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  #51  
Old 02-15-2024, 10:23 AM
campersmd campersmd is offline
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If this issue isn't resolved with a complete refund, I will lose all respect and trust regarding their future auctions. Their initial response to this obvious injustice has already done great damage to their reputation, and their future losses by reduced bidding from Net54 readers will far exceed the cost of this card. Very short sighted!
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  #52  
Old 02-15-2024, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Last year I was contemplating bidding on a high end card in HA. I called and asked about the condition and a little while later Joe Orlando called back. He completely described the card to me and could not have been any nicer. If you have questions about a card ask before you bid and definitely donít call out an auction house before you give them an opportunity to respond to your issue.
the way most auction houses offer extended bidding sessions where not all lots end at the same time. This is to maximize revenues/profits and to encourage more spirited impulse bidding. I am guilty of this as I'm sure many of y'all are.

The least an AH can do is not falsely represent the items they're trying to sell...esp if they're trying to get people too bid impulsivelt during extended bidding when it is unlikely to get a proper response from an AH at all hours of the night/morning.
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  #53  
Old 02-15-2024, 10:39 AM
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Whether it's PSA or the Auction House scans, the "Descreen" settings are jacked up, which tends to blur and smooth out the surface of the entire card.

This is sometimes useful for cards/items that have print dot patterns, as that can be overly distracting when an item is enlarged or shown with browser settings on the internet.

That should not really be an issue with 1933 Goudeys however, as these cards have more of a lithography process then a print dot process.

Bottom line, if the customer is unsatisfied, they should give a refund with a prompt return of the card. If they asked for the card back to "review", I'd be shocked if they don't refund once they have it back in hand.
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  #54  
Old 02-15-2024, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D. Bergin View Post
Bottom line, if the customer is unsatisfied, they should give a refund with a prompt return of the card. If they asked for the card back to "review", I'd be shocked if they don't refund once they have it back in hand.
They can't just offer refunds every time a customer complains though. Too many people would take advantage of that. I think it's important for sales to be final in general. But when an item is misrepresented they need to make it right. I believe they will. It's hard to argue that this card was not misrepresented when holding it in hand and comparing it to the listing.
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  #55  
Old 02-15-2024, 10:58 AM
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Itís pretty big when you donít represent the card right no matter what. HA and REA normally describe the reason why the card received the grade. Maybe Memory Lane can give you an instore credit or just realist the card for a future auction. Using this board to out this card should help you FWIW.
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  #56  
Old 02-15-2024, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
They can't just offer refunds every time a customer complains though. Too many people would take advantage of that. I think it's important for sales to be final in general. But when an item is misrepresented they need to make it right. I believe they will. It's hard to argue that this card was not misrepresented when holding it in hand and comparing it to the listing.
Agree. Probably what I meant to say is "if the customer is unsatisfied, for good reason".

The fact they asked you to send it back, I think bodes well for the eventual outcome.
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  #57  
Old 02-15-2024, 12:43 PM
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Anyone who is backing the AH on this should be ashamed of themselves. This is clearly misrepresentation, and the fact that they doubled down after Travis contacted them is an absolute joke. Will be steering very clear of Memory Lane in the future
100 percent. I have seen this mischaracterization of cards more and more in the last few years.

And calling out AHs on here is truly the only way to get resolution. Trust me, they are all reading this forums.
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  #58  
Old 02-15-2024, 12:55 PM
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Something like this happened to me as well. I will not name the AH but here is the original card and scan that I purchased:



Here is the same card after I had it reholdered:



Ironically, getting the card reholdered increased the grade.
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  #59  
Old 02-15-2024, 01:09 PM
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Is it me or does the PSA label look very different?

Left/ML's scan- bold font/writing and bar code looks more "dense"

Right/in hand scan- thinner font/writing
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  #60  
Old 02-15-2024, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mainemule View Post
Is it me or does the PSA label look very different?

Left/ML's scan- bold font/writing and bar code looks more "dense"

Right/in hand scan- thinner font/writing

That all comes down to camera/scanner settings.
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  #61  
Old 02-15-2024, 02:20 PM
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This reminds me of the many discussions we have had about types of scanners used to scan cards. The comments on Net54 have always been to make sure you use a CCD scanner. The cheap ones are not, and they produce scans of cards that are out of focus (depth of field problem on cheap ones). That's honestly what these photos look like. But I can't believe they wouldn't have the very best scanner available for a large auction such as Memory Lane.
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  #62  
Old 02-15-2024, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GasHouseGang View Post
This reminds me of the many discussions we have had about types of scanners used to scan cards. The comments on Net54 have always been to make sure you use a CCD scanner. The cheap ones are not, and they produce scans of cards that are out of focus (depth of field problem on cheap ones). That's honestly what these photos look like. But I can't believe they wouldn't have the very best scanner available for a large auction such as Memory Lane.
Even nice CCD scanners like the Epson V600 can hide creases. The problem is there's no light coming in at an angle, and you need that to see the crease walls.
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  #63  
Old 02-15-2024, 04:22 PM
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Whatís more acceptable to Major Auction House Bidder, Shill Bidding or Doctoring Scans? This is sad but until buying behavior and bidding in excess stops thereís no reason for the auction house to change its practices.


