Heritage Rosen Mantle - Greatest Card Ever Auctioned?

[insidethewrapper]

Bob : Would it have been better to leave this 52 T Mantle card to his kids in his will and then they would get it at current market value when he died and they could have sold it and therefore eliminate most taxes ?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Bob : Would it have been better to leave this 52 T Mantle card to his kids in his will and then they would get it at current market value when he died and they could have sold it and therefore eliminate most taxes ?

Short answer is......maybe.

Under current estate tax law, when a person passes, all of the items they leave to their heirs get what is called a stepped-up basis to the then current fair market value of the assets as of the day the person passes, or potentially at an alternative valuation date six months later. Initially on the surface, leaving the Mantle to his kids when he passes so they get a basis step-up and can then sell the card right away for virtually no gain would seem like a slam dunk way to save his kids the most taxes. But that only saves them the Long-Term Capital Gains (LTCG) tax on the sale of the card, which for federal income tax purposes is currently capped at 20%.

However, in doing so you are forgetting about the potential federal estate taxes that may be due on the card being left as part of the kid's inheritance. In return for getting the basis-step, it also means that same current fair market value the inherited assets are given is included as part of the deceased person's taxable estate. And current federal estate tax rates go as high as 40% once the taxable part of an estate reaches $1M, and higher. Every person has a lifetime estate and gift tax exemption that they get to offset against potential taxes due on gifts they make during their lifetime, or against the value of the estate they leave their heirs. This exemption amount under current law is at $12.06M, per person, for 2022. The vast majority of people in the U.S. don't leave estates worth that much, so they end up having no federal estate tax due, and their heirs get everything at a stepped-up basis so there is also virtually no tax due if they sell things right away after the person passed.

What we don't know is what else the person may have in their estate. If some, or even all, of that lifetime gift and estate tax exemption amount is used up by other thing's in the person's estate, or from gifts they had given away during their lifetime, that means some, or even all, of the then current fair market value of the Rosen Mantle card left to the deceased's children can be subject to the up to 40% federal estate tax rate. So in that case, the kids get a stepped-up basis and no 20% LTCG tax on selling the card, but the estate can get hit with a 40% estate tax on the card's fair market value. See the potential issue. And so you know, the current administration talked about reducing that lifetime estate and gift tax exemption amount down to around $3.5M to help fund the Build Back Better program, but it didn't go through. But still, unless something else is changed, the current estate/gift exemption amount is set to expire in 2025 as part of the tax law that passed when Trump was in office, and the lifetime exemption amount will likely go down by at least $5M-$6M. The adjustment is based on inflation, so the exact amount won't be known till 2025. In that case, knowing that lifetime exemption is scheduled to drop in 2025, unless the current owner expects to pass away before 2025, it may actually make more sense for him to gift the card to his kids before the exemption amount drops so that he at least takes advantage of passing on as much of his estate to the kids with no gift or estate tax as possible. Once that exemption amount drops, the potential tax savings from the lost exemption is gone. Plus, assuming the card will continue to increase in value over time, moving it on to his kids today can get all the future appreciation (and the potential resulting estate taxes) out of his estate. Yet he can still hold on to and enjoy the card since it is still in his family.

And I'm not even going to get into the additional implications of if he's married or not. For now, I really know nothing about the person selling the Rosen Mantle card, and would need to have virtually done an entire estate planning review and calculation before seriously trying, and being able to realistically answer, your question.

[clamendo]

Originally Posted by BobC

Short answer is......maybe.

Under current estate tax law, when a person passes, all of the items they leave to their heirs get what is called a stepped-up basis to the then current fair market value of the assets as of the day the person passes, or potentially at an alternative valuation date six months later. Initially on the surface, leaving the Mantle to his kids when he passes so they get a basis step-up and can then sell the card right away for virtually no gain would seem like a slam dunk way to save his kids the most taxes. But that only saves them the Long-Term Capital Gains (LTCG) tax on the sale of the card, which for federal income tax purposes is currently capped at 20%.

However, in doing so you are forgetting about the potential federal estate taxes that may be due on the card being left as part of the kid's inheritance. In return for getting the basis-step, it also means that same current fair market value the inherited assets are given is included as part of the deceased person's taxable estate. And current federal estate tax rates go as high as 40% once the taxable part of an estate reaches $1M, and higher. Every person has a lifetime estate and gift tax exemption that they get to offset against potential taxes due on gifts they make during their lifetime, or against the value of the estate they leave their heirs. This exemption amount under current law is at $12.06M, per person, for 2022. The vast majority of people in the U.S. don't leave estates worth that much, so they end up having no federal estate tax due, and their heirs get everything at a stepped-up basis so there is also virtually no tax due if they sell things right away after the person passed.

