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  #1  
Old 02-11-2024, 01:48 PM
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Default W501-2 is now recognized by SGC!

Recently, we had this Net54 thread re W575-1 in which there is mention of W501 cards, including a Type 2 version that hasn't been recognized by the TPGs: https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ghlight=w575-1

At the beginning of January, I sold my raw W501 Type 2 (or W501-2) duplicate of Sam Rice to a collector on another forum. I provided him with all the info I had re the W501-2 cards, especially Rhett Y.'s piece published in Old Cardboard Magazine several years ago. I told him the W501-2 card isn't recognized by the TPGs, but he told me he was going to submit it to SGC anyway. I wished him good luck, but wasn't holding my breath.

Well, lo and behold, this collector has received his card back from SGC, and the label on the SGC slab says "W501-2"! The collector included Rhett's info with his submission to SGC, and he said SGC never asked him any questions about it before slabbing it. Here's this card in its new SGC slab:
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File Type: jpg W501-2 I sold to Drew Newhoff in SGC slab!.jpg (56.8 KB, 656 views)
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Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, W575-1 E. S. Rice version, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also T216 Kotton "NGO" card of Hugh Jennings. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo.
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  #2  
Old 02-11-2024, 02:07 PM
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Pretty cool.

Neat to be able to add something to the established ACC.
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  #3  
Old 02-11-2024, 03:23 PM
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Fantastic stuff Val. Thank you for letting me line up a W501-1 with this card yesterday at the meetup. The image box lined up perfectly. Ill be asking SGC to review this one soon.
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  #4  
Old 02-11-2024, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theshowandme View Post
Fantastic stuff Val. Thank you for letting me line up a W501-1 with this card yesterday at the meetup. The image box lined up perfectly. Ill be asking SGC to review this one soon.
Don, it was great to meet and chat with you yesterday at the Net54 get together, and I'm glad that my W501-1 of WaJo was useful in helping you determine that your Sisler card is actually a W501-2 card. I, too, am going to "strike while the iron is hot" and submit my raw W501-2s of WaJo and Sam Rice to SGC at the upcoming Chantilly Show.
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Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, W575-1 E. S. Rice version, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also T216 Kotton "NGO" card of Hugh Jennings. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo.
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  #5  
Old 02-11-2024, 10:43 PM
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Congrats all in finally getting a grading company to recognize overwhelmingly convincing research by Rhett, with a huge assist by Val and that other collector dealing with SGC.

It gives me hope that SGC can also rectify various other old hobby information on their labels, and show PSA how it can be done.

W501-2...a checklist of available cards needs to be created!


Brian
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  #6  
Old 04-20-2024, 03:58 PM
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Default W501

I'd like to ask the knowledgable collectors here why you think the W501 cards don't, in my opinion, get too much respect? Is it the grainy photos? Is it that the cards are similar to E121 and W575-1? The W501s have very low pops and a nice selection of all-time greats. Or perhaps they do get their share of respect and I'm incorrect. Thanks!!!
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  #7  
Old 04-20-2024, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffyb View Post
I'd like to ask the knowledgable collectors here why you think the W501 cards don't, in my opinion, get too much respect? Is it the grainy photos? Is it that the cards are similar to E121 and W575-1? The W501s have very low pops and a nice selection of all-time greats. Or perhaps they do get their share of respect and I'm incorrect. Thanks!!!
I think it is a combination that they have, since the beginning of hobby times, been classified as strip cards, and the traditional W501 cards (which perhaps now should be referred to as W501-1 cards) were indeed issued in strip form and thus usually have borders top/bottom borders with poor cuts or have been separated by tearing. Another contributing factor is that they have blank backs, which for a sizeable chunk of the collecting world is seen as the plain jane sister of cards that have a bunch of words printed on the back. W501-1 cards do not have grainy photos...in my opinion they are about comparable in photo quality as seen in the E121 set. The W501-2 I believe are a little grainier in appearance. The E122 American Caramel set has very grainy photos, in case you want to see what a real fiber-enriched grainy card looks like.

Both the W501-1 and the newly recognized W501-2 are in my opinion great cards worthy of more collector interest.

