Heritage Rosen Mantle - Greatest Card Ever Auctioned?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by clamendo

Someone else told me the same thing, but what about state taxes? I know it varies by state, but let’s say he lives in a wonderful democratically run state like NY or California?


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California currently has no estate or inheritance tax.

However, New York state does have an estate tax, but no inheritance tax. For 2022, the minimum threshold to be subject to New York's estate tax is $6.11M. As long as your taxable estate is worth less than this amount, there is no estate tax due New York. This exemption threshold amount is subject to change and goes up each year based on same inflation factor. However, New York also has a quirky twist to their estate tax law. As long as your estate value does not go up any higher than 105% of that estate tax exemption threshold, which for 2022 is $6,415,500 ($6.11M X 105%), you only pay New York estate tax on the value of the estate in excess of the 2022 exemption threshold amount of $6.11M.

But, go just $1 over the 105% amount of $6,415,500 to $6,415,501, and the entire value of the estate, including the previously exempt $6.11M, is now all subject to New York estate tax. And kind of like income taxes, New York estate taxes are calculated on a graduated tax rate schedule that starts at 3.06% on the first taxable dollars of the estate, and goes all the way up to 16.0% that starts once the taxable value of the estate goes over $10.1M. Here's New York state's current estate tax table for 2022 shown below.

So based on this, if someone passed away in 2022 and left the heirs a card valued for estate purposes at say $10M, and there was nothing else in the estate, that entire $10M would be subject to New York estate tax based on the table below, which would end up being $1,067,600 in estate tax due.


NEW YORK ESTATE TAX RATES
Taxable Estate* Base Taxes Paid Marginal Rate Rate Threshold**
$1 – $500,000 $0 3.06% $1
$500,000 – $1 million $15,300 5.0% $500,000
$1 million – $1.5 million $40,300 5.5% $1 million
$1.5 million – $2.1 million $67,800 6.5% $1.5 million
$2.1 million – $2.6 million $106,800 8.0% $2.1 million
$2.6 million – $3.1 million $146,800 8.8% $2.6 million
$3.1 million – $3.6 million $190,800 9.6% $3.1 million
$3.6 million – $4.1 million $238,800 10.4% $3.6 million
$4.1 million – $5.1 million $290,800 11.2% $4.1 million
$5.1 million – $6.1 million $402,800 12.0% $5.1 million
$6.1 million – $7.1 million $522,800 12.8% $6.1 million
$7.1 million – $8.1 million $650,800 13.6% $7.1 million
$8.1 million – $9.1 million $786,800 14.4% $8.1 million
$9.1 million – $10.1 million $930,800 15.2% $9.1 million
Over $10.1 million $1.082 million 16% $10.1 million

That help?

[clamendo]

Originally Posted by BobC

California currently has no estate or inheritance tax.

However, New York state does have an estate tax, but no inheritance tax. For 2022, the minimum threshold to be subject to New York's estate tax is $6.11M. As long as your taxable estate is worth less than this amount, there is no estate tax due New York. This exemption threshold amount is subject to change and goes up each year based on same inflation factor. However, New York also has a quirky twist to their estate tax law. As long as your estate value does not go up any higher than 105% of that estate tax exemption threshold, which for 2022 is $6,415,500 ($6.11M X 105%), you only pay New York estate tax on the value of the estate in excess of the 2022 exemption threshold amount of $6.11M.

But, go just $1 over the 105% amount of $6,415,500 to $6,415,501, and the entire value of the estate, including the previously exempt $6.11M, is now all subject to New York estate tax. And kind of like income taxes, New York estate taxes are calculated on a graduated tax rate schedule that starts at 3.06% on the first taxable dollars of the estate, and goes all the way up to 16.0% that starts once the taxable value of the estate goes over $10.1M. Here's New York state's current estate tax table for 2022 shown below.

So based on this, if someone passed away in 2022 and left the heirs a card valued for estate purposes at say $10M, and there was nothing else in the estate, that entire $10M would be subject to New York estate tax based on the table below, which would end up being $1,067,600 in estate tax due.