Iím sorry Travis this does blow...hopefully they refund you your purchase.
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  #64  
Old 02-15-2024, 04:30 PM
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Even nice CCD scanners like the Epson V600 can hide creases. The problem is there's no light coming in at an angle, and you need that to see the crease walls.
Yup, some wrinkles/creases are nearly impossible to pick up on a scanner, no matter how good it is.

It's kind of why I always shake my head whenever somebody asks the board what a card should grade at, down to half grade accuracy, from how a scan shows up on your browser.

...and nobody really wants to figure out lighting/camera angle/cropping with a camera phone shot on a tiny piece of cardboard encased (or not) in a shiny plastic object either.

A good scanner shot is usually the best you're gonna get.
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  #65  
Old 02-16-2024, 10:05 AM
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This is outrageous. I would absolutely be calling them out here. And they HAVE responded and it's one hell of a cold/limp handshake of a response! That creasing isn't minor.
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  #66  
Old 02-16-2024, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by maniac_73 View Post
Anyone who is backing the AH on this should be ashamed of themselves. This is clearly misrepresentation, and the fact that they doubled down after Travis contacted them is an absolute joke. Will be steering very clear of Memory Lane in the future
I agree. Their response only solidifies my initial feeling.
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  #67  
Old 02-16-2024, 12:17 PM
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PF-1 for the grade is the question I would ask because the card looks better than the grade--asking what's the issue with the card--

I'm SURE any AH would correct the problem to ones satisfaction, when AH post hundreds of items, rarely, there could a unintentional mistake with a listing--
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  #68  
Old 02-16-2024, 02:23 PM
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A gross misrepresentation in my book. Not that my business matters that much to them, but I just removed them from my favorites and will no longer bid in their auctions. No room for this sh*t from a "higher" end AH.
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  #69  
Old 02-16-2024, 02:45 PM
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A gross misrepresentation in my book. Not that my business matters that much to them, but I just removed them from my favorites and will no longer bid in their auctions. No room for this sh*t from a "higher" end AH.
But many still bid and consign with PWCC.

I just don't get it
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  #70  
Old 02-16-2024, 03:28 PM
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But many still bid and consign with PWCC.

I just don't get it
They do and itís more then just them Itís all of the majors.
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  #71  
Old 02-16-2024, 04:32 PM
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To my knowledge -- and someone can correct me if I'm wrong -- ML doesn't have a history of doctoring scans. They've had some issues in the past for sure, but doctoring scans is not one of them. I suspect it was just a screwup and I think they'll come through in the end.

Furthermore, I don't see how this is even a close call. When you bid on cards in an auction, the scans are high resolution. Why should you have to ask for more scans unless you see a problem with the card and you want another image? If the card otherwise looks good, there's no reason to ask for any more info.

Last edited by calvindog; 02-16-2024 at 04:34 PM.
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  #72  
Old 02-16-2024, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Last year I was contemplating bidding on a high end card in HA. I called and asked about the condition and a little while later Joe Orlando called back. He completely described the card to me and could not have been any nicer. If you have questions about a card ask before you bid and definitely donít call out an auction house before you give them an opportunity to respond to your issue.

Very good point
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  #73  
Old 02-16-2024, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
To my knowledge -- and someone can correct me if I'm wrong -- ML doesn't have a history of doctoring scans. They've had some issues in the past for sure, but doctoring scans is not one of them. I suspect it was just a screwup and I think they'll come through in the end.

Furthermore, I don't see how this is even a close call. When you bid on cards in an auction, the scans are high resolution. Why should you have to ask for more scans unless you see a problem with the card and you want another image? If the card otherwise looks good, there's no reason to ask for any more info.
They have a history now. The fact that it is taking this long to resolve is bad. This is simply an open and shut case.

All the reason I deal with only 1 auction house. REA.

Gave up on most of the big ones years ago after seeing rampant issues.

It is disgusting what some of the big one's do.

HA stands for just that. Ha! Ha!

