Everyone's favorite auction house

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Fred

I've used the same method (distilled water and cotton swabs) to wipe a bunch of crud off a 19th century cabinet. I took before and after pictures of the cabinet that show the crud removed from the picture. It was night and day and I really didn't consider it altering because the only thing done was the removal of dirt and grime with distilled water. I have no intention of selling the cabinet, however IF I do, I'll have no problem fully disclosing this (with the before and after pictures and the dirty cotton swabs).

Shame on you Fred. One more infraction like this and you will have to turn in you Old Judge Club membership card and the secret decoder ring.

[Hankphenom]

What, have we turned into a bunch of snowflakes here all of a sudden? A few posters react with skepticism at the idea that someone could have bought a sign in the spring REA auction, wiped it down with a wet pad, put it into a summer auction and cleared a quick ten grand for a few minutes work, and we're a "lynch mob" for expressing that skepticism, even with a little humor, no less, and particularly in light of recent events? I seem to remember catching all kinds of shit for pointing out during the Mastro frenzy and before any charges were brought that no one had offered any solid evidence of fraudulent activity on their part and they had a right to the presumption of innocence until that occurred. Now we're supposed to be silent about our doubts because...well, because of what, exactly? Because Bob and Al are well-liked and well-regarded members? I liked Mark and Doug, so what? The umbrage expressed seems excessive, and frankly, a little suspicious to me. "The poster doth protest too much, methinks!" Bob should be laughing all the way to the bank, what would he care that a few of us are so stupid and ignorant about memorabilia that we couldn't take advantage of this situation like he did? I'd be walking around like the king of the walk--what a smart guy I am!--not refusing to discuss the matter any further. This is no inconsequential episode on a number of points, not the least of which is that the original consignor and REA seem to have left a LOT of money on the table here, a lesson for a number of people, including them, to take heed of if true. A frequent protestation seen in the thread is that everybody knows you can do this, certainly every metal sign collector, this is elementary stuff, Bob just did what everybody does, why would anybody question it? Well, I'd like to put that proposition to the original consignor and also to REA and see what their answer would be. Let's all get off our high horses here, if this isn't a time for heightened scrutiny and skepticism, I don't know what is.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Tough to win a WS when you can count on Clayton to get shelled at least twice.

Oh! It hurts the most because it's true.

Doug "Life long Dodger fan" Goodman

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

What, have we turned into a bunch of snowflakes here all of a sudden? A few posters react with skepticism at the idea that someone could have bought a sign in the spring REA auction, wiped it down with a wet pad, put it into a summer auction and cleared a quick ten grand for a few minutes work, and we're a "lynch mob" for expressing that skepticism, even with a little humor, no less, and particularly in light of recent events? I seem to remember catching all kinds of shit for pointing out during the Mastro frenzy and before any charges were brought that no one had offered any solid evidence of fraudulent activity on their part and they had a right to the presumption of innocence until that occurred. Now we're supposed to be silent about our doubts because...well, because of what, exactly? Because Bob and Al are well-liked and well-regarded members? I liked Mark and Doug, so what? The umbrage expressed seems excessive, and frankly, a little suspicious to me. "The poster doth protest too much, methinks!" Bob should be laughing all the way to the bank, what would he care that a few of us are so stupid and ignorant about memorabilia that we couldn't take advantage of this situation like he did? I'd be walking around like the king of the walk--what a smart guy I am!--not refusing to discuss the matter any further. This is no inconsequential episode on a number of points, not the least of which is that the original consignor and REA seem to have left a LOT of money on the table here, a lesson for a number of people, including them, to take heed of if true. A frequent protestation seen in the thread is that everybody knows you can do this, certainly every metal sign collector, this is elementary stuff, Bob just did what everybody does, why would anybody question it? Well, I'd like to put that proposition to the original consignor and also to REA and see what their answer would be. Let's all get off our high horses here, if this isn't a time for heightened scrutiny and skepticism, I don't know what is.