NEW YORK ESTATE TAX RATES
Taxable Estate*Base Taxes PaidMarginal RateRate Threshold**
$1 – $500,000$03.06%$1
$500,000 – $1 million$15,3005.0%$500,000
$1 million – $1.5 million$40,3005.5%$1 million
$1.5 million – $2.1 million$67,8006.5%$1.5 million
$2.1 million – $2.6 million$106,8008.0%$2.1 million
$2.6 million – $3.1 million$146,8008.8%$2.6 million
$3.1 million – $3.6 million$190,8009.6%$3.1 million
$3.6 million – $4.1 million$238,80010.4%$3.6 million
$4.1 million – $5.1 million$290,80011.2%$4.1 million
$5.1 million – $6.1 million$402,80012.0%$5.1 million
$6.1 million – $7.1 million$522,80012.8%$6.1 million
$7.1 million – $8.1 million$650,80013.6%$7.1 million
$8.1 million – $9.1 million$786,80014.4%$8.1 million
$9.1 million – $10.1 million$930,80015.2%$9.1 million
Over $10.1 million$1.082 million16%$10.1 million

That help?

Yes. But as I read this thread there is one scenario that has not been brought up but is very realistic. Medicaid! I wonder if you can put a card collection in an irrevocable trust? If you are unfortunate to have you or your spouse end up in a nursing home for any length of time, Medicaid will force the remaining spouse to spend down all your assets to about $80k. If your by yourself and you try to pass it down in a will you would be subject to Medicaid recovery. At $14k/month … you get the picture.


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[BobC]

Originally Posted by clamendo

Yes. But as I read this thread there is one scenario that has not been brought up but is very realistic. Medicaid! I wonder if you can put a card collection in an irrevocable trust? If you are unfortunate to have you or your spouse end up in a nursing home for any length of time, Medicaid will force the remaining spouse to spend down all your assets to about $80k. If your by yourself and you try to pass it down in a will you would be subject to Medicaid recovery. At $14k/month … you get the picture.


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Wow Carl, that is a whole different topic, and not actually tax related. If you really want, start a new thread in the watercooler section so we don't keep hijacking Jeff's thread. Quick answer though is there is a definite look back period, 5 years I believe. So if you made the transfer/gift more than 5 years before needing to apply for Medicaid to take over paying the bills, they can't touch you and come after the gift/transfer. That is why a lot of people with significant assets, and some dubious medical history or prognosis, often plan ahead and as they are getting older and proactively put all their assets into an irrevocable trust to get the clock ticking on that Medicaid lookback period.

Doing so though is considered a potential gift to the ultimate beneficiaries of the irrevocable trust. So depending on what you gift and how much it is currently valued at, and how many beneficiaries there are, you may have to file a federal gift tax return, and could end up having some gift tax implications and liability as well.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by BobC

Wow Carl, that is a whole different topic, and not actually tax related. If you really want, start a new thread in the watercooler section so we don't keep hijacking Jeff's thread. Quick answer though is there is a definite look back period, 5 years I believe. So if you made the transfer/gift more than 5 years before needing to apply for Medicaid to take over paying the bills, they can't touch you and come after the gift/transfer. That is why a lot of people with significant assets, and some dubious medical history or prognosis, often plan ahead and as they are getting older and proactively put all their assets into an irrevocable trust to get the clock ticking on that Medicaid lookback period.

Doing so though is considered a potential gift to the ultimate beneficiaries of the irrevocable trust. So depending on what you gift and how much it is currently valued at, and how many beneficiaries there are, you may have to file a federal gift tax return, and could end up having some gift tax implications and liability as well.

Well Since he is talking about an 80K Mantle Card All Good

[BobC]

Actually need to correct some of what I said in post #181 a little bit. No one actually comes after you to get the money/property back if it has been improperly spent or you gifted some of it away during the five year period before you file for Medicaid. Instead, what the Medicaid people normally do is figure out how much you spent/gifted and divide that total amount by the average daily/monthly amount it would cost to have someone cared for in a nursing home or like facility. That way they then figure out how many days/months of care what you gave/gifted away would cover, and delay the start of your Medicaid coverage by that same period of time. So you and your family basically have to somehow cover your nursing and all other costs till that time is made up. And then Medicaid will take over and start to pay for things.

Sorry for not explaining it as clearly before.