Here is a W501-1, for visual reference.

w501ruel261 (249x400).jpgw501ruel262 (242x400).jpg



Brian

Last edited by brianp-beme; 04-20-2024 at 04:49 PM.
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  #8  
Old 04-20-2024, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianp-beme View Post
Congrats all in finally getting a grading company to recognize overwhelmingly convincing research by Rhett, with a huge assist by Val and that other collector dealing with SGC.

It gives me hope that SGC can also rectify various other old hobby information on their labels, and show PSA how it can be done.

W501-2...a checklist of available cards needs to be created!


Brian
We might already be seeing the way PSA would do it. Nothing wrong with fixing a lot of old mistakes.
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  #9  
Old 04-20-2024, 06:39 PM
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Thank you Brian. And I appreciate the attached pic. I do like the W501 photos. It's cool to see the players in action. It will be interesting to see where future interest in these cards heads. Given the state of the hobby, perhaps it's a positive that interest in these is on the low side.
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  #10  
Old 04-20-2024, 09:33 PM
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In the very recent Bagger's Auction than ended April 11th, there are 47 lots of individual cards (Lots #46 through Lot #92) that are identified as W575-1 cards in SGC slabs. When I saw these cards, I was quite sure that many of them are W501-2 cards. So, I contacted Dave Schrader and gave him a heads-up plus all the info I had re the W501-2 cards. Kudos to Dave for adding this info to the auction lots he felt are likely to actually be W501-2 cards.
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Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, W575-1 E. S. Rice version, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also T216 Kotton "NGO" card of Hugh Jennings. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo.
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  #11  
Old 04-20-2024, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianp-beme View Post
I think it is a combination that they have, since the beginning of hobby times, been classified as strip cards, and the traditional W501 cards (which perhaps now should be referred to as W501-1 cards) were indeed issued in strip form and thus usually have borders top/bottom borders with poor cuts or have been separated by tearing. Another contributing factor is that they have blank backs, which for a sizeable chunk of the collecting world is seen as the plain jane sister of cards that have a bunch of words printed on the back. W501-1 cards do not have grainy photos...in my opinion they are about comparable in photo quality as seen in the E121 set. The W501-2 I believe are a little grainier in appearance. The E122 American Caramel set has very grainy photos, in case you want to see what a real fiber-enriched grainy card looks like.

Both the W501-1 and the newly recognized W501-2 are in my opinion great cards worthy of more collector interest.

Here is a W501-1, for visual reference.

Attachment 618817Attachment 618818



Brian

Brian, IMHO, both the W501-1 and W501-2 cards are grainy in appearance, an E121 card has a slightly grainy appearance, and a W575-1 card is not grainy in appearance.. For a visual comparison, below are my WaJo cards from these sets:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg W501-1 & W501-2 - fronts.jpg (162.2 KB, 340 views)
File Type: jpg E121-80 WaJo - Throwing - Type 3 - front.jpg (156.9 KB, 342 views)
File Type: jpg W575-1 Walter Johnson - front.jpg (90.9 KB, 337 views)
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Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, W575-1 E. S. Rice version, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also T216 Kotton "NGO" card of Hugh Jennings. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo.
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  #12  
Old 04-20-2024, 10:23 PM
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The Standard Catalog of Vintage Baseball Cards lists two variations for W575-1 cards of Sam Rice - an "E. C. Rice" and an "E. S. Rice." I've been working on a master set of Rice's cards for many years, and I've never come across the "E. S. Rice" variation. I now believe that the "E. S. Rice" variation is actually a W501-2 card that has long been mis-cataloged as a W575-1 card. Below are my W501-1, W501-2, and W575-1 cards of Rice. The Standard Catalog shows two variations for several other players, and I suspect that one variation for each of these players is actually a W501-2 card.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg W501-1 Rice - front.jpg (195.7 KB, 339 views)
File Type: jpg W501-2 Rice - #14 in pencil in upper rt. corner.jpg (122.3 KB, 336 views)
File Type: jpg W575-1 E. C. Rice - front.jpg (80.5 KB, 335 views)
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Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, W575-1 E. S. Rice version, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also T216 Kotton "NGO" card of Hugh Jennings. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo.
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  #13  
Old 04-21-2024, 11:01 AM
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I got to show off my Sisler and tell its story a few times this weekend at the Strongsville show

I do plan on trying to get SGC to reholder it under the W501-2 classification in Cleveland this summer
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Old 04-22-2024, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theshowandme View Post
I got to show off my Sisler and tell its story a few times this weekend at the Strongsville show

I do plan on trying to get SGC to reholder it under the W501-2 classification in Cleveland this summer
Way to go, Don! I submitted my raw W501-2 and W575-1 cards of both WaJo and Sam Rice to SGC at the very recent Chantilly Show. I'll try to remember (I have the world's worst memory!) to let you know the results when I receive my slabbed cards.
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Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, W575-1 E. S. Rice version, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also T216 Kotton "NGO" card of Hugh Jennings. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo.
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Old 04-22-2024, 06:46 PM
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Good to see some life in this thread and these cards in general.