Dang Hank, tell us how you really feel.... Yup, if there was/is a time to have a lot of skepticism about the hobby, that time would be now. I've all but stopped collecting a lot of things because of the state this hobby is in. Sadly, many of us love it too much to quit cold turkey, however I'm sure it's been crossing more people's minds lately.

[doug.goodman]

I just saw this thread in the last hour or so for the first time.

Having read through it, my main thought is :

Too bad the OP didn't notice these issues more than a couple hours before the close of the auction.


If he had, maybe before there were too many bids on the items (I haven't checked how many bids either item received), MAYBE the auction house would have pulled the items, and maybe that would have been best.

But, as others mentioned, if I were a bidder (I was not for either item), I would have preferred the method that the AH took of contacting each bidder and giving them the opportunity to withdraw their bid(s).

At this point, it seems to me that there are no victims in what happened, only willing participants, so it seems like moving on is the best course of action.

As to comparisons to other situations, don't get me started, we all know I have a potty mouth.

Doug "hugs and kisses to all" Goodman

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Fred

Dang Hank, tell us how you really feel.... Yup, if there was/is a time to have a lot of skepticism about the hobby, that time would be now. I've all but stopped collecting a lot of things because of the state this hobby is in. Sadly, many of us love it too much to quit cold turkey, however I'm sure it's been crossing more people's minds lately.

I love the stuff and what it means to me as much as ever, and I love the hobby of collecting it. I'm also much too old to hold anything back, not that I ever did that even in my younger days. When card grading took over big time 20 years ago and I saw the effect it had on that part of the hobby, I thought it was ridiculous and decided even more to stick to memorabilia. Slabbing is ugly, and the anal compulsion of grade chasing akin to the tulip frenzy in Holland, in my opinion. Why would you ever need a card that would grade higher than a four when you can't see the difference with your naked eyes? To each his own, I don't care what others choose to do as long as you leave me alone to do my thing, but when it comes to this stuff, as Yogi would say: "Count me out!"

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Oh please David. Spare me the self-righteousness, really. It's an admittedly stupid song parody like a hundred others Frank and I have done.

Spare me the patronizing. Wasn't referring to your parody. It's a fine parody. This thread was started by an ankle-biting hobby nobody with a bitch on for LOTG. Al made a judgement call on an ambiguous matter and everybody wants to roast his ass. Maybe you think this thread is all in good fun but I think it is disrespectful to an honest hard-working guy.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Kawika

Spare me the patronizing. Wasn't referring to your parody. It's a fine parody. This thread was started by an ankle-biting hobby nobody with a bitch on for LOTG. Al made a judgement call on an ambiguous matter and everybody wants to roast his ass. Maybe you think this thread is all in good fun but I think it is disrespectful to an honest hard-working guy.

WOW cool, so are you one of those very important MoFo's? I ask because I am a hobby nobody myself and would love to hear how important you are to the hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kawika

Spare me the patronizing. Wasn't referring to your parody. It's a fine parody. This thread was started by an ankle-biting hobby nobody with a bitch on for LOTG. Al made a judgement call on an ambiguous matter and everybody wants to roast his ass. Maybe you think this thread is all in good fun but I think it is disrespectful to an honest hard-working guy.

If you weren't referring to my parody why did you quote my post about it in your "gas on the fire" comment? Look at post 142 it seemed to me it was exactly what you were referencing. Anyhow no disrespect at all intended on my end, just a respectful disagreement with how Al responded to a particular issue. For at least the third time, I feel he should have stuck to his self-announced strict policy of not selling altered cards and not tried to finesse it. People can disagree without it being disrespectful.

[Jim VB]

Leon,

I haven’t posted on the main board here in over 9 years. Threads like this, and members like the OP are the reason why.

A guy who has continued to support and do business with a proven hobby fraud (PWCC), has decided to repeatedly attack an auctioneer that almost everyone here knows to be honest.