I also know that HA had nothing to do with this thread but HA stands for Ha! Ha! All day.


Last edited by vthobby; 02-16-2024 at 05:46 PM.
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  #74  
Old 02-16-2024, 07:23 PM
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They have a history now.
No, they don't. I don't understand how this turned into a discussion about them doctoring scans or photoshopping images or anything like that. There is no reason to come to that conclusion. They're scanning cards and failing to disclose creases that don't show up in the scans. They're not doctoring images.


Quote:
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The fact that it is taking this long to resolve is bad. This is simply an open and shut case.
Ya, we'll see how it goes. I sent it back to them.
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  #75  
Old 02-16-2024, 07:27 PM
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Good luck on a quick resolution, I can't imagine ML would die on this hill.
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  #76  
Old 02-17-2024, 05:51 AM
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[QUOTE=Snowman;2413573]No, they don't. I don't understand how this turned into a discussion about them doctoring scans or photoshopping images or anything like that. There is no reason to come to that conclusion. They're scanning cards and failing to disclose creases that don't show up in the scans. They're not doctoring images.



My contention would be that no AH should present an image of an item that has little semblance to what the card actually looks like. That is deceiving, intentional or not. Yeah it’s easy to fix the “ problem” after a complaint, but just a little quality control should prevent it in the first place.

Last edited by Stonepony; 02-17-2024 at 05:54 AM. Reason: .
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  #77  
Old 02-17-2024, 05:51 AM
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Itís amazing how quickly people jump to conclusions and make assumptions letís see what they say and do in your situation before any conclusions and definitive statements are made itís all good I guess people have their opinions but geez seems like the benefit of the doubt is something thatís left in 2024 in this industry idk 🤷*♂️
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  #78  
Old 02-17-2024, 06:19 AM
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Itís amazing how quickly people jump to conclusions and make assumptions. Letís see what they say and do in your situation before any conclusions and definitive statements are made.
Agree! But comparing the card in the auction and the one received, it's obvious. So I guess the best I can say at this time, until we see how this is plays out, is everyone just needs to do a better job with attention to detail (pictures and descriptions) when posting. I'm hoping this turns out well.
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  #79  
Old 02-17-2024, 08:10 AM
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Agree! But comparing the card in the auction and the one received, it's obvious. So I guess the best I can say at this time, until we see how this is plays out, is everyone just needs to do a better job with attention to detail (pictures and descriptions) when posting. I'm hoping this turns out well.
Concur. It sucks for snowman right now, but I think memory lane will make this right. They know a lot of big-time players who bid in their auction and give them stuff are part of this board or read this board.
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  #80  
Old 02-17-2024, 09:36 AM
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But many still bid and consign with PWCC.

I just don't get it
I stopped buying from PWCC years ago.
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  #81  
Old 02-17-2024, 09:46 AM
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Very good point
Doesn't seem like this dude had any issues before the sale . . . .what are you supposed to do, call the AH and ask "Hey, is that scan in your catalog really accurate, or are you hiding creases?"
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  #82  
Old 02-17-2024, 10:58 AM
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I won this 33 Goudey Gehrig from Memory Lane last month. To say the card was misrepresented would be an understatement. Here's a couple of side-by-sides showing the auction photos vs how they look in hand. And yes, I fully realize that it was in a PSA 1 holder. But the problem nowadays is that PSA's grading is all over the place, and they regularly put VG cards into PSA 1 holders, and this is a brand new cert number, graded within the past few months. So there was reason to believe that the flaws on the card were as seen and described in the listing. It sold for 150% of what an average PSA 1 goes for because of it too ($3750 vs $2500).

Item description from the listing reads as follows:



This is starting to become a pretty big problem, in my opinion. It's always been this way to some degree, but I feel as though it's gotten worse lately. Numerous auction houses are either intentionally hiding major flaws or are exhibiting extreme negligence in their omissions and scans. Say what you will about how annoying the eBay Authenticity Guarantee program is, they at least provide a layer of protection against stuff like this happening. They will reject cards that exhibit major flaws that are not disclosed or shown in the listings.

I reached out to them this morning and sent them these images. We'll see how they respond. Needless to say, I wasn't happy.
It's 'Centered" though with extremely good eye appeal,
Seriously though, this is horsesh**. I don't see E-bay authenticity doing anything but passing that right through. Denying your return and making you wait 6 weeks to get pay pal involved.

AND I wouldn't buy Squat from Memory Lane again if I was you. In fact, I'd probably not buy a thing for a month or 2 and dream of selling it all. Anything less than them demanding the card back with egg on their face is not acceptable, IMHO.

