NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-29-2024, 09:31 AM
Zach Wheat Zach Wheat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,674
Default 1952 Topps - The Missing 3

As Topps was winding down its 2nd year of cards they were scrambling to complete the 6th and final series of cards. Berger intended the last series to be the grand finale for the set. Afterall, the 3 major New York teams - Dodgers, Yankees and Giants - were playing well and New York was the largest market for bubble gum. Of the 48 Giants and Dogers included in the set, Topps saved 28 of them for the final series.

In previous interviews Sy Berger said he completely misjudged how long it took to print, package and release the last series of cards, resulting in a release after the World Series concluded. The contract with Mantle, purportedly wasn't even signed until late in the summer. Topps reps scrambled to get the final stars under contract and included in the set - but failed on a number of players and 3 cards had to be replaced. In previous interviews, Berger did not reveal which 3 players were pulled from the last series. However, we know Mantle, Robinson and Thompson were hastily created and double printed. Although we may never know for sure - Sy hinted one player/card was his favorite.

Who were those 3 players pulled from the set?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-29-2024, 10:07 AM
brian1961 brian1961 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,329
Default

Thank you for the fascinating post, Zach Wheat. Hopefully, someone will chime in with some definite info. Oh if we only had Sy Berger back, to hit him with 20 questions, including this one-----at what point in time, Sy, did you begin to regret dumping all those cases of the '52 Topps last series into the Atlantic Ocean? --- Brian Powell
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-29-2024, 01:29 PM
swarmee's Avatar
swarmee swarmee is offline
J0hn Raff3rty
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Niceville FL
Posts: 6,951
Default

Ted Williams would be an obvious choice, right?
Kiner was in Bowman but not Topps. Nellie Fox.

Is this a trivia question where you know the answer or just want some pontificating?
__________________
--
PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-29-2024, 01:32 PM
irv's Avatar
irv irv is offline
D@le Irv*n
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Ontario, Canada.
Posts: 6,707
Default

I'll guess and say Ted Williams, Stan Musial and Whitey Ford.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-29-2024, 02:15 PM
Zach Wheat Zach Wheat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,674
Default

Surprisingly Rogers Hornsby was a coach in 1952 as well.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-29-2024, 02:19 PM
Zach Wheat Zach Wheat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,674
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brian1961 View Post
Thank you for the fascinating post, Zach Wheat. Hopefully, someone will chime in with some definite info. Oh if we only had Sy Berger back, to hit him with 20 questions, including this one-----at what point in time, Sy, did you begin to regret dumping all those cases of the '52 Topps last series into the Atlantic Ocean? --- Brian Powell
Len Brown, one of the original Topps employees from that era, having started somewhere around 1959ish, is still alive and living in TX. I reached out to contacts that originally interviewed him for articles in SCD, but he has not responded yet.

He has lived an interesting life to date. Well worth reading his interviews
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-29-2024, 03:30 PM
packs packs is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,432
Default

I would think Joe D is a good candidate, no? I realize 1951 was his final season but he did get a card in the 1952 Berk Ross set and it would have been his only opportunity for a Topps card.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-29-2024, 06:32 PM
swarmee's Avatar
swarmee swarmee is offline
J0hn Raff3rty
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Niceville FL
Posts: 6,951
Default

Maybe not Ted Williams. He spent most of 1952 flying planes in the Korean War/Conflict.
__________________
--
PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-30-2024, 11:06 AM
egri's Avatar
egri egri is offline
Sco.tt Mar.cus
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 1,793
Default

Williams would have to sign that Topps contract from the cockpit of a F9F Panther.

I think we’re looking at this wrong. The same thing happened in 1953, with six players missing from the set. After several years of speculation, they were revealed to be six benchwarmers, not stars, and that’s most likely who Topps missed on in 1952. It makes sense to me that if they were stars, Sy Berger would have gone all out to get them under contract, but for commons, he went with who he already had.
__________________
Signed 1953 Topps set: 264/274 (96.35 %)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-30-2024, 09:59 PM
irv's Avatar
irv irv is offline
D@le Irv*n
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Ontario, Canada.
Posts: 6,707
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by egri View Post
Williams would have to sign that Topps contract from the cockpit of a F9F Panther.

