Most overrated baseball superstar ever?

[Tomi]

Jeter. He is better than other HOFer's but his stature in baseball is just over hyped more than anyone else.

[philliesfan]

definitely Jeter...…..

[bnorth]

All time Mickey Mantle by a country mile.

To you fine gentlemen that said Jeter please name one player that tried harder. I am not a fan and don't own a single Jeter card. I did go to a lot of Yankee games and he seemed to try his absolute hardest on every play.

[philliesfan]

name 1 player that trier harder...………..Pete Rose.

[mcgwirecom]

Originally Posted by philliesfan

name 1 player that trier harder...………..Pete Rose.

I agree, Charlie Hustle! He willed himself to be the player he was. Was not blessed with as much skill as most HOFers but got there on his own.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by philliesfan

name 1 player that trier harder...………..Pete Rose.

I have had that discussion with a fellow member and long time friend a few times. We always agree they both gave it all.

[Jim65]

Nolan Ryan

[Frank A]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Nolan Ryan

I completely agree. His stats stink. Beyond over rated. I don't care how fast he could throw. I don't care that he played for some crummy teams. A lot of pitchers did and they still had great stats.
324 wins and 292 losses. Pretty close to being a 500 pitcher. I guess that would be average. 27 years in the majors.

[Tomi]

Originally Posted by bnorth

All time Mickey Mantle by a country mile.

To you fine gentlemen that said Jeter please name one player that tried harder. I am not a fan and don't own a single Jeter card. I did go to a lot of Yankee games and he seemed to try his absolute hardest on every play.

Just go to baseballreference.com and see the amont of times Jeter led the league in any category and then Mantle. Mantle on this list is absurd by a country mile

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by bnorth

All time Mickey Mantle by a country mile.

To you fine gentlemen that said Jeter please name one player that tried harder. I am not a fan and don't own a single Jeter card. I did go to a lot of Yankee games and he seemed to try his absolute hardest on every play.

LOL on both points. Mantle is 7th all-time in OPS+. I'm sorry, but when the names on an all-time list for league adjusted one base plus power are Ruth, Williams, Bonds, Gehrig, Trout and Hornsby, how, exactly, are you overrated?

And Jeter "tried harder"?

This is a joke post, right? Jeter is tied for 60th in career WAR, yet he's tenth in career plate appearances. A 5+ WAR is considered All Star level. In 18 seasons of at least 119 games (and more than 145 in all but two of those), he had a 5+ WAR 6 times. 6 all-star seasons in 18.

He was a singles hitter that hit accidentally hit an occasional extra base hit, and played subpar defense. He's in the Hall because he hit for average, played longer than Jesus was on the Earth, and was Captain of the Yankees.

If we're talking about Reggie sticking around too long to pad his stats, Jeter is guilty of the same. His last five seasons, he was a below average offensive player. This is 2010-2014. At the end of the 2009 season, he had 2,747 hits. His last five seasons, when he amassed 718 hits, his OPS+ was 94. 6 points below league average. Only a decent 2012 season saves that last five from being a complete dumpster fire. 2010-2014 he was worth a combined 3.8 bWAR. The New York Yankees paid Derek Jeter $82,239,364 to be worth, on average, about 0.7 WAR per season.

He was terrible. They paid him $21,641,947 per win above replacement.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

LOL on both points. Mantle is 7th all-time in OPS+. I'm sorry, but when the names on an all-time list for league adjusted one base plus power are Ruth, Williams, Bonds, Gehrig, Trout and Hornsby, how, exactly, are you overrated?
.

OPS+ is a worthless stat to compare different players from different eras. No one is taking .298/.421/.557/.977 over .325/.398/.579/.977. It also doesn't adjust for park even though it claims to. Proof that Mantle is overrated. He might be top 20-25, but no where close to 7th.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by rats60

OPS+ is a worthless stat to compare different players from different eras. No one is taking .298/.421/.557/.977 over .325/.398/.579/.977. It also doesn't adjust for park even though it claims to. Proof that Mantle is overrated. He might be top 20-25, but no where close to 7th.

"Might be top 20-25"......?

Mantle's lifetime road OPS was .958. His WAR/season is also top 10 caliber.

I understand people thinking he's a little overrated (though I don't agree), but this is taking it way too far.

[Touch'EmAll]

Yeah, I am little bored ... waiting for the "Last Dance". Here is my ramble, right or not that's ok. Effective vs. Efficient. Ryan ranks #20 on career WAR for pitchers - just behind Steve Carlton at #19, and ahead of such notables as Bob Gibson, Carl Hubbell, Kershaw, Bob Feller and Verlander. Pretty decent if you consider WAR to be effectiveness. Now efficiency, I will admit Ryan not very efficient - he pitched sooo many pitches to get the average out and win. Strikeout pitchers do tend to be less efficient than easier throwing grounder/fly ball/control pitchers - takes more pitches to get the out - more pitches thrown has higher chance of walks, more walks tends to give up more runs.

Back to original topic, most overrated. A lot of modern-ish players listed, but going way back I might say Joe Jackson was overrated. Looking at his stats compared to contemporaries Cobb, Speaker, Hornsby & Heilman a bit later, Jackson overall not quite as good as you might expect.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

"Might be top 20-25"......?

Mantle's lifetime road OPS was .958. His WAR/season is also top 10 caliber.

I understand people thinking he's a little overrated (though I don't agree), but this is taking it way too far.