In fact I just signed up at "Thanks for the memories", LOL...never to bid on a thing. Thanks for the "memories" we hardly knew ya
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  #83  
Old 02-17-2024, 11:00 AM
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[QUOTE=Stonepony;2413635][QUOTE=Snowman;2413573]No, they don't. I don't understand how this turned into a discussion about them doctoring scans or photoshopping images or anything like that. There is no reason to come to that conclusion. They're scanning cards and failing to disclose creases that don't show up in the scans. They're not doctoring images.

How do you explain these images? Every scan I take shows everything. How is their scanner filtering that out ya think?..."Contrast"

Last edited by Fuddjcal; 02-17-2024 at 11:01 AM.
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  #84  
Old 02-17-2024, 11:25 AM
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Very interesting comments.

I initially didn't understand why collectors would care about MBA ratings on top of graded slabs, but given the recent examples of inconsistencies, maybe the graders of the graders are actually providing a useful service after all? What do you think?



FYI: I have never used the MBA service and don't own any MBA graded cards.
Isn't that the same Mike baker that authenticated 10's of thousands of FAKE Mantle DiMaggio's Williams Koufax et al, autographs while with GAI? Yea, I really want his FAKE sticker on my stupid slab.
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  #85  
Old 02-17-2024, 11:46 AM
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I stopped buying from PWCC years ago.
I still donít understand how PWCC stayed in business for all these years. Being banned from eBay and the focal point of an FBI (active or unactive) investigation is pretty amazing.

I will agree with a post above that in todays market. Good descriptions and hi res images should save auction houses time on the phone, and having graphic artists on the payroll.
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  #86  
Old 02-17-2024, 02:56 PM
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Isn't that the same Mike baker that authenticated 10's of thousands of FAKE Mantle DiMaggio's Williams Koufax et al, autographs while with GAI? Yea, I really want his FAKE sticker on my stupid slab.
Mike Baker did not authenticate any autographs ever.
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  #87  
Old 02-17-2024, 02:59 PM
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I still donít understand how PWCC stayed in business for all these years. Being banned from eBay and the focal point of an FBI (active or unactive) investigation is pretty amazing.

I will agree with a post above that in todays market. Good descriptions and hi res images should save auction houses time on the phone, and having graphic artists on the payroll.
There's a bit of irony in your post here. PWCC, love them or hate them, is BY FAR the most accurate auction house when it comes to disclosing flaws and providing quality images. In their premier auctions, they even have rotating videos from every angle at super high resolution and have a guy narrating it as he points out every minor defect on the cards. And even their standard scans for cheaper stuff is extremely high resolution. You can zoom in 100x and see even see the print dots and grains in the paper fibers. You may not like them for other reasons, but in terms of the customer experience, they're second to none and it's not close.
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  #88  
Old 02-17-2024, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
There's a bit of irony in your post here. PWCC, love them or hate them, is BY FAR the most accurate auction house when it comes to disclosing flaws and providing quality images. In their premier auctions, they even have rotating videos from every angle at super high resolution and have a guy narrating it as he points out every minor defect on the cards. And even their standard scans for cheaper stuff is extremely high resolution. You can zoom in 100x and see even see the print dots and grains in the paper fibers. You may not like them for other reasons, but in terms of the customer experience, they're second to none and it's not close.
Ummm what about the cards they sold to a buyer, the buyer doctored, and then consigned back to pwcc in a new holder. They didn't disclose those.

I'll pass, they won't miss my revenue
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  #89  
Old 02-18-2024, 12:52 AM
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There's a bit of irony in your post here. PWCC, love them or hate them, is BY FAR the most accurate auction house when it comes to disclosing flaws and providing quality images. In their premier auctions, they even have rotating videos from every angle at super high resolution and have a guy narrating it as he points out every minor defect on the cards. And even their standard scans for cheaper stuff is extremely high resolution. You can zoom in 100x and see even see the print dots and grains in the paper fibers. You may not like them for other reasons, but in terms of the customer experience, they're second to none and it's not close.
Maybe you got confused on my post. I’m amazed on how PWCC is still in business after being kicked off eBay and having an FBI investigation on them. PERIOD.

The second part of my post was on auction houses (ANY) and how they they should use Hi Res images. Its rare I ever do business with PWCC for many reasons. Glad you’ve had success with PWCC Snowman. Maybe you know Brent personally or might even be an investor.
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Last edited by BeanTown; 02-18-2024 at 01:01 AM.
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Old 02-18-2024, 09:07 AM
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Ummm what about the cards they sold to a buyer, the buyer doctored, and then consigned back to pwcc in a new holder. They didn't disclose those.