[oldjudge]

Bob—If you had a client auctioning off a card like that and he lived in a state with onerous capital gains taxes, would you recommend that he plan ahead and spend 6+ months as a resident of a state with no capital gains before he sold the card? Seems like he could save a ton of money even if he rented a palace for that period.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Bob—If you had a client auctioning off a card like that and he lived in a state with onerous capital gains taxes, would you recommend that he plan ahead and spend 6+ months as a resident of a state with no capital gains before he sold the card? Seems like he could save a ton of money even if he rented a palace for that period.

Absolutely. Had a client company a few years ago owned by two brothers-in-law and a couple others, who sold a majority interest in it to a New York investment firm that infused more money to do acquisitions, leaving the current owners in charge. The plan was to build the business' EBITDA up even further, and then resell everything to an even bigger buyer in a 5 - 7 year period, at an even bigger multiple (of EBITDA) than they had bought it for.

I also did the personnel taxes for the brother-in-laws, and one of them had a Summer home in Florida, in addition to his regular home here in the Cleveland, Ohio suburbs, where the company was headquartered. We talked about him changing his legal residence from Ohio to Florida, and I gave him a list of things to do about a year or two before they expected the New York firm to pull the trigger on the resale of the business. After the New York investment firm took over, they took the original business from $80M in gross sales yearly to just over $500M a year in about 5 years, and then found a buyer. The one brother-in-law who I helped change his residence to Florida ended up with a LTCG from the subsequent sale of a little over $15M. Ohio has a top individual income tax rate of about 5%. Florida has no income taxes, state or local, whatsoever. So simply having my old client change the mailing address on where his mail and bank statements get sent, getting a driver's license from Florida instead of Ohio, having the company put his Florida address in his checks, having him start filing as a Florida resident on his personal tax returns a year before the sale, and a few other fairly simple things, and we figured he ended up saving approximately $750,000 in state taxes.

LTCG from the sale of a business, or LTCG from the sale of a baseball card, same result and tax savings by changing one's residence to a state with no income taxes. And the brother-in-law still kept and stayed at his Ohio residence as well. Just made sure he stayed there in Ohio less than half the year the year of the sale, which was easy as he traveled and worked outside the office mostly anyway.

Here's a list of the US states, and the current top tax bracket in each one. Those with a 0.00% tax rate have no individual state taxes, and would be the perfect candidates for doing something like you're suggesting. But moving from a high taxing state, like California or Oregon, to a much lesser taxing state, would pose a similar tax savings as well.


Alaska 0.00%
Florida 0.00%
Nevada 0.00%
New Hampshire 0.00%
South Dakota 0.00%
Tennessee 0.00%
Texas 0.00%
Washington 0.00%
Wyoming 0.00%
North Dakota 2.90%
Pennsylvania 3.07%
Indiana 3.23%
Michigan 4.25%
Colorado 4.55%
Ohio 4.80%
Utah 4.95%
Illinois 4.96%
Alabama 5.00%
Kentucky 5.00%
Massachusetts 5.00%
Mississippi 5.00%
Oklahoma 5.00%
North Carolina 5.25%
Missouri 5.40%
Kansas 5.70%
Georgia 5.75%
Maryland 5.75%
Virginia 5.75%
Arkansas 5.90%
New Mexico 5.90%
Rhode Island 5.99%
Louisiana 6.00%
West Virginia 6.50%
Delaware 6.60%
Nebraska 6.84%
Montana 6.90%
Idaho 6.92%
Connecticut 6.99%
South Carolina 7.00%
Maine 7.15%
Wisconsin 7.65%
Arizona 8.00%
Iowa 8.53%
Vermont 8.75%
New York 8.82%
Minnesota 9.85%
Oregon 9.90%
New Jersey 10.75%
Hawaii 11.00%
California 13.30%

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by BobC

California currently has no estate or inheritance tax.

However, New York state does have an estate tax, but no inheritance tax. For 2022, the minimum threshold to be subject to New York's estate tax is $6.11M. As long as your taxable estate is worth less than this amount, there is no estate tax due New York. This exemption threshold amount is subject to change and goes up each year based on same inflation factor. However, New York also has a quirky twist to their estate tax law. As long as your estate value does not go up any higher than 105% of that estate tax exemption threshold, which for 2022 is $6,415,500 ($6.11M X 105%), you only pay New York estate tax on the value of the estate in excess of the 2022 exemption threshold amount of $6.11M.