He admits that he doesn’t know the guy he is attacking. He admits he has never done business with him. Yet, on several occasions, he has started threads, or added to threads, in an attempt to show this auctioneer to be dishonest.

If anyone here were to attack the OP’s livelihood, or launch an on-line campaign to impugn the dealership he works for, that would be wrong. But we allow him to do exactly that in regards to LOTG.

Leon, in the past, you used to measure certain members here based on their “shit to equity ratio.” Admittedly, since I haven’t posted in 9+ years, I’ve offered neither shit, nor equity, so take my thoughts for what you will. But at some point, you have to decide which way you want a board to swing. If you ever ask yourself where all the solid, long time hobby guys have gone, and why they don’t post here anymore, think back to guys like the OP, who are here to do nothing constructive but revel in stirring up shit.

See you all in 9-10 more years!


Jim Van Brunt

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

Leon,

I haven’t posted on the main board here in over 9 years. Threads like this, and members like the OP are the reason why.

A guy who has continued to support and do business with a proven hobby fraud (PWCC), has decided to repeatedly attack an auctioneer that almost everyone here knows to be honest.

He admits that he doesn’t know the guy he is attacking. He admits he has never done business with him. Yet, on several occasions, he has started threads, or added to threads, in an attempt to show this auctioneer to be dishonest.

If anyone here were to attack the OP’s livelihood, or launch an on-line campaign to impugn the dealership he works for, that would be wrong. But we allow him to do exactly that in regards to LOTG.

Leon, in the past, you used to measure certain members here based on their “shit to equity ratio.” Admittedly, since I haven’t posted in 9+ years, I’ve offered neither shit, nor equity, so take my thoughts for what you will. But at some point, you have to decide which way you want a board to swing. If you ever ask yourself where all the solid, long time hobby guys have gone, and why they don’t post here anymore, think back to guys like the OP, who are here to do nothing constructive but revel in stirring up shit.

See you all in 9-10 more years!

I agree

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

Leon,

I haven’t posted on the main board here in over 9 years. Threads like this, and members like the OP are the reason why.

A guy who has continued to support and do business with a proven hobby fraud (PWCC), has decided to repeatedly attack an auctioneer that almost everyone here knows to be honest.

He admits that he doesn’t know the guy he is attacking. He admits he has never done business with him. Yet, on several occasions, he has started threads, or added to threads, in an attempt to show this auctioneer to be dishonest.

If anyone here were to attack the OP’s livelihood, or launch an on-line campaign to impugn the dealership he works for, that would be wrong. But we allow him to do exactly that in regards to LOTG.

Leon, in the past, you used to measure certain members here based on their “shit to equity ratio.” Admittedly, since I haven’t posted in 9+ years, I’ve offered neither shit, nor equity, so take my thoughts for what you will. But at some point, you have to decide which way you want a board to swing. If you ever ask yourself where all the solid, long time hobby guys have gone, and why they don’t post here anymore, think back to guys like the OP, who are here to do nothing constructive but revel in stirring up shit.

See you all in 9-10 more years!

Mic drop! Boom!

[pokerplyr80]

I'm almost positive this is the first LOTG thread I've ever started. The others I've commented in were mostly about various mistakes I wouldn't expect from a major AH if I remember correctly. And even in this one I don't believe I called him dishonest. Although I do believe an honest auctioneer should at least follow through on things they pledge to do on their own website. Even if it's only for the first auction or two after the statement is made.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by iowadoc77

Mic drop! Boom!

Yeah, much better we don’t have a free exchange of ideas of opinions. That will
make it a far better website. Lets just have one party line like the old Soviet Union or 1960s Cuba.