As for the W575-1 cards that parallel the E121 Series of 120 set...they do exist but are VERY TOUGH to find and easily 90-95% are actually W501-2 cards that are labeled W575-1.

That being said, blank backed cards of the same quality images and otherwise identical to E121 Series of 120 cards are out there and they are confirmed as such by the better quality image, card stock, & the fact that they are on the same thinner card stock that E121 Series 120 (which is pretty obvious when holding a Series of 80 an Series of 120 in your hand at the same time)

So hate to be the bearer of bad news Val but you still need the Rice card.

I chose 2 "not so totally random" W575-1 (Series of 120) cards from my album to show what they look like & show the image quality vs Val's Rice he showed above
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20240422_0001.jpg (183.0 KB, 246 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20240422_0002.jpg (185.9 KB, 240 views)
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Old 04-22-2024, 09:22 PM
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Rhett, it isn't clear to me what you mean by your comment, "So hate to be the bearer of bad news Val but you still need the Rice card." Are you telling me that the card I have identified as a W575-1 card is actually a W501-2 card? If so, I disagree. Not only is the card stock different for my W501-2 and what I believe to be my W575-1 of Rice, but the rectangular box containing Rice's image is slightly smaller in both width and height on my W501-2 (and W501-1) card. These same differences also exist between my W501-2 (and W501-1) and my W575-1 cards of WaJo. Rhett, have you ever compared the sizes of the rectangular boxes for the W501 cards vs. the W575-1 cards, and if so, did you find the sizes to be different, as I did?

Rhett, I also find it interesting to note the differences in Sam Rice's name and field position found on the "E121 and related cards" in my Sam Rice collection, as detailed below:

"E. S. Rice" and "O. F." - E121-120 A.m. Caramel, W501-1, and W501-2.

"E. C. Rice" and "C. F." - E121-80 Am. Caramel (with Type 1, Type 1 - reverse, and Type 2 backs), Clark's Bread, Gassler's Bread, Witmor Candy (horizontal back), Henry A. Johnson (purple back stamp), and what I believe to be my W575-1 card (shown above).

"E. C. Rice" and "R. F." - Herpolsheimer's Boy's Clothing, D327-1 Holsum Bread, D327-2 Holsum Bread, and Queen City Cigar Store.
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Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, W575-1 E. S. Rice version, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also T216 Kotton "NGO" card of Hugh Jennings. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo.
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Old 04-22-2024, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValKehl View Post
Rhett, it isn't clear to me what you mean by your comment, "So hate to be the bearer of bad news Val but you still need the Rice card." Are you telling me that the card I have identified as a W575-1 card is actually a W501-2 card? If so, I disagree. Not only is the card stock different for my W501-2 and what I believe to be my W575-1 of Rice, but the rectangular box containing Rice's image is slightly smaller in both width and height on my W501-2 (and W501-1) card. These same differences also exist between my W501-2 (and W501-1) and my W575-1 cards of WaJo. Rhett, have you ever compared the sizes of the rectangular boxes for the W501 cards vs. the W575-1 cards, and if so, did you find the sizes to be different, as I did?

Rhett, I also find it interesting to note the differences in Sam Rice's name and field position found on the "E121 and related cards" in my Sam Rice collection, as detailed below:

"E. S. Rice" and "O. F." - E121-120 A.m. Caramel, W501-1, and W501-2.

"E. C. Rice" and "C. F." - E121-80 Am. Caramel (with Type 1, Type 1 - reverse, and Type 2 backs), Clark's Bread, Gassler's Bread, Witmor Candy (horizontal back), Henry A. Johnson (purple back stamp), and what I believe to be my W575-1 card (shown above).