But, go just $1 over the 105% amount of $6,415,500 to $6,415,501, and the entire value of the estate, including the previously exempt $6.11M, is now all subject to New York estate tax. And kind of like income taxes, New York estate taxes are calculated on a graduated tax rate schedule that starts at 3.06% on the first taxable dollars of the estate, and goes all the way up to 16.0% that starts once the taxable value of the estate goes over $10.1M. Here's New York state's current estate tax table for 2022 shown below.

So based on this, if someone passed away in 2022 and left the heirs a card valued for estate purposes at say $10M, and there was nothing else in the estate, that entire $10M would be subject to New York estate tax based on the table below, which would end up being $1,067,600 in estate tax due.


NEW YORK ESTATE TAX RATES
Taxable Estate* Base Taxes Paid Marginal Rate Rate Threshold**
$1 – $500,000 $0 3.06% $1
$500,000 – $1 million $15,300 5.0% $500,000
$1 million – $1.5 million $40,300 5.5% $1 million
$1.5 million – $2.1 million $67,800 6.5% $1.5 million
$2.1 million – $2.6 million $106,800 8.0% $2.1 million
$2.6 million – $3.1 million $146,800 8.8% $2.6 million
$3.1 million – $3.6 million $190,800 9.6% $3.1 million
$3.6 million – $4.1 million $238,800 10.4% $3.6 million
$4.1 million – $5.1 million $290,800 11.2% $4.1 million
$5.1 million – $6.1 million $402,800 12.0% $5.1 million
$6.1 million – $7.1 million $522,800 12.8% $6.1 million
$7.1 million – $8.1 million $650,800 13.6% $7.1 million
$8.1 million – $9.1 million $786,800 14.4% $8.1 million
$9.1 million – $10.1 million $930,800 15.2% $9.1 million
Over $10.1 million $1.082 million 16% $10.1 million

That help?

I know all this is good information and helpful

But for me let's get back to the Card and which is better the 9.5 or the 10. Let's see what people think the over under on the 9.5 will be. Let's continue to have members show off their cards. Lets talk about Mantle and share stories

To much Tax talk for me

[chriskim]

I actually enjoy so much BobC's tax talk. I have been learning so much from his posts. I would hire BobC to handle my money if I ever won lottery!

Thank you BobC for sharing your knowledge as always!!!

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by chriskim

I actually enjoy so much BobC's tax talk. I have been learning so much from his posts. I would hire BobC to handle my money if I ever won lottery!

Thank you BobC for sharing your knowledge as always!!!

I agree it is great information and he has a good way of making it simple to understand.

I just want to have fun with the rest of the stuff

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

I agree it is great information and he has a good way of making it simple to understand.

I just want to have fun with the rest of the stuff

What's not fun about a tax liability? I appreciate Bob's input greatly. It is awesome that he takes the time to thoroughly explain things to those of us who are clueless about tax law. It is just too bad we do not have all of his info in one place. If I have not written this before...I am now. Thank you Bob for taking the time out of your day to educate us. I am sure you have more than enough to do during your day.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

I agree it is great information and he has a good way of making it simple to understand.

I just want to have fun with the rest of the stuff

Sorry Jeff,

I was specifically asked a question, and did not mean to hijack your thread. Will try to limit the tax answers.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by BobC

Sorry Jeff,

I was specifically asked a question, and did not mean to hijack your thread. Will try to limit the tax answers.

Do not stop and you did not Hijack it. As I said you are good at giving the information and making it simple for many of us to better understand it.

I appreciate you and the time you put into answering it.

Just wanted to keep it going with the other stuff also.

All good and thanks but again

Do not stop and we all appreciate you

[BobC]

Originally Posted by chriskim

I actually enjoy so much BobC's tax talk. I have been learning so much from his posts. I would hire BobC to handle my money if I ever won lottery!

Thank you BobC for sharing your knowledge as always!!!

LOL

Chris, you are probably in the minority!

[Johnny630]

I enjoy it too. Many Thanks Bob :-). You’re a highly valued member to many, including me.