I think we’re looking at this wrong. The same thing happened in 1953, with six players missing from the set. After several years of speculation, they were revealed to be six benchwarmers, not stars, and that’s most likely who Topps missed on in 1952. It makes sense to me that if they were stars, Sy Berger would have gone all out to get them under contract, but for commons, he went with who he already had.
Not conclusive as maybe Sy was just friends with him but I doubt Sy would say he was a favorite if he was just a bench warmer?

"Sy hinted one player/card was his favorite"
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-31-2024, 09:54 PM
Volod Volod is offline
Steve
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: NEOH
Posts: 1,075
Wink Some more speculation...and free replicards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by egri View Post
I think we’re looking at this wrong. The same thing happened in 1953, with six players missing from the set. After several years of speculation, they were revealed to be six benchwarmers, not stars, and that’s most likely who Topps missed on in 1952. It makes sense to me that if they were stars, Sy Berger would have gone all out to get them under contract, but for commons, he went with who he already had.
For what it's worth, on his ESPN show in 2014, Keith Olbermann presented a letter from a long-time Topps employee dated 1973 that was discovered by hobby historian Bob Lemke. In it, the former employee stated, "the following players were taken out of the [1953] set...as follows: #253 Joe Tipton; #261 Ken Wood: #267 Hoot Evers; #268 Harry Brecheen; #271 Billy Cox; #275 Pete Castiglione."
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1953 Topps Triptych 1.jpg (202.7 KB, 293 views)
File Type: jpg 1953 Topps Triptych 2.jpg (200.9 KB, 294 views)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-04-2024, 02:28 PM
Zach Wheat Zach Wheat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,674
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
Maybe not Ted Williams. He spent most of 1952 flying planes in the Korean War/Conflict.
Ted was called up from the Reserves on May 1, 1952. Afterwards he was in Korea. Could still be Ted.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-04-2024, 06:15 PM
Rrrlyons Rrrlyons is offline
R!CK LYON$
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Washington
Posts: 316
Default

Someone suggested that Honus Wagner was a coach on the pirates until feb of 1952 and since other pirates coaches were in the high series maybe he was supposed to be in the series.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-04-2024, 06:18 PM
Rrrlyons Rrrlyons is offline
R!CK LYON$
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Washington
Posts: 316
Default

It does make sense that they could be people in the military and that’s why the phrase “it took longer that expected to get the contracts signed”
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-05-2024, 09:37 AM
Seven's Avatar
Seven Seven is offline
James M.
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: New York
Posts: 1,554
Default

It's times like this where I wish Ted Z was still with us, to regale us of some tale concerning collecting the 1952 Topps back in the day.

I think Williams and Joe D are plausible. Maybe Casey Stengel? He did get a card in the Bowman issue. Satchel Paige is another possibility as he did get a card in the 1953 Set.
__________________
Successful Deals With:

charlietheexterminator, todeen, tonyo, Santo10fan
Bocabirdman (5x), 8thEastVB, JCMTiger, Rjackson44
Republicaninmass, 73toppsmann, quinnsryche (2x),
Donscards.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-05-2024, 11:09 AM
Zach Wheat Zach Wheat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,674
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven View Post
It's times like this where I wish Ted Z was still with us, to regale us of some tale concerning collecting the 1952 Topps back in the day.....
Agree, I miss Ted Z and the insight he brought to the forum.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-05-2024, 12:19 PM
rats60's Avatar
rats60 rats60 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,901
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by irv View Post
I'll guess and say Ted Williams, Stan Musial and Whitey Ford.
Ford was in the military in 1951 and 1952. I would say Ralph Kiner was the third player. Topps had him in their 1951 and 1953 sets.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-05-2024, 03:18 PM
toppcat's Avatar
toppcat toppcat is offline
Dave.Horn.ish
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,815
Default

No way to tell but I'm curious if cards of the coaches and managers that started with the semi-highs represent slots where Topps was still waiting for a signed contract?