[CobbSpikedMe]

While I understand the point that Al's own policy is to pull any altered card from the auction and he didn't, I still don't understand the controversy here. What he did do was make sure everyone involved had a choice to either get out or stay in the game and all but one chose to stay in the game. Nobody was hurt here. Why even start this thread? To point out that LOTG didn't pull the card in question? So what. They disclosed it to everyone and didn't try to hide it in any way. What's the point in trying to hurt his reputation? I just don't get it. The reason so many people are coming to Al's defense is because he is honorable and has earned that reputation over the years. Honesty, this situation is not some big issue that needs to be debated.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Yeah, much better we don’t have a free exchange of ideas of opinions. That will
make it a far better website. Lets just have one party line like the old Soviet Union or 1960s Cuba.

Or CU.

Poppage!!
Nice rip!!

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Yeah, much better we don’t have a free exchange of ideas of opinions. That will
make it a far better website. Lets just have one party line like the old Soviet Union or 1960s Cuba.

Wow. That’s EXACTLY what I meant. Oh wait...

[ullmandds]

Disclaimer...I almost never...ever agree with things the OP posts/says on here...but in this case...I see the point he is making.

Many on here are concerned that nothing is going to change within this hobby in light of all the corruption that has been unveiled.

So when a major player in the hobby makes a statement that he is going to change his auction protocol to do his best to circumvent any issues in future auctions...I...like most would expect that he will actually do this and is not just giving lip service as so often seems to happen in similar situations in this hobby.

As Al said back in june:

Any graded card valued over $500 will be reviewed carefully by LOTG under magnification, along with halogen and long-wave ultraviolet lighting. Should we discover any issues with which we are uncomfortable, the card will be resubmitted to the grading company for review or returned to the consignor at their request.

So while I think in light of what happened, Al handled it as best as could have been given the timeframe...if the above were done in advance of the auction...I do believe there'd be question as to the grade the card was given leading to a delay in auctioning this e95 cobb.

Additionally...if everyone in this hobby who has been found guilty of an indiscretion or two...or 20 in their collecting lives were removed from this forum...this forum would be a ghost town.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Yeah, much better we don’t have a free exchange of ideas of opinions. That will make it a far better website. Lets just have one party line like the old Soviet Union or 1960s Cuba.

+1. Post of the Year candidate!

[drcy]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Disclaimer...I almost never...ever agree with things the OP posts/says on here...but in this case...I see the point he is making.

Many on here are concerned that nothing is going to change within this hobby in light of all the corruption that has been unveiled.

So when a major player in the hobby makes a statement that he is going to change his auction protocol to do his best to circumvent any issues in future auctions...I...like most would expect that he will actually do this and is not just giving lip service as so often seems to happen in similar situations in this hobby.

As Al said back in june:

Any graded card valued over $500 will be reviewed carefully by LOTG under magnification, along with halogen and long-wave ultraviolet lighting. Should we discover any issues with which we are uncomfortable, the card will be resubmitted to the grading company for review or returned to the consignor at their request.

So while I think in light of what happened, Al handled it as best as could have been given the timeframe...if the above were done in advance of the auction...I do believe there'd be question as to the grade the card was given leading to a delay in auctioning this e95 cobb.

Additionally...if everyone in this hobby who has been found guilty of an indiscretion or two...or 20 in their collecting lives were removed from this forum...this forum would be a ghost town.

The OP was off on the sign comparison, but it is true that he had a legitimate point about the card.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

What's with the cotton swabs anyway. I'd be afraid remnants of cotton would adhere to the metal and be hard to get off. I'd opt for an extremely soft rag of some sort.

In event, a simple google search of "how a clean rust off an old metal sign" reveals a plethora of ways to remove rust from an old metal sign. If cotton and water does the trick there's an awful lot of antique folks out there who are wasting time with vinegar and other substances.

Water will remove the loose filth and some of the worst scaly rust as well as some rust stains on the paint. But it doesn't remove the actual corrosion.
Vinegar will remove some of the actually corroded bits. That plus wax or oil will help prevent the rust from getting worse.

