1963 Topps checklist question

[Kevvyg1026]

I agree that uncut sheets, miscuts, etc, are necessary to unequivocally know what was actually printed. However, in 1963, (like 1975), Topps used a printing method whereby two rows of cards were printed with the border colors together (i.e., one row right side up, the other upside down). Since Topps printed 11 cards in each row, these border counts should be multiples of 11.

Furthermore, if one believe that Topps printed 55 cards in the last series of 1963 (523 - 576 plus checklist), then that would be the only time during the period 1961 to 1973 that Topps printed 55 cards in a print run.

As far as 1967 goes, the 77 unique cards printed in the last series (534 - 609, plus checklist) over the spread of a 264 card print sheet was probably done using a pattern of four rows 4x each, two rows 3x each, and one row 2x each. This results in either 11 SPs, or 44 DPs.

[toppcat]

OK, I'm trying to puzzle out the fifth series with these new observations factored in. Based on the uncut sheet I show above, the 4th series runs from #284-370 according to the REA description (I have not checked further). However, to get to #446 where the 6th Series starts, it works out to a 77 card run for the 5th, if my math is correct, which seems an odd configuration given the findings in this thread.

Series 1: 1-109 (110 cards incl. extra checklist)
Series 2: 110-196 (88 cards, ditto)
Series 3: 197-283 (88 cards, ditto)
Series 4: 284-370 (88 cards ditto)
Series 5: 371-446 (77 cards, ditto)
Series 6: 447-511 (66 cards, ditto)
Series 7: 512-576 (66 cards, as above)

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by toppcat

OK, I'm trying to puzzle out the fifth series with these new observations factored in. Based on the uncut sheet I show above, the 4th series runs from #284-370 according to the REA description (I have not checked further). However, to get to #446 where the 6th Series starts, it works out to a 77 card run for the 5th, if my math is correct, which seems an odd configuration given the findings in this thread.

Series 1: 1-109 (110 cards incl. extra checklist)
Series 2: 110-196 (88 cards, ditto)
Series 3: 197-283 (88 cards, ditto)
Series 4: 284-370 (88 cards ditto)
Series 5: 371-446 (77 cards, ditto)
Series 6: 447-511 (66 cards, ditto)
Series 7: 512-576 (66 cards, as above)

The series with 77 cards is the series that has the 11 double prints that have cropping differences and statistical differences, Norm Cash, Don Zimmer, etc. Those 11 double prints bring it up to a normal 88 cards.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by toppcat

OK, I'm trying to puzzle out the fifth series with these new observations factored in. Based on the uncut sheet I show above, the 4th series runs from #284-370 according to the REA description (I have not checked further). However, to get to #446 where the 6th Series starts, it works out to a 77 card run for the 5th, if my math is correct, which seems an odd configuration given the findings in this thread.

Series 1: 1-109 (110 cards incl. extra checklist)
Series 2: 110-196 (88 cards, ditto)
Series 3: 197-283 (88 cards, ditto)
Series 4: 284-370 (88 cards ditto)
Series 5: 371-446 (77 cards, ditto)
Series 6: 447-511 (66 cards, ditto)
Series 7: 512-576 (66 cards, as above)

To follow up, the 11 double prints are Norm Cash, Don Zimmer, Al McBean, Jerry Walker, Wes Stock, Bob Oldis, Roy Face, Don Lee, Jim Davenport, Johnnie Wyatt, and a four player rookie card with Ed Kirkpatrick.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

To follow up, the 11 double prints are Norm Cash, Don Zimmer, Al McBean, Jerry Walker, Wes Stock, Bob Oldis, Roy Face, Don Lee, Jim Davenport, Johnnie Wyatt, and a four player rookie card with Ed Kirkpatrick.

Ah, I missed that-thanks. Kinda weird though, right? Makes you wonder if there was a production issue of some kind.

On a related note, I think certain sheet positions in certain years can affect SP status. Some cards probably were probably cut or damaged so badly at the very end of the process they got chucked. Edges and corners can be problematic but other positions too it seems.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Ah, I missed that-thanks. Kinda weird though, right? Makes you wonder if there was a production issue of some kind.

I think it was done strictly out of the necessity to have a full 22 card color block to fill out a complete sheet and they probably didn’t have the time to create the new cards and this was the easiest and quickest solution at the time.