I'll pass, they won't miss my revenue
Do you honestly believe that there's a single consignment company on the planet that is immune to this behavior? Because they all sell doctored cards. By the truck loads. Most high grade vintage cards have been altered in some way.
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Old 02-18-2024, 09:15 AM
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Do you honestly believe that there's a single consignment company on the planet that is immune to this behavior? Because they all sell doctored cards. By the truck loads. Most high grade vintage cards have been altered in some way.
Probably none which were 100% "in on it"

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Old 02-18-2024, 09:15 AM
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Maybe you got confused on my post. Iím amazed on how PWCC is still in business after being kicked off eBay and having an FBI investigation on them. PERIOD.

The second part of my post was on auction houses (ANY) and how they they should use Hi Res images. Its rare I ever do business with PWCC for many reasons. Glad youíve had success with PWCC Snowman. Maybe you know Brent personally or might even be an investor.
PWCC was kicked off ebay because they were launching a platform to compete against them, not because they were caught shill bidding. ebay attempted to tarnish their reputation. I don't know Brett at all, but I live right up the street from ebay's headquarters and I know a lot of people that work there. They've been trying to recruit me for years. I know how ebay operates.

The FBI investigation turned out to be a nothing burger. Zero charges were filed. Just as I, very loudly, predicted would be the case.
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Old 02-18-2024, 09:21 AM
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PWCC was kicked off ebay because they were launching a platform to compete against them, not because they were caught shill bidding. ebay attempted to tarnish their reputation. I don't know Brett at all, but I live right up the street from ebay's headquarters and I know a lot of people that work there. They've been trying to recruit me for years. I know how ebay operates.



The FBI investigation turned out to be a nothing burger. Zero charges were filed. Just as I, very loudly, predicted would be the case.
Only took Jeff Lichtman to put it to bed. Definitely nothing there hahahaha

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Old 02-18-2024, 10:04 AM
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Only took Jeff Lichtman to put it to bed. Definitely nothing there hahahaha

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Would be interesting to hear his take on what happened, but I think he's unlikely to share that intel.

That said, PWCC was just one branch of a much larger investigation. And no charges were brought against any one person or entity, despite a copious amount of evidence having been handed over to the FBI and multiple subpoenas having been issued.

Regardless, PWCC is under new ownership anyhow, so whatever Brent was up to really isn't relevant anymore IMO.
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Old 02-18-2024, 10:57 AM
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I still donít understand how PWCC stayed in business for all these years. Being banned from eBay and the focal point of an FBI (active or unactive) investigation is pretty amazing.

I will agree with a post above that in todays market. Good descriptions and hi res images should save auction houses time on the phone, and having graphic artists on the payroll.
Because at the end of the day, the majority of collectors don't care. They want stuff, and if an auction house has the stuff they want, they will bid on it. Auction houses, TPG's, etc are all very aware of this.

If Mastro popped up with an AH tomorrow , and he had great "stuff", it would all sell for market value.
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Old 02-18-2024, 02:26 PM
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Because at the end of the day, the majority of collectors don't care. They want stuff, and if an auction house has the stuff they want, they will bid on it. Auction houses, TPG's, etc are all very aware of this.

If Mastro popped up with an AH tomorrow , and he had great "stuff", it would all sell for market value.
You speak the truth sir, What you said is the facts and the reality of collectors they donít care if they have the cards they will Bid and Buy regardless. Card Trumps All.
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Old 02-18-2024, 03:30 PM
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You speak the truth sir, What you said is the facts and the reality of collectors they donít care if they have the cards they will Bid and Buy regardless. Card Trumps All.
Ya, I will buy cards from auction houses I dislike. But I won't consign with them... So it definitely hurts an AH to mistreat their customers. They want consignments more than they want buyers.
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Old 02-18-2024, 03:53 PM
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Ya, I will buy cards from auction houses I dislike. But I won't consign with them... So it definitely hurts an AH to mistreat their customers. They want consignments more than they want buyers.
This! Agree 100%.
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Old 02-18-2024, 03:59 PM
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I rarely ever scan cards. I simply take a photo with my iphone with the card under a good light source, and they turn out super - showing all the flaws, creases, etc.

The before and after receipt photos are amazing. The creases seem to be so bad they would show up with an old Kodak disposable.

Sorry for everyone's loss, and that is what it is, a loss.
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Old 02-18-2024, 09:01 PM
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I think you will get your money back and this was probably some unintentional screwup. Cautionary tale though for how much difference scan settings can make.
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