"E. C. Rice" and "R. F." - Herpolsheimer's Boy's Clothing, D327-1 Holsum Bread, D327-2 Holsum Bread, and Queen City Cigar Store.
I was making a joke Val, I probably should have been more clear.

The E. S. RICE (O.F.) I showed in my post is a W575-1, which is the one I believe you need.

I believe you have yours all identified correctly.

There are two different known W575-1 Rice cards.
-You pictured a W575-1 of E. C. RICE (C.F.) which is correct
-The E. S. RICE (O.F.) that I pictured
(possibly a 3rd of E. C. RICE with R.F. but I haven't seen it)


The order which the RICE cards were made is as follows...

1920 (Holsum Type 1) & early 1921 Releases "E. C. RICE" with "R.F."
1921 Bulk of the releases "E. C. RICE" with "C. F."
1922 releases "E. S. RICE" with "O.F."
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Last edited by rhettyeakley; 04-22-2024 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 04-23-2024, 10:53 AM
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I was making a joke Val, I probably should have been more clear.

The E. S. RICE (O.F.) I showed in my post is a W575-1, which is the one I believe you need.

I believe you have yours all identified correctly.

There are two different known W575-1 Rice cards.
-You pictured a W575-1 of E. C. RICE (C.F.) which is correct
-The E. S. RICE (O.F.) that I pictured
(possibly a 3rd of E. C. RICE with R.F. but I haven't seen it)


The order which the RICE cards were made is as follows...

1920 (Holsum Type 1) & early 1921 Releases "E. C. RICE" with "R.F."
1921 Bulk of the releases "E. C. RICE" with "C. F."
1922 releases "E. S. RICE" with "O.F."

Rhett, thanks for explaining your comment - sorry that I didn't catch your joke. I'd been hoping there was no such W575-1 card with "E. S. Rice" and "O. F." existed. Should you ever decide to part with your example, please keep me in mind. Thanks also for the info regarding which years the different Rice variations were issued.

I note that you didn't respond to this question in my earlier post, " Rhett, have you ever compared the sizes of the rectangular boxes for the W501 cards vs. the W575-1 cards, and if so, did you find the sizes to be different, as I did?" Every W501 nad W575-1 card in my collection has this rectangular-box size variance, but I have very, very few of these cards. With all of your experience with these cards, have you found this size variance to be a consistently true differentiator?
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Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, W575-1 E. S. Rice version, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also T216 Kotton "NGO" card of Hugh Jennings. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo.
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Old 04-25-2024, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValKehl View Post
Rhett, thanks for explaining your comment - sorry that I didn't catch your joke. I'd been hoping there was no such W575-1 card with "E. S. Rice" and "O. F." existed. Should you ever decide to part with your example, please keep me in mind. Thanks also for the info regarding which years the different Rice variations were issued.

I note that you didn't respond to this question in my earlier post, " Rhett, have you ever compared the sizes of the rectangular boxes for the W501 cards vs. the W575-1 cards, and if so, did you find the sizes to be different, as I did?" Every W501 nad W575-1 card in my collection has this rectangular-box size variance, but I have very, very few of these cards. With all of your experience with these cards, have you found this size variance to be a consistently true differentiator?
Great info, Guys!
Hopefully Rhett (hey Rhett) will see your question. I just thought I would add some W575-1s taken out of their pack..All are pretty close to 100% the same size, when stacked up.
And a Nicely cut, W501 Waite Hoyte with Bagby's name on it.
.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg pw575group3.jpg (194.1 KB, 175 views)
File Type: jpg w501.jpg (111.2 KB, 169 views)
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Last edited by Leon; 04-25-2024 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 05-03-2024, 03:22 PM
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Way to go, Don! I submitted my raw W501-2 and W575-1 cards of both WaJo and Sam Rice to SGC at the very recent Chantilly Show. I'll try to remember (I have the world's worst memory!) to let you know the results when I receive my slabbed cards.
Don, I received these 4 slabbed cards back from SGC today. SGC labeled 3 of the 4 cards correctly, with the W501-1 of Sam Rice receiving a "3" grade (I carefully erased the "14" in pencil in the upper right corner before submitting the card). But sadly, SGC mislabeld my W501-2 card of WaJo as being a W575-1 card. Sigh!