[vrechek]

Fun stuff, especially 57 years later. I noted -
Sugar's Bible from 1977 has the last series starting at #525,
Beckett #3 from 1981 starts it at #507 (as per the Topps checklist #509)
Beckett #14 from 1992 starts it at #523
SCD Catalog from 1999 starts it at #523
SCD Catalog from 2016 dodges it all by going from 447-576 for the high series
PSA today starts it at #523
No one much bothers with the reprinted checklist #509 issue.
Len Brown of Topps mentioned to me the need to match up the bases in this set like they did with the 1953s to avoid base colors bleeding over to where they shouldn't be.
Just looking at the last printing, it sure makes sense to me that they likely printed #509 along with #512 - #576 to have 66 cards with nicely matched bases - 22 of each color. I don't think the circle insets were as critical since I see some from an uncut sheet in the first series that don't all match.

Interesting also that the extra 11 cards mentioned in Series 5 are all found with cropping variations.
Yes, the bases should match up - except when they don't as in the case of #21, #28, #40 and #105 which seem to have some wrong adjacent base colors on miscuts.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by vrechek

I don't think the circle insets were as critical since I see some from an uncut sheet in the first series that don't all match.

Here is a scan of the first series sheet. Can you please tell me which player card has an inset circle color that doesn't match up to the other player cards in the same horizontal row? It doesn't apply to manager cards, team cards, multi player rookie cards, multi player special cards, or checklists. Just mention the horizontal row number and which card it is on that row. ETA: There is least one card on this sheet that has a rookie trophy in place of the inset circle, Ed Charles.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by vrechek

Yes, the bases should match up - except when they don't as in the case of #21, #28, #40 and #105 which seem to have some wrong adjacent base colors on miscuts.

You are referring to cards that are on the outer edge of the sheet and if they are off-center a certain way will show an anomaly of the printing sheet, it has nothing to do with the card that is above, below, or beside it. There are no cards to that side of them. ETA: there are people that try to sell these as variations on eBay, which I don't agree with. I have seen them with different colors, blue, yellow, and white.

[Kevvyg1026]

The 5th series does appear to be a 77 card run. The cards 371 - 446 (plus checklist) contain 33 cards with a red border, 22 cards with a yellow border, and 22 cards with a green border. It could haven been printed with a 4 rows 3x each and 3 rows 4x each (essentially no real SPs) or four rows 4x, two rows 3x, and one row 2x (so 11 SPs). Based on the research by Vrecheck, I speculate that it was the 4x3 + 3x4, with one of the red rows having a print issue on the sheet.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

The 5th series does appear to be a 77 card run. The cards 371 - 446 (plus checklist) contain 33 cards with a red border, 22 cards with a yellow border, and 22 cards with a green border. It could haven been printed with a 4 rows 3x each and 3 rows 4x each (essentially no real SPs) or four rows 4x, two rows 3x, and one row 2x (so 11 SPs). Based on the research by Vrecheck, I speculate that it was the 4x3 + 3x4, with one of the red rows having a print issue on the sheet.

That is the series that has the 11 double printed red based green inset circle cards with the noticeable cropping differences on the front and some of them have differences on the back. Topps did that to fill out a full 22 card block for that series sheet. I doubt very seriously that Topps printed any sheets with anything other than 22 card color blocks on any 1963 baseball series sheets. ETA: The Topps sheet creators went through a lot of trouble to create those 11 double prints, there was no reason for those 11 double print cards other than the necessity to fill out a full 22 card color block to complete a 132 card sheet consisting of six color blocks of 22 cards each.

[Kevvyg1026]

My conclusion after reading all of the posts regarding my original post is that the border and inset colors have to match up and are in multiples of 11.

Therefore, either the print runs for Series 6 and 7 are wrong in the price guides and should be 447 - 511 (with the appropriate 431 checklist) for series 6 and 512 to 576 plus 509 checklist for series 7 or Topps inserted a lot of DPs in both series 6 and 7 to make the colors match (I find the latter hard to believe).

The SPs currently listed in price guides for the 6th series, despite being accepted for over 50 years by the industry, just don't match up with respect to border colors and certainly don't occur in multiples of 11, so I question their validity.

If the number scheme I proposed for the print runs 6 & 7 occurred, the colors match up and no SPs occur. My fervent hope is that some uncut material for either series would be found so we can ascertain what actually transpired.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

My conclusion after reading all of the posts regarding my original post is that the border and inset colors have to match up and are in multiples of 11.