What we don't know is what else the person may have in their estate. If some, or even all, of that lifetime gift and estate tax exemption amount is used up by other thing's in the person's estate, or from gifts they had given away during their lifetime, that means some, or even all, of the then current fair market value of the Rosen Mantle card left to the deceased's children can be subject to the up to 40% federal estate tax rate. So in that case, the kids get a stepped-up basis and no 20% LTCG tax on selling the card, but the estate can get hit with a 40% estate tax on the card's fair market value. See the potential issue. And so you know, the current administration talked about reducing that lifetime estate and gift tax exemption amount down to around $3.5M to help fund the Build Back Better program, but it didn't go through. But still, unless something else is changed, the current estate/gift exemption amount is set to expire in 2025 as part of the tax law that passed when Trump was in office, and the lifetime exemption amount will likely go down by at least $5M-$6M. The adjustment is based on inflation, so the exact amount won't be known till 2025. In that case, knowing that lifetime exemption is scheduled to drop in 2025, unless the current owner expects to pass away before 2025, it may actually make more sense for him to gift the card to his kids before the exemption amount drops so that he at least takes advantage of passing on as much of his estate to the kids with no gift or estate tax as possible. Once that exemption amount drops, the potential tax savings from the lost exemption is gone. Plus, assuming the card will continue to increase in value over time, moving it on to his kids today can get all the future appreciation (and the potential resulting estate taxes) out of his estate. Yet he can still hold on to and enjoy the card since it is still in his family.

And I'm not even going to get into the additional implications of if he's married or not. For now, I really know nothing about the person selling the Rosen Mantle card, and would need to have virtually done an entire estate planning review and calculation before seriously trying, and being able to realistically answer, your question.

Someone else told me the same thing, but what about state taxes? I know it varies by state, but let’s say he lives in a wonderful democratically run state like NY or California?


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[Republicaninmass]

Cant wait for the PWCC "storage wars" style vault auction!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by clamendo

Someone else told me the same thing, but what about state taxes? I know it varies by state, but let’s say he lives in a wonderful democratically run state like NY or California?


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California currently has no estate or inheritance tax.

However, New York state does have an estate tax, but no inheritance tax. For 2022, the minimum threshold to be subject to New York's estate tax is $6.11M. As long as your taxable estate is worth less than this amount, there is no estate tax due New York. This exemption threshold amount is subject to change and goes up each year based on same inflation factor. However, New York also has a quirky twist to their estate tax law. As long as your estate value does not go up any higher than 105% of that estate tax exemption threshold, which for 2022 is $6,415,500 ($6.11M X 105%), you only pay New York estate tax on the value of the estate in excess of the 2022 exemption threshold amount of $6.11M.

But, go just $1 over the 105% amount of $6,415,500 to $6,415,501, and the entire value of the estate, including the previously exempt $6.11M, is now all subject to New York estate tax. And kind of like income taxes, New York estate taxes are calculated on a graduated tax rate schedule that starts at 3.06% on the first taxable dollars of the estate, and goes all the way up to 16.0% that starts once the taxable value of the estate goes over $10.1M. Here's New York state's current estate tax table for 2022 shown below.

So based on this, if someone passed away in 2022 and left the heirs a card valued for estate purposes at say $10M, and there was nothing else in the estate, that entire $10M would be subject to New York estate tax based on the table below, which would end up being $1,067,600 in estate tax due.


NEW YORK ESTATE TAX RATES
Taxable Estate* Base Taxes Paid Marginal Rate Rate Threshold**
$1 – $500,000 $0 3.06% $1
$500,000 – $1 million $15,300 5.0% $500,000
$1 million – $1.5 million $40,300 5.5% $1 million
$1.5 million – $2.1 million $67,800 6.5% $1.5 million
$2.1 million – $2.6 million $106,800 8.0% $2.1 million
$2.6 million – $3.1 million $146,800 8.8% $2.6 million
$3.1 million – $3.6 million $190,800 9.6% $3.1 million
$3.6 million – $4.1 million $238,800 10.4% $3.6 million
$4.1 million – $5.1 million $290,800 11.2% $4.1 million
$5.1 million – $6.1 million $402,800 12.0% $5.1 million
$6.1 million – $7.1 million $522,800 12.8% $6.1 million
$7.1 million – $8.1 million $650,800 13.6% $7.1 million
$8.1 million – $9.1 million $786,800 14.4% $8.1 million
$9.1 million – $10.1 million $930,800 15.2% $9.1 million
Over $10.1 million $1.082 million 16% $10.1 million

That help?

