington Cemetery a couple times a year also, where is his gravestone?

Section 42

I suggest this app to navigate the cemetery

Also, lots of ballplayers in that cemetery including one of two MLB players to be killed in WW2, Elmer Gedeon. I show off some graves here: https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=335674


Last edited by theshowandme; 04-15-2024 at 07:37 AM.
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  #35  
Old 04-15-2024, 11:20 AM
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Urban Shocker.

In 412 career games:
187-117 career record
59.0 WAR
60th ranked pitcher in MLB history (JAWS)

There are already 84 pitchers in the Hall, but rarely any grumblings for Shocker.
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  #36  
Old 04-15-2024, 11:57 AM
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John Donaldson and Cecil Travis.
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  #37  
Old 04-15-2024, 02:44 PM
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I'm a big fan of Cecil Travis, but his HoF case is difficult. You would have to include a "cosmic constant" evaluation adjustment factor to address his time and health sacrificed to service of his country. He just didn't get to play enough to support inclusion in the HoF. While dying young may have boosted support among voters for a candidate or two, the voters have avoided players with only half a career, regardless of why they didn't play longer.

There seems to be more support now days (at least in the media) for including players with very high peak performances even if they were not able to extend their career as well as others. Koufax would be an early example of this; Joe Mauer might be an ongoing one. Cecil Travis did not have a peak as "fantastic" as Koufax, or Mauer, while he was a catcher. Travis had one-half of a HoF career, but that is it. While it is reasonable to assume that he would have kept it up if the war had not occurred, it is still just an assumption. Assumptions make tricky selection criteria.
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  #38  
Old 04-15-2024, 03:33 PM
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Ross Barnes.
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  #39  
Old 04-15-2024, 04:06 PM
BillyCoxDodgers3B BillyCoxDodgers3B is offline
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Weyhing, Glasscock, Veach, maaaybe Deacon Phillippe.
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  #40  
Old 04-15-2024, 06:34 PM
ejharrington ejharrington is online now
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Ross Barnes.
100 percent agree.
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Old 04-15-2024, 06:44 PM
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How about Jimmy Dykes? His career numbers aren’t great but he played 22 seasons collected 2200 hits with a 280 lifetime average and a two time World Series champ. Then he won 1,400 games as a manager.

Wilbert Robinson is in with two pennants and less wins.
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  #42  
Old 04-15-2024, 06:57 PM
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Can't lie...bit shocked Bill Dahlen hasn't worked his way into the discussion, yet.

-edit- Nevermind, this thread is about the passed over, not the obvious. Doh.

Last edited by BioCRN; 04-15-2024 at 06:58 PM.
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  #43  
Old 04-15-2024, 07:06 PM
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Can't lie...bit shocked Bill Dahlen hasn't worked his way into the discussion, yet.

-edit- Nevermind, this thread is about the passed over, not the obvious. Doh.
Yeah I don't disagree on Dahlen but he's definitely one of those guys who comes up a lot.
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  #44  
Old 04-15-2024, 08:32 PM
Misunderestimated Misunderestimated is offline
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George "Piano Legs" Gore scored just over one run in every game he played -- he played in about 1300... Not surprisingly he starred on a lot of winning teams during his 14 yr career.
Also stole a lot of bases although the stats for this are ify...
He's sort of an earlier and lesser version of Sliding Billy Hamilton...
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I think that the only other run per game players (over 1000 games) are Hamilton and Stovey... Barnes is way over a run per game but played just 499 games.

Last edited by Misunderestimated; 04-15-2024 at 08:48 PM.
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  #45  
Old 04-16-2024, 12:56 PM
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George Mullin 228-196
2.82 ERA
47.2 WAR
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  #46  
Old 04-16-2024, 05:31 PM
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He always comes up in these conversations, but I haven’t seen him mentioned yet, so I’ll make the case for Lefty O’Doul. If he had never set foot on a baseball diamond as a player he still warrants a spot for bringing the game to Japan, and for his remarkable record as a coach. Factor in his talents as a major league hitter, and it’s absolutely criminal he hasn’t been inducted yet.
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Old 04-16-2024, 05:52 PM
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Another guy I’ve always liked is Babe Herman. WAR is not kind to him but over his first seven seasons and about 1,000 games he hit 348 with an OPS+ of 146. That includes his incredible 1930 season were hit 393 with 35 homers and 130 RBIs. He tailed off after his 30th birthday but he still hit 324 over his career and finished with an OPS+ of 141.

If he had finished that 1930 season with a 400 average he may be in today.
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  #48  
Old 04-17-2024, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
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Another guy I’ve always liked is Babe Herman. WAR is not kind to him but over his first seven seasons and about 1,000 games he hit 348 with an OPS+ of 146. That includes his incredible 1930 season were hit 393 with 35 homers and 130 RBIs. He tailed off after his 30th birthday but he still hit 324 over his career and finished with an OPS+ of 141.

If he had finished that 1930 season with a 400 average he may be in today.
Probably a better player than Billy Herman, who is in.
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Old 04-17-2024, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skelly423 View Post
He always comes up in these conversations, but I haven’t seen him mentioned yet, so I’ll make the case for Lefty O’Doul. If he had never set foot on a baseball diamond as a player he still warrants a spot for bringing the game to Japan, and for his remarkable record as a coach. Factor in his talents as a major league hitter, and it’s absolutely criminal he hasn’t been inducted yet.
I agree with you.
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Old 04-17-2024, 02:32 PM
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There are some folks in who shouldn't be. There are others out who ought to be in. Or so it very subjectively seems. I personally agree with a number of these names, and I collect them with the same level of interest as I do the HOF'ers.
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