Therefore, either the print runs for Series 6 and 7 are wrong in the price guides and should be 447 - 511 (with the appropriate 431 checklist) for series 6 and 512 to 576 plus 509 checklist for series 7 or Topps inserted a lot of DPs in both series 6 and 7 to make the colors match (I find the latter hard to believe).

The SPs currently listed in price guides for the 6th series, despite being accepted for over 50 years by the industry, just don't match up with respect to border colors and certainly don't occur in multiples of 11, so I question their validity.

If the number scheme I proposed for the print runs 6 & 7 occurred, the colors match up and no SPs occur. My fervent hope is that some uncut material for either series would be found so we can ascertain what actually transpired.

Agree 100%, the 6th and 7th series are each 66 cards, which each having 3 different color 22 card blocks and no short prints. It’s possible for a 22 card color block to be short printed on a 1963 Topps sheet but that wouldn’t make any sense in a series of 66 cards on a 132 card sheet or a 264 card double sheet. I would also add that all 1963 Topps sheets were printed in 22 card color blocks, the 5th series has 77 cards but there were 11 double prints created in order to fill out a 22 card color block making it in essence an 88 card series. Unless some partial sheets or miscut cards showing two different color base cards on the same card show up it will be virtually impossible to show the layouts of the 22 card color blocks on either the 6th or 7th series sheets. I believe the 7th series sheet has the 22 card yellow block at either the top or the bottom of the sheet because it has a recurring print flaw of a horizontal row missing border lines but I can’t prove it, but it wouldn’t make sense for that flaw to affect a horizontal row in the middle of the sheet.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

My conclusion after reading all of the posts regarding my original post is that the border and inset colors have to match up and are in multiples of 11.

Therefore, either the print runs for Series 6 and 7 are wrong in the price guides and should be 447 - 511 (with the appropriate 431 checklist) for series 6 and 512 to 576 plus 509 checklist for series 7 or Topps inserted a lot of DPs in both series 6 and 7 to make the colors match (I find the latter hard to believe).

The SPs currently listed in price guides for the 6th series, despite being accepted for over 50 years by the industry, just don't match up with respect to border colors and certainly don't occur in multiples of 11, so I question their validity.

If the number scheme I proposed for the print runs 6 & 7 occurred, the colors match up and no SPs occur. My fervent hope is that some uncut material for either series would be found so we can ascertain what actually transpired.

Disagree 100%. Dealers at the time sold by the series and the 7th series started with 523. There has been no evidence given to explain this fact.

Please explain how we should expect the SPs to fall if the series were 447-522 and 523-576. We know Topps double printed cards every year 1961-1968 including the 5th series in 1963, so why is it hard to believe they double printed cards in the 6th and 7th series?

[Kevvyg1026]

DPs occur certainly in Series 1 for every year through 1969, whether or not they are listed in price guides. This is because Series 1 had 110 cards printed in the sheet (checklist 1 was printed twice, so cards 1-109), with 42 of those cards printed 3x in the sheet, 66 cards printed twice within the sheet, and the checklist 1 printed 6 x in the sheet. The cards printed 3x in this series are the ones sometimes labeled DPs in the current price guides (e.g., 66 Rose, Hunter, or Mantle).

In 1967, the series 534 - 609 has DPs labeled in current price guides. This has not yet been completely explained, but I suspect that the DPs are because there were 44 cards printed 4x, 22 cards printed 3x, and 11 cards printed twice within the 264 card sheet. The cards printed 4x are the DPs.

Although in earlier years (i.e., 50s), Topps might insert a second copy of a card in a different row, no uncut material that I have seen from 1961-1969 exhibits this procedure. In other words, a row of 11 cards maintains the same 11 cards every time that row shows up in the sheet.

To answer your second question, if the printing for 1963 was done as series 6 (447 - 522) and series 7 (523 - 576), then series 6 would need to have an extra 22 cards printed (6R, 9Y, and 7B) in order to match border colors or, alternatively, there would have to be 11 cards short printed (5 fewer cards with red border, 2 less yellow border, and 4 less blue border). Those 22 cards would be DPs or the 11 cards would be SP.

Similarly, series 7 would require an additional 11 cards printed, with a border color of 4R, 3Y, and 4B to be DPs in order to have the border colors match up.