[brianp-beme]

To respond to the title of this thread I really like Brockelman Auctions.

brianp(arker)-beme

[wondo]

A²G²

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by bnorth

WOW cool, so are you one of those very important MoFo's? I ask because I am a hobby nobody myself and would love to hear how important you are to the hobby.

Not important, not a MoFo. Also a hobby nobody from way back but not an ankle-biter.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you weren't referring to my parody why did you quote my post about it in your "gas on the fire" comment? Look at post 142 it seemed to me it was exactly what you were referencing. Anyhow no disrespect at all intended on my end, just a respectful disagreement with how Al responded to a particular issue. For at least the third time, I feel he should have stuck to his self-announced strict policy of not selling altered cards and not tried to finesse it. People can disagree without it being disrespectful.

Quit lawyering me if you would be so kind. The lyrics you wrote were a decent attempt at humor but it did nothing to alleviate a noxious thread. This thread is no joke. It undermines Al's livelihood. Nitpicky allegations against his ethics (not saying you have made any such comments) don't make him a better auctioneer, they just give him a headache.

OP - I apologize for the name-calling but you really need to cut Al some slack.

Anyway, I am done in this thread. Got some old-age real life shit going on and am not up to dueling with folks. Just standing up for a friend. Kawika over and out.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

Leon,

I haven’t posted on the main board here in over 9 years. Threads like this, and members like the OP are the reason why.

A guy who has continued to support and do business with a proven hobby fraud (PWCC), has decided to repeatedly attack an auctioneer that almost everyone here knows to be honest.

He admits that he doesn’t know the guy he is attacking. He admits he has never done business with him. Yet, on several occasions, he has started threads, or added to threads, in an attempt to show this auctioneer to be dishonest.

If anyone here were to attack the OP’s livelihood, or launch an on-line campaign to impugn the dealership he works for, that would be wrong. But we allow him to do exactly that in regards to LOTG.

Leon, in the past, you used to measure certain members here based on their “shit to equity ratio.” Admittedly, since I haven’t posted in 9+ years, I’ve offered neither shit, nor equity, so take my thoughts for what you will. But at some point, you have to decide which way you want a board to swing. If you ever ask yourself where all the solid, long time hobby guys have gone, and why they don’t post here anymore, think back to guys like the OP, who are here to do nothing constructive but revel in stirring up shit.

See you all in 9-10 more years!


Jim Van Brunt

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Yeah, much better we don’t have a free exchange of ideas of opinions. That will
make it a far better website. Lets just have one party line like the old Soviet Union or 1960s Cuba.

I don't think anyone has a problem with the free exchange of opinions. Why does it have to descend into personal attacks and name calling? We are all adults here, why can't we all act like adults?

[Leon]

Make it 9 1/2 yrs and we call it even? See ya....

Originally Posted by Jim VB

Leon,

I haven’t posted on the main board here in over 9 years. Threads like this, and members like the OP are the reason why.

A guy who has continued to support and do business with a proven hobby fraud (PWCC), has decided to repeatedly attack an auctioneer that almost everyone here knows to be honest.

He admits that he doesn’t know the guy he is attacking. He admits he has never done business with him. Yet, on several occasions, he has started threads, or added to threads, in an attempt to show this auctioneer to be dishonest.

If anyone here were to attack the OP’s livelihood, or launch an on-line campaign to impugn the dealership he works for, that would be wrong. But we allow him to do exactly that in regards to LOTG.

Leon, in the past, you used to measure certain members here based on their “shit to equity ratio.” Admittedly, since I haven’t posted in 9+ years, I’ve offered neither shit, nor equity, so take my thoughts for what you will. But at some point, you have to decide which way you want a board to swing. If you ever ask yourself where all the solid, long time hobby guys have gone, and why they don’t post here anymore, think back to guys like the OP, who are here to do nothing constructive but revel in stirring up shit.

See you all in 9-10 more years!