[clamendo]

Originally Posted by BobC

California currently has no estate or inheritance tax.

However, New York state does have an estate tax, but no inheritance tax. For 2022, the minimum threshold to be subject to New York's estate tax is $6.11M. As long as your taxable estate is worth less than this amount, there is no estate tax due New York. This exemption threshold amount is subject to change and goes up each year based on same inflation factor. However, New York also has a quirky twist to their estate tax law. As long as your estate value does not go up any higher than 105% of that estate tax exemption threshold, which for 2022 is $6,415,500 ($6.11M X 105%), you only pay New York estate tax on the value of the estate in excess of the 2022 exemption threshold amount of $6.11M.

But, go just $1 over the 105% amount of $6,415,500 to $6,415,501, and the entire value of the estate, including the previously exempt $6.11M, is now all subject to New York estate tax. And kind of like income taxes, New York estate taxes are calculated on a graduated tax rate schedule that starts at 3.06% on the first taxable dollars of the estate, and goes all the way up to 16.0% that starts once the taxable value of the estate goes over $10.1M. Here's New York state's current estate tax table for 2022 shown below.

So based on this, if someone passed away in 2022 and left the heirs a card valued for estate purposes at say $10M, and there was nothing else in the estate, that entire $10M would be subject to New York estate tax based on the table below, which would end up being $1,067,600 in estate tax due.


NEW YORK ESTATE TAX RATES
Taxable Estate*Base Taxes PaidMarginal RateRate Threshold**
$1 – $500,000$03.06%$1
$500,000 – $1 million$15,3005.0%$500,000
$1 million – $1.5 million$40,3005.5%$1 million
$1.5 million – $2.1 million$67,8006.5%$1.5 million
$2.1 million – $2.6 million$106,8008.0%$2.1 million
$2.6 million – $3.1 million$146,8008.8%$2.6 million
$3.1 million – $3.6 million$190,8009.6%$3.1 million
$3.6 million – $4.1 million$238,80010.4%$3.6 million
$4.1 million – $5.1 million$290,80011.2%$4.1 million
$5.1 million – $6.1 million$402,80012.0%$5.1 million
$6.1 million – $7.1 million$522,80012.8%$6.1 million
$7.1 million – $8.1 million$650,80013.6%$7.1 million
$8.1 million – $9.1 million$786,80014.4%$8.1 million
$9.1 million – $10.1 million$930,80015.2%$9.1 million
Over $10.1 million$1.082 million16%$10.1 million

That help?

Yes. But as I read this thread there is one scenario that has not been brought up but is very realistic. Medicaid! I wonder if you can put a card collection in an irrevocable trust? If you are unfortunate to have you or your spouse end up in a nursing home for any length of time, Medicaid will force the remaining spouse to spend down all your assets to about $80k. If your by yourself and you try to pass it down in a will you would be subject to Medicaid recovery. At $14k/month … you get the picture.


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[BobC]

Originally Posted by clamendo

Yes. But as I read this thread there is one scenario that has not been brought up but is very realistic. Medicaid! I wonder if you can put a card collection in an irrevocable trust? If you are unfortunate to have you or your spouse end up in a nursing home for any length of time, Medicaid will force the remaining spouse to spend down all your assets to about $80k. If your by yourself and you try to pass it down in a will you would be subject to Medicaid recovery. At $14k/month … you get the picture.


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Wow Carl, that is a whole different topic, and not actually tax related. If you really want, start a new thread in the watercooler section so we don't keep hijacking Jeff's thread. Quick answer though is there is a definite look back period, 5 years I believe. So if you made the transfer/gift more than 5 years before needing to apply for Medicaid to take over paying the bills, they can't touch you and come after the gift/transfer. That is why a lot of people with significant assets, and some dubious medical history or prognosis, often plan ahead and as they are getting older and proactively put all their assets into an irrevocable trust to get the clock ticking on that Medicaid lookback period.