As I mentioned earlier, there is a conflict between price guide information, vendor cases & other anecdotal information, and the print pattern requirements since the border colors must occur in multiples of 11 for the print series.

Hopefully, someone will come forward with some uncut material that can help resolve the conflict. But I also find it interesting that if the printing really was as 447-511 and 512 - 576, then all borders and insets colors occur in multiples of 11, as they should, and no SPs or DPs exist.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by rats60

Disagree 100%. Dealers at the time sold by the series and the 7th series started with 523. There has been no evidence given to explain this fact.

Please explain how we should expect the SPs to fall if the series were 447-522 and 523-576. We know Topps double printed cards every year 1961-1968 including the 5th series in 1963, so why is it hard to believe they double printed cards in the 6th and 7th series?

Actually many dealers just listed the series and sold them that way. Some had the number ranges some didn't and they were all over the place when they did show up in ads. I've been reviewing and scanning my run of The Trader Speaks and wish this thread had started a month ago as there are many series-by-series type ads I didn't scan as I'm tracking other things. I did find this in the April 1979 issue of TTS though, looks like some people got it right back then:

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Furthermore, if one believe that Topps printed 55 cards in the last series of 1963 (523 - 576 plus checklist), then that would be the only time during the period 1961 to 1973 that Topps printed 55 cards in a print run.

This is not true. Topps printed 55 cards in the 7th series in 1961. They also printed 77 cards in the 6th series. We know that as a fact because the 7th series cards are much rarer than the 6th series. So, when it would have made sense to print 66 and 66 instead of 77 and 55, so the cards would be in equal quantities, Topps deliberately chose to print in unequal numbers. We also believe that Topps short printed one row of 11 cards in the 5th series.

So, we know that Topps was playing games with the 1961 set. Why would they have done things in a way that didn't create SPs in 1963? They also only printed 55 cards in the 7th series in 1964 while printing 77 in the 6th series. There are clearly SPs in those series too, but 1964 and 1965 high numbers are plentiful so it has never been an issue.

[Kevvyg1026]

Regarding earlier post which stated that 55 card series were issued in both 61 & 64:

The 7th series uncut (mostly) sheet I have seen for 1961 has 66 unique cards on it (not 55). Plus price guides show common cards as 523 - 589, which if the checklist is included gives 66 cards (since two numbers are missing). The 7th series for 1964 also has 66 cards (523-587, plus checklist).

[Cliff Bowman]

Getting back to the 7th series sheet, I know absolutely without a doubt that the top two rows are the yellow based cards. They could also be considered the bottom of the sheet, I don't know how to tell which end is up on a 1963 sheet. There is a recurring print flaw that affects the first eight yellow based blue inset circle cards, Ed Sadowski, Gus Bell, Cardinals team card, Ray Herbert, Sam Mele, Lou Klimchock, Mike McCormick, and Cliff Cook. The next three cards are Russ Snyder/Billy Klaus, Billy Klaus/Russ Snyder, and Don Cardwell. I know it's those three cards because they have blue inset circles and I know that Cardwell is the edge card, I just don't know the placement of Snyder and Klaus yet. The second row starts with the McNally multi player rookie card, but I don't know the order of the next ten cards, a yellow based checklist and nine yellow based red inset circle cards.

[Cliff Bowman]

Here are the last three cards on the 1963 Topps 7th series top row of yellow based blue inset circle cards, I don't know the order of Snyder and Klaus but Cardwell is definitely the 11th card on the edge.

[Cliff Bowman]

After scouring eBay, COMC, and WorthPoint I found these scans of miscut 1963 6th and 7th series cards to use to try to piece together each of the sheets as much as possible. The Freehan rookie card, McNally rookie card, and Cardwell are edge cards. If anyone can add any please do.

[G1911]

May not show up well in photo as this site likes to really compress my several hundred KB images down to 19kb on upload, and the evidence is subtle.

516 Purnal Goldy - was not the rightmost card in a row, a thin part of the next cards border can be seen at right.

567 Jim Duffalo - was not the leftmost card in a row, a very tiny part of the black picture frame can be seen upper left.

556 Jim Worthington was not (at least, in one of the rows he appeared on) in bottom row of sheet; I can't quite make out what team name and position partially appears at bottom here, but I will play with a zoomed in detail photo to try and ID