I have doubts Williams was to have appeared in the set as he went on the NDS list (I think that means either Non-Disabled Suspended or Non-Disabled Service) effective 5/2/52. And with DiMaggio retiring on 12/11/51 and being on the Voluntarily Retired List from that date he doesn't seem to fit the contractual parameters for Topps in 1952. I also doubt Musial was a possibility either.

Kiner, on the other hand, very much seems like a candidate.

It's possible some Berk-Ross contracts were exclusive. All four players above were 1952 B-R subjects.

Last edited by toppcat; 04-05-2024 at 09:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-06-2024, 01:22 PM
paul's Avatar
paul paul is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,340
Default

I thought the consensus was that the Berk Ross cards were unauthorized, so nobody would have been under an exclusive Berk Ross contract.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-06-2024, 02:18 PM
toppcat's Avatar
toppcat toppcat is offline
Dave.Horn.ish
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,815
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul View Post
I thought the consensus was that the Berk Ross cards were unauthorized, so nobody would have been under an exclusive Berk Ross contract.
I've not heard that before but unauthorized over a two year period seems kind of weird. However, I just did a quick search and found this from an early August 1952 Sporting News article:

"SEVEN GIANTS POP POPCORN

Two popcorn firms have been asked by Supreme Court justice Samuel Gold of New York to show cause why they should not be stopped from placing pasteboard photographs of seven members of the Giants inside bags of their product. Larry Jansen, Bobby Thomson, Sal Maglie, Wes Westrum, Montia Kennedy, Dave Koslo and Bill Rigney also instituted action to recover $50,000 each from the companies on the ground that their pictures were used without their consent."

Which led to a Bob Lemke blog post: https://boblemke.blogspot.com/2012/0...nlicensed.html

Why only NY Giants players were involved in the suit was not revealed. Lemke also intimates 1952 B-R was sold with gum, which is interesting in context.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-09-2024, 12:46 PM
Zach Wheat Zach Wheat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,674
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by egri View Post
... The same thing happened in 1953, with six players missing from the set. After several years of speculation, they were revealed to be six benchwarmers, not stars, and that’s most likely who Topps missed on in 1952. It makes sense to me that if they were stars, Sy Berger would have gone all out to get them under contract, but for commons, he went with who he already had.
Good theory and not sure of the correct answer. Several well respected collectors who are very familiar with the set believe the 3 stars were double printed intentionally.

In a separate interview before his passing, Sy Berger mentioned that the double prints were due to players that were unsigned. As I work out how series were printed, the more I realize there are a lot of interconnected issues and some of the original assumptions on the printing and packaging of cards in each series has exceptions. More on this later.

Last edited by Zach Wheat; 04-09-2024 at 01:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-09-2024, 01:03 PM
packs packs is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,432
Default

Musial doesn't get onto a Topps card until 1958, so I highly doubt he would be a serious contender for the 52 Set.

Same for Ted Williams. He doesn't appear on a Topps card until 1954.

I still think Joe D is a likely candidate. Yes, his career was over after the 1951 season but he also gave plenty of hints of his impending retirement and this would have been the only opportunity to feature him on a card.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
1952 Topps "Host Wilhelm post/ad missing? irv 1950 to 1959 Baseball cards- B/S/T 9 11-01-2022 08:34 AM
1952 topps set with reds/black 99% complete missing Mantle and Mathews soldbo Republicaninmass 1950 to 1959 Baseball cards- B/S/T 10 04-10-2022 01:51 PM
1952 Topps #49 Johnny Sain (page bio) INCREDIBLE hand cut missing red Scrap SGC A Republicaninmass 1950 to 1959 Baseball cards- B/S/T 22 01-26-2021 07:19 AM
Very rare 1952 topps #307 Campos missing border VG+ sold Republicaninmass 1950 to 1959 Baseball cards- B/S/T 1 11-08-2016 06:24 AM
1952 Bowman Werle missing 2/3 of the W Archive Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980) 2 12-25-2007 09:09 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:03 AM.


ebay GSB