Thanks for proving my point. DiMaggio's lifetime road OPS was 1.016 and that is with losing age 28-30 seasons to World War 2.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by rats60

OPS+ is a worthless stat to compare different players from different eras. No one is taking .298/.421/.557/.977 over .325/.398/.579/.977. It also doesn't adjust for park even though it claims to. Proof that Mantle is overrated. He might be top 20-25, but no where close to 7th.

He might be top 20-25?



You're so obtuse, it's comical.

I ran a report for all position players in the modern era (from 1919 forward), sorted by WAR. Minimum 2,000 games played. 201 players in total. Mickey Mantle is 11th all-time in WAR for modern era position players.

But hold on. I exported the workbook that Baseball Reference's index tool created, and imported it into Microsoft Excel. I then eliminated all data but WAR, and games played. I then created a simple formula to compute the rate (# of games played per WAR) for all those players.

These are the big boys. The position players that have created the most value (WAR) of all modern era players.

Mickey Mantle has the 6th-best rate of WAR of the 201 players with over 2,000 games played in the modern era. He's behind only Babe Ruth, Barry Bonds, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig and Willie Mays.

First column ranks rate of WAR. Second column ranks total WAR


Mantle played in 2,401 games, and generated 110.2 WAR. 2,401 games is 14.82098765432099 162 game seasons. Per 162 games played, he averaged 7.44 WAR. An MVP season is 8 WAR. His average season was MVP caliber.

And his peak? His peak is ridiculous. From 1952, when he was 20 years old, through the 1962 season, when he turned 30, he played 1,579 games and amassed 89.2 bWAR. 1,579 games played is 9.746913580246914 162 game seasons. That means during his 11 year peak, he averaged 9.75 WAR per 162 games played.

So please, for the love of God--stop embarrassing yourself, man.

Mickey Mantle is inarguably one of the ten best offensive players of the modern era, and one of the truly elite players in baseball history. End of discussion.

[the 'stache]

Oh, and by the way, let's look just at the players in the game, in their primes, at the same time Mantle was. A 11 year period from 1954 to 1964.

During this period:
Mickey Mantle was between age 22-32
Willie Mays 23-33
Frank Robinson 20-28
Hank Aaron 20-30
Duke Snider 27-37
Stan Musial 33-42
Eddie Mathews 22-32
Orlando Cepeda 20-26
Rocky Colaviro 21-30
Al Kaline 19-29
Ernie Banks 23-33
Joe Adcock 26-36
Roger Maris 22-29
Jackie Jensen 27-34
Roy Sievers 27-37
Gil Hodges 30-39

Here's a link to the spreadsheet. While their ages don't perfectly line up, it's pretty close for some of the greatest hitters in the history of the game. Besides Mantle, Mays is in his prime. Aaron is in his prime. This includes several of Frank Robinson's prime years. All of Eddie Mathew's prime. Al Kaline's Prime. Ernie Banks' prime. A good chunk of Orlando Cepeda's prime. Even Stan Musial, playing into his early 40s, is still a force to be reckoned with for this decade, though his later years will have dropped his averages.

You get the point.

Look at Mantle, against some of the best the game has ever produced, at the same times of their careers. He tops them all. Nobody in the Majors combined Mantle's power and on base ability. And you'll notice, Mantle was a .312 hitter. His career average only dropped when his knees gave out, and he couldn't run anymore. In his prime, he was literally unstoppable.



Just stop with this 20-25 BS.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

He might be top 20-25?



You're so obtuse, it's comical.

I ran a report for all position players in the modern era (from 1919 forward), sorted by WAR. Minimum 2,000 games played. 201 players in total. Mickey Mantle is 11th all-time in WAR for modern era position players.

But hold on. I exported the workbook that Baseball Reference's index tool created, and imported it into Microsoft Excel. I then eliminated all data but WAR, and games played. I then created a simple formula to compute the rate (# of games played per WAR) for all those players.

These are the big boys. The position players that have created the most value (WAR) of all modern era players.

Mickey Mantle has the 6th-best rate of WAR of the 201 players with over 2,000 games played in the modern era. He's behind only Babe Ruth, Barry Bonds, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig and Willie Mays.

First column ranks rate of WAR. Second column ranks total WAR


Mantle played in 2,401 games, and generated 110.2 WAR. 2,401 games is 14.82098765432099 162 game seasons. Per 162 games played, he averaged 7.44 WAR. An MVP season is 8 WAR. His average season was MVP caliber.

And his peak? His peak is ridiculous. From 1952, when he was 20 years old, through the 1962 season, when he turned 30, he played 1,579 games and amassed 89.2 bWAR. 1,579 games played is 9.746913580246914 162 game seasons. That means during his 11 year peak, he averaged 9.75 WAR per 162 games played.

So please, for the love of God--stop embarrassing yourself, man.

Mickey Mantle is inarguably one of the ten best offensive players of the modern era, and one of the truly elite players in baseball history. End of discussion.

LOL. WAR what is it good for? Absolutely nothing! Joe DiMaggio not even included in your list proves my point.

[brewing]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

These are the big boys. The position players that have created the most value (WAR) of all modern era players.

First column ranks rate of WAR. Second column ranks total WAR

What I have always found amazing is the the lack of popularity of the Topps baseball cards of some of these guys on this list. Specifically, Musial, Robinson, and Mathews. Clearly some of the greatest hitters in the Topps era, yet their Topps cards (other than rookies) are priced ridiculously low compared to Mantle or Clemente.

[mcgwirecom]

Originally Posted by Tomi

Jeter. He is better than other HOFer's but his stature in baseball is just over hyped more than anyone else.

Amen brother. If he played anywhere else he would be Paul Molitor