What is especially frustrating is that I made every effort to ensure that SGC would correctly identify all four of these cards by putting a little piece of paper in the top loader with each of these four cards identifying the correct ACC # (W501-2 or W575-1) when I submitted them. And, all four of these cards are correctly identified on the invoice order form I received when I gave these cards to the SGC rep at the Chantilly Show on April 5th. I would have thought that if the SGC grader/researcher was going to disagree with my identification of a card I submitted, SGC would have contacted me to clarify this BEFORE slabbing the card! I have contacted SGC, and SGC has agreed that I may return the mislabeled card to be correctly relabeled.
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Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, W575-1 E. S. Rice version, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also T216 Kotton "NGO" card of Hugh Jennings. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo.

Last edited by ValKehl; 05-03-2024 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 05-04-2024, 06:15 AM
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Don, I received these 4 slabbed cards back from SGC today. SGC labeled 3 of the 4 cards correctly, with the W501-1 of Sam Rice receiving a "3" grade (I carefully erased the "14" in pencil in the upper right corner before submitting the card). But sadly, SGC mislabeld my W501-2 card of WaJo as being a W575-1 card. Sigh!

What is especially frustrating is that I made every effort to ensure that SGC would correctly identify all four of these cards by putting a little piece of paper in the top loader with each of these four cards identifying the correct ACC # (W501-2 or W575-1) when I submitted them. And, all four of these cards are correctly identified on the invoice order form I received when I gave these cards to the SGC rep at the Chantilly Show on April 5th. I would have thought that if the SGC grader/researcher was going to disagree with my identification of a card I submitted, SGC would have contacted me to clarify this BEFORE slabbing the card! I have contacted SGC, and SGC has agreed that I may return the mislabeled card to be correctly relabeled.

Im glad they are willing to correct their error.

Id love to see the scans when you have them!
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Old 05-04-2024, 08:00 PM
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Im glad they are willing to correct their error.

Id love to see the scans when you have them!
Don, here are scans of the 4 cards I submitted to SGC. The WaJo card that SGC graded "Authentic" is the mislabeled card- this card is actually a W501-2 card.
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Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, W575-1 E. S. Rice version, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also T216 Kotton "NGO" card of Hugh Jennings. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo.
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Old 05-04-2024, 08:15 PM
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Incredible!

The difference is clear as day when you have the high resolution scans
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Old 05-04-2024, 08:43 PM
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Looking at these 4 cards, I just noticed something else that may enable one to quickly distinguish a W501 card (both types) from a W575-1 card. The open-space distance between the line with the player's name and the line with the position and team name is GREATER on the W501 cards than it is on the W575-1 cards. I wonder if this holds true for all the W501 nad W575-1 cards. Rhett, what thinketh you?
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Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, W575-1 E. S. Rice version, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also T216 Kotton "NGO" card of Hugh Jennings. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo.

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Old 05-05-2024, 05:52 AM
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Val, I put your cards into a collage side by side

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Old 05-06-2024, 11:08 AM
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Brian, IMHO, both the W501-1 and W501-2 cards are grainy in appearance, an E121 card has a slightly grainy appearance, and a W575-1 card is not grainy in appearance.. For a visual comparison, below are my WaJo cards from these sets:
Val, this is an important topic. Imagine the Board giving SGC a set lesson. And convincing them. Well done for you guys. I do have a question though: The ones that are numbered with some kind of id lettering on top of the card are 2's or 1's? I have a nice Cobb with these markings on top so am interested.
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Old 05-06-2024, 11:39 AM
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John, I'm really not able to respond to your question re the grading of W501-1 cards with the "G-4-22" and a card # at the top border, as the only such card that I have that is slabbed is a SGC 6 of Sam Rice (shown in post #12 above). But, in looking at the PSA & SGC pop reports, I see that both of these TPGs have given out lots of 4, 5, and 6 grades for these cards.
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Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, W575-1 E. S. Rice version, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also T216 Kotton "NGO" card of Hugh Jennings. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo.
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Old 05-06-2024, 02:11 PM
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Val, this is an important topic. Imagine the Board giving SGC a set lesson. And convincing them. Well done for you guys. I do have a question though: The ones that are numbered with some kind of id lettering on top of the card are 2's or 1's? I have a nice Cobb with these markings on top so am interested.
The cards with the card # and G-4-22 at top are what we are calling W501-1or more simply put they are what Burdick described when he listed the set as W501.

The W501-2 are the parallel set that has been essentially moved from being incorrectly grouped with W575-1 to being called W501-2 as they are a complete parallel set in size/subjects/physical characteristics to W501-1 only lacking the card # and G-4-22 at the top.

*Side note is that the G-4-22 is likely referring to the date of issue/production. At least that is my speculation. (April 1922)
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Old 05-06-2024, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ValKehl View Post
Looking at these 4 cards, I just noticed something else that may enable one to quickly distinguish a W501 card (both types) from a W575-1 card. The open-space distance between the line with the player's name and the line with the position and team name is GREATER on the W501 cards than it is on the W575-1 cards. I wonder if this holds true for all the W501 and W575-1 cards. Rhett, what thinketh you?
Great observation Val. I would like to check to see if I have some examples that backup your line spacing theories between the W501-1, W501-2, and W575-1 cards.

And just in case what John was asking is identifying W501-1 cards (formerly known just as W501), below is a W501-1 example, which all have the 'G-4-22' and card number at top border. Unless the card has had its top border cut off below the point where this possible printed info would be. Then I do not believe a W501 card can have its identification narrowed down to be specifically a W501-1 or W501-2.

Let us know anyone out there if there is some way to differentiate a W501 card in this type of scenario mentioned above.


Brian (ain't my W501-1, no way, no how)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg w501terry.jpg (193.6 KB, 40 views)

Last edited by brianp-beme; 05-06-2024 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 05-06-2024, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
Val, this is an important topic. Imagine the Board giving SGC a set lesson. And convincing them. Well done for you guys. I do have a question though: The ones that are numbered with some kind of id lettering on top of the card are 2's or 1's? I have a nice Cobb with these markings on top so am interested.
John, I now realize that I misinterpreted your question, hence my response in post #27 above is not relevant. Sorry about this. Rhett and BrianP have appropritely responded to your question.
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Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, W575-1 E. S. Rice version, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also T216 Kotton "NGO" card of Hugh Jennings. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo.
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Old 05-06-2024, 06:37 PM
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Great points made, guys. I am a W575-1 fan and actually classify a lot of the really rare backs to being W575-1 with an ad back....
Yeah, no way that SGC AUT Johnson, above, is a W575-1....
Here are some more original W575-1s shown before too. Much less grainy, or more focused, than the W501s... (shown many times but they seem relevent..)
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Old 05-06-2024, 07:36 PM
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Speaking about the W501 Zeb Terry (which I don't own) that I showed previously, here is a run I was fortunate enough over the years to assemble of his cards in the E121/W501/W575 family. I think it illustrates the differences between the various sets, and helps amplify the spacing remarks Val previously made. Even if you are not good at identifying if a card is grainy or not grainy, or its thickness, both of which I sometimes have difficulty with, or if all you have to judge a card are scans, it seems like the below noted similarities/differences can help us spot what any given card belongs to which set.


e121terryquad 001 (640x275).jpgw501w575trio 001 (640x272).jpg
e121terryquad 002 (640x274).jpgw501w575triobacks 001 (640x267).jpg

The first 3 from the left on the above scans are all versions of the E121 Series of 80 set. Note the last line on the backs are all in different style fonts. And the third one over has its first line ending in 'eighty', instead of 'the'. Now note that all three of these separate issues of the Series of 80 have the close spacing between the player name line of text and position/team line of text. Also note that Zeb's position is spelled out as '2nd B.'.

The fourth card from the left is Terry's E121 from the Series of 120 set. The first line on its back includes '120', which is a basic way to identify that it is indeed from the Series of 120 issue. On its front note the wider spacing between the player's name line and the position/team line. Also note that his position is identified as 2B, which is how American Caramel handled the position abbreviations in this set.

So much for the E121 background info in regards to the W501-1, W501-2 and W575-1 group of cards. As can be seen in the back scans, the final three cards in the row all have blank backs. The fifth card in the row is a W501-1 strip card (traditionally identified as simply 'W501'). This can be easily identified (if not cut from the strip it came from too close to the photo at the top border) by the 'G-4-22' in the top left border, and its card number at top right. Note that is has the same spacing between lines on its bottom front, as Val previously pointed out, and the same position abbreviation as the E121 Series of 120 example to its left.

The sixth card from the left is basically identical (spacing and position abbreviation) to its W501-1 friend to the left of it, as well as these same specification as seen in the E21 Series of 120 example. The difference, as visible in the scan, lies only in that it does not include the 'G-4-22' and card number on the top border. This Terry example is from the newly recognized (by SGC) W501-2 set, that Rhett identified and designated in an article many years ago in the VCBC magazine (I believe the VCBC...I don't have a copy in front of me). These, like the W501-1, were probably issued in horizontal strips.

The final card, at the far right, is an example of the W575-1 set. Note that it has spacing and position abbreviations just like the three E121 Series of 80 examples. These W575-1 cards are likely to have been machine cut. The card just to the left of this W575-1 card would have traditionally been identified as W575-1 as well, but because of similarities to the W501-1 set (and its top border difference), it has earned its own W501-2 designation.

Let us know Rhett if this all sounds correct, and hopefully this can help folks identify all this jumble easier.


Brian
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Old 05-06-2024, 07:57 PM
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Nice recap, Brian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianp-beme View Post
Speaking about the W501 Zeb Terry (which I don't own) that I showed previously, here is a run I was fortunate enough over the years to assemble of his cards in the E121/W501/W575 family. I think it illustrates the differences between the various sets, and helps amplify the spacing remarks Val previously made. Even if you are not good at identifying if a card is grainy or not grainy, or its thickness, both of which I sometimes have difficulty with, or if all you have to judge a card are scans, it seems like the below noted similarities/differences can help us spot what any given card belongs to which set.


Attachment 620758Attachment 620759
Attachment 620760Attachment 620761

The first 3 from the left on the above scans are all versions of the E121 Series of 80 set. Note the last line on the backs are all in different style fonts. And the third one over has its first line ending in 'eighty', instead of 'the'. Now note that all three of these separate issues of the Series of 80 have the close spacing between the player name line of text and position/team line of text. Also note that Zeb's position is spelled out as '2nd B.'.

The fourth card from the left is Terry's E121 from the Series of 120 set. The first line on its back includes '120', which is a basic way to identify that it is indeed from the Series of 120 issue. On its front note the wider spacing between the player's name line and the position/team line. Also note that his position is identified as 2B, which is how American Caramel handled the position abbreviations in this set.

So much for the E121 background info in regards to the W501-1, W501-2 and W575-1 group of cards. As can be seen in the back scans, the final three cards in the row all have blank backs. The fifth card in the row is a W501-1 strip card (traditionally identified as simply 'W501'). This can be easily identified (if not cut from the strip it came from too close to the photo at the top border) by the 'G-4-22' in the top left border, and its card number at top right. Note that is has the same spacing between lines on its bottom front, as Val previously pointed out, and the same position abbreviation as the E121 Series of 120 example to its left.

The sixth card from the left is basically identical (spacing and position abbreviation) to its W501-1 friend to the left of it, as well as these same specification as seen in the E21 Series of 120 example. The difference, as visible in the scan, lies only in that it does not include the 'G-4-22' and card number on the top border. This Terry example is from the newly recognized (by SGC) W501-2 set, that Rhett identified and designated in an article many years ago in the VCBC magazine (I believe the VCBC...I don't have a copy in front of me). These, like the W501-1, were probably issued in horizontal strips.

The final card, at the far right, is an example of the W575-1 set. Note that it has spacing and position abbreviations just like the three E121 Series of 80 examples. These W575-1 cards are likely to have been machine cut. The card just to the left of this W575-1 card would have traditionally been identified as W575-1 as well, but because of similarities to the W501-1 set (and its top border difference), it has earned its own W501-2 designation.

Let us know Rhett if this all sounds correct, and hopefully this can help folks identify all this jumble easier.


Brian
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Old 05-06-2024, 09:51 PM
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Brian, not that Rhett needs me to respond for him, but the very-comprehensive, 8-page article entitled "1920-22 E121 and Related Sets: Many of the Mysteries Unraveled" that Rhett authored appeared in the Fall 2011 - Issue #26 of Old Cardboard Magazine. I have gone back and reviewed Rhett's masterpiece many times, and a few years ago, I scanned the 4 pages that cover the W575-1 and W501 issues - here they are:
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Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, W575-1 E. S. Rice version, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also T216 Kotton "NGO" card of Hugh Jennings. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo.
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