Doing so though is considered a potential gift to the ultimate beneficiaries of the irrevocable trust. So depending on what you gift and how much it is currently valued at, and how many beneficiaries there are, you may have to file a federal gift tax return, and could end up having some gift tax implications and liability as well.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by BobC

Wow Carl, that is a whole different topic, and not actually tax related. If you really want, start a new thread in the watercooler section so we don't keep hijacking Jeff's thread. Quick answer though is there is a definite look back period, 5 years I believe. So if you made the transfer/gift more than 5 years before needing to apply for Medicaid to take over paying the bills, they can't touch you and come after the gift/transfer. That is why a lot of people with significant assets, and some dubious medical history or prognosis, often plan ahead and as they are getting older and proactively put all their assets into an irrevocable trust to get the clock ticking on that Medicaid lookback period.

Doing so though is considered a potential gift to the ultimate beneficiaries of the irrevocable trust. So depending on what you gift and how much it is currently valued at, and how many beneficiaries there are, you may have to file a federal gift tax return, and could end up having some gift tax implications and liability as well.

Well Since he is talking about an 80K Mantle Card All Good

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by BobC

California currently has no estate or inheritance tax.

However, New York state does have an estate tax, but no inheritance tax. For 2022, the minimum threshold to be subject to New York's estate tax is $6.11M. As long as your taxable estate is worth less than this amount, there is no estate tax due New York. This exemption threshold amount is subject to change and goes up each year based on same inflation factor. However, New York also has a quirky twist to their estate tax law. As long as your estate value does not go up any higher than 105% of that estate tax exemption threshold, which for 2022 is $6,415,500 ($6.11M X 105%), you only pay New York estate tax on the value of the estate in excess of the 2022 exemption threshold amount of $6.11M.

But, go just $1 over the 105% amount of $6,415,500 to $6,415,501, and the entire value of the estate, including the previously exempt $6.11M, is now all subject to New York estate tax. And kind of like income taxes, New York estate taxes are calculated on a graduated tax rate schedule that starts at 3.06% on the first taxable dollars of the estate, and goes all the way up to 16.0% that starts once the taxable value of the estate goes over $10.1M. Here's New York state's current estate tax table for 2022 shown below.

So based on this, if someone passed away in 2022 and left the heirs a card valued for estate purposes at say $10M, and there was nothing else in the estate, that entire $10M would be subject to New York estate tax based on the table below, which would end up being $1,067,600 in estate tax due.


NEW YORK ESTATE TAX RATES
Taxable Estate* Base Taxes Paid Marginal Rate Rate Threshold**
$1 – $500,000 $0 3.06% $1
$500,000 – $1 million $15,300 5.0% $500,000
$1 million – $1.5 million $40,300 5.5% $1 million
$1.5 million – $2.1 million $67,800 6.5% $1.5 million
$2.1 million – $2.6 million $106,800 8.0% $2.1 million
$2.6 million – $3.1 million $146,800 8.8% $2.6 million
$3.1 million – $3.6 million $190,800 9.6% $3.1 million
$3.6 million – $4.1 million $238,800 10.4% $3.6 million
$4.1 million – $5.1 million $290,800 11.2% $4.1 million
$5.1 million – $6.1 million $402,800 12.0% $5.1 million
$6.1 million – $7.1 million $522,800 12.8% $6.1 million
$7.1 million – $8.1 million $650,800 13.6% $7.1 million
$8.1 million – $9.1 million $786,800 14.4% $8.1 million
$9.1 million – $10.1 million $930,800 15.2% $9.1 million
Over $10.1 million $1.082 million 16% $10.1 million

That help?

I know all this is good information and helpful

But for me let's get back to the Card and which is better the 9.5 or the 10. Let's see what people think the over under on the 9.5 will be. Let's continue to have members show off their cards. Lets talk about Mantle and share stories

To much Tax talk for me

[chriskim]

I actually enjoy so much BobC's tax talk. I have been learning so much from his posts. I would hire BobC to handle my money if I ever won lottery!

Thank you BobC for sharing your knowledge as always!!!

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by chriskim

I actually enjoy so much BobC's tax talk. I have been learning so much from his posts. I would hire BobC to handle my money if I ever won lottery!

Thank you BobC for sharing your knowledge as always!!!

I agree it is great information and he has a good way of making it simple to understand.

I just want to have fun with the rest of the stuff

[BobC]

Originally Posted by chriskim

I actually enjoy so much BobC's tax talk. I have been learning so much from his posts. I would hire BobC to handle my money if I ever won lottery!

Thank you BobC for sharing your knowledge as always!!!

LOL

Chris, you are probably in the minority!