Jim Van Brunt

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by Leon

Make it 9 1/2 yrs and we call it even? See ya....

Yeah Jim is the problem...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by the-illini

Yeah Jim is the problem...

What am I supposed to do ban someone for saying something which is relevant to the hobby? Al did absolutely nothing wrong in most people's minds, mine included. As someone above said, it's really a silly debate and at the end of it, it solidifies how good of a job LOTG does by the overwhelmingly positive responses seen.

No one is going to get banned for speaking their mind and following the very few rules we have. Same rules as they have always been. I have learned at least one thing in running the forum, you can't please everyone.

And lastly, if you go into a store and don't like it. You leave and come back 10 yrs later, and tell the manager how to run it, what do you think he would say?

.
.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Or CU.

Poppage!!
Nice rip!!

and the new knee slapper Hot Packs.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Leon

What am I supposed to do ban someone for saying something which is relevant to the hobby? Al did absolutely nothing wrong in most people's minds, mine included. As someone above said, it's really a silly debate and at the end of it, it solidifies how good of a job LOTG does by the overwhelming positive responses seen.

No one is going to get banned for speaking their mind and following the very few rules we have. Same rules as they have always been. I have learned at least one thing in running it, you can't please everyone.

And lastly, if you go into a store and don't like it. You leave and come back 10 yrs later, and tell the manager how to run it, what do you think he would say?

.
.

I agree. Poker Player has every right. He loves Brent Mastro, I would expect nothing less out of the guy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

and the new knee slapper Hot Packs.

I wonder how long I would last on CU.

[BigBeerGut]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

So why do you think it's debatable that an attempt to remove a stain was done deceptively? And why is that even relevant to whether or not you adhere to your own policy?

I haven't accused any one of fraudulent activity, and don't believe there is necessarily anything wrong with some of the outed cards that have simply been cleaned up a little.

But it does seem disingenuous in my opinion to put out a statement saying if you discover a card in your auction has been altered you will pull it immediately, only to leave one that has been up in your next auction.

Jesse:
This stuff can not be stopped. Your wasting your time on all this research just forgot it no one cares about your outings and furthermore you are making no money with it. No one cares. Al emailed all bidder on E95 cobb and 1 guy cancels. Conservation is not coming it is here. You tracking old sales etc just makes you look like a baby. Bid or move on stop being a detective until you can get yourself paid with it. Also: what is your real name? I have never seen a name with @%& characters in it! You comment on Al's auction house and do not post your real name? 3000+ posts ....
Just my 10 cents worth
Everyone complaining about the situation but no leaders emerging to help the cause. Even the key board members just complain and make jokes there
is no change coming.

The Spaeth Guy is right Stuff Trumps All even reconditioned stuff

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Leon

Make it 9 1/2 yrs and we call it even? See ya....

The "Post of the Year" candidates are piling up!

[frankbmd]

I have no gripe with Jesse, Al, Bob or Leon.

All are human and all make mistakes, even Al.

What gets my goat, if you haven’t figured it out, is the angst of the board members created when anyone dares to point out an issue with LOTG.

Until I see authenticated () video evidence I refuse to believe that Al can either walk on water or that he is one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse. (Hi Al)

Everyone in the hobby can improve and no one should be given a free pass.

Open discussion is beneficial. Being a lone dissenting matador in a bull ring with 87 hungry bulls is not.

I wish everyone well, including myself.

[drcy]

I don't agree with the OP on everything, but I don't think he's said anything even close to being bannable. A chat board will have, and should have, a variety of opinions and takes, some unpopular. His comments are about the cleaning of collectibles, which, while many don't agree with his conclusions, are far from out of topic. And, while I disagree with one half of his argument, the other half was a fair point to bring to discussion and one can't logically argue otherwise. (And me disagreeing with an argument is far from reason for me to think someone should be banned or the post not posted). And, in fact, his original post led to a fruitful discussion on the topic of cleaning collectibles.

Though, yes, I can think of things that would be bannable, or 'timeoutable,' probably including someone who constantly starts posts completely off topic threads, repeatedly factually lies about a seller or is a constant temperamental a-hole in the extreme (timeout may suffice there).

I thought one recent poster's arguments on a recent hot topic were terrible and his repeated voicing of them annoying (and some wondered if he had ulterior motives), but it didn't even cross my mind that he should be banned or that he broke any written or unwritten chatboard rules. And I and others rebutted the arguments. It was all part of debate on a chatboard, and it's good for the mind to read opposing arguments. Echo chambers are no good, even (or perhaps especially) when you agree with what is said.

[iowadoc77]

This thread is quickly gathering steam for the "going off the rails on the crazy train" thread of the year

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by steve B

Water will remove the loose filth and some of the worst scaly rust as well as some rust stains on the paint. But it doesn't remove the actual corrosion.
Vinegar will remove some of the actually corroded bits. That plus wax or oil will help prevent the rust from getting worse.

Great information, thank you. And wow, that Reach sign is one gorgeous piece of signage!

[wondo]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I have no gripe with Jesse, Al, Bob or Leon.

All are human and all make mistakes, even Al.

What gets my goat, if you haven’t figured it out, is the angst of the board members created when anyone dares to point out an issue with LOTG.

Until I see authenticated () video evidence I refuse to believe that Al can either walk on water or that he is one of the four horseman of the apocalypse. (Hi Al)

Everyone in the hobby can improve and no one should be given a free pass.

Open discussion is beneficial. Being a lone dissenting matador in a ball ring with 87 hungry bulls is not.

I wish everyone well, including myself.

Holy moly, Frank!

I 100% agree with you - thank you!

[timn1]

As usual I agree with David. Nothing bannable here by a long shot.

The loyalty to LOTG on the part of many members here is easy to understand. We think of it as an oasis we can trust, especially in the current sh$tshow. It doesn't mean we think Al is incapable of making a call (in a difficult situation that probably had no ideal solution) that can be second-guessed. But it means we have a pretty high bar of proof, and we don't like the feeling that those criticizing Al might be acting out of some obscure personal grudge.

Then when we express that opinion, we get called a "lynch mob" and told that we think Al walks on water - that imagery is ridiculous. We are just expressing our views, exactly the same as those who are questioning his decisions. As long as it doesn't get personal (which unfortunately it has in a couple of cases in this thread, on both sides), that is what open discussion involves.

IOW, if you post an iconoclastic opinion here, that's your prerogative and your right - but how can you then complain about being disagreed with? Take it like an adult.

Tim

Originally Posted by drcy

I don't agree with the OP on everything, but I don't think he's said anything even close to being bannable. A chat board will have, and should have, a variety of opinions and takes, some unpopular. His comments are about the cleaning of collectibles, which, while many don't agree with his conclusions, are far from out of topic. And, while I disagree with one half of his argument, the other half was a fair point to bring to discussion and one can't logically argue otherwise. (And me disagreeing with an argument is far from reason for me to think someone should be banned or the post not posted). And, in fact, his original post led to a fruitful discussion on the topic of cleaning collectibles.

Though, yes, I can think of things that would be bannable, or 'timeoutable,' probably including someone who constantly starts posts completely off topic threads, repeatedly factually lies about a seller or is a constant temperamental a-hole in the extreme (timeout may suffice there).

I thought one's recent poster arguments on a recent hot topic were terrible and his repeated voicing of them annoying (and some wondered if he had ulterior motives), but it didn't even cross my mind that he should be banned or that he broke any written or unwritten chatboard rules. And I and others rebutted the arguments. It was all part of debate on a chatboard, and it's good for the mind to read opposing arguments. Echo chambers are no good, even when you agree with what is said.

[Leon]

Have you been in contact with anyone concerning these items in question, who has been banned from our forum, prior to posting the thread?

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I'm almost positive this is the first LOTG thread I've ever started. The others I've commented in were mostly about various mistakes I wouldn't expect from a major AH if I remember correctly. And even in this one I don't believe I called him dishonest. Although I do believe an honest auctioneer should at least follow through on things they pledge to do on their own website. Even if it's only for the first auction or two after the statement is made.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by BigBeerGut

Jesse:
This stuff can not be stopped. Your wasting your time on all this research just forgot it no one cares about your outings and furthermore you are making no money with it. No one cares. Al emailed all bidder on E95 cobb and 1 guy cancels. Conservation is not coming it is here. You tracking old sales etc just makes you look like a baby. Bid or move on stop being a detective until you can get yourself paid with it. Also: what is your real name? I have never seen a name with @%& characters in it! You comment on Al's auction house and do not post your real name? 3000+ posts ....
Just my 10 cents worth
Everyone complaining about the situation but no leaders emerging to help the cause. Even the key board members just complain and make jokes there
is no change coming.

The Spaeth Guy is right Stuff Trumps All even reconditioned stuff

Regarding the portion of the quote in bold...

I think that a lot of people want to do something positive, but aren't sure how to actually fight corruption. I believe many are wanting Law Enforcement to do it's job, make a bold statement, and bring justice to those who've been defrauding us for years.

But to answer your concern more directly, the absolute best way we can stand up to help the cause is to...

A. Stop doing business with known shady dealers (PWCC, HawkDynasty, cccardfactory, LORDSTANLEY2012, etc.) Stop feeding them money and consignments!

B. Stop submitting cards to PSA. The only way they'll ever change is when the money flow lessens. They are failing at their job, and have no plan to fix it. They blame the problem on us (and those who have uncovered this massive fraud). They take zero responsibility, and act like we are at fault by pointing out thousands of indisputable alterations which have garnered numerical grades. They delete posts from their board, which speak the truth, but don't fit with their myopic fan base.

So if we really want to instill change, we must do so with our wallets. That's the one small thing that I am doing. If everyone who cares about the hobby did it, it might not be so small. Stop feeding the corruption... it's the only way to show we have a voice.

Let's focus our efforts towards the real evil, and not legitimize a misguided vendetta against an ethical AH who personally reaches out to every prospective bidder when a last-minute issue arises. PSA's simple response would've been to block the "complainers". I just wish every AH/Dealer/Ebay Seller was half as communicative, honest and forthright as Al.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Leon

Have you been in contact with anyone concerning these items in question, who has been banned from our forum, prior to posting the thread?

I assume you must have a reason for asking this, but I don't feel it's appropriate to publicly comment on private conversations without that person's approval.

I made the decision to create this thread alone. If I violated any rule or policy on this site I will accept any consequence alone.

[jchcollins]

In case anybody is interested, over on the postwar boards there are still a few people who talk about baseball cards.

The prewar section of this board is like a new Stephen King novel for me - I have to put it down for a few days, but I know when I do come back the new chapter, er - thread, is going to be waiting for me, and I’ll have to read the whole thing in one sitting. As disdainful as I find many posts here, on the whole it does make for fascinating reading.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Leon

if you go into a store and don't like it. You leave and come back 10 yrs later, and tell the manager how to run it, what do you think he would say?

.

I'd at least listen to them seriously. *

While the happy customers are great, I liked talking to the unhappy ones as long as I had some ability to handle or fix the situation.

The happy people will rarely tell you what you're doing wrong.

*I personally don't find anything major that I don't like about the board or how it's run. Maybe a few trivial things, but I say if you find two people who claim to never disagree about anything at least one of them is lying.

[2dueces]

You guys sound like a bunch of old ladies criticizing the way kids dress today. Don’t you have any thing better to do with your time beside bitch about grades, pencil marks and dirty signs. The OCD on this forum is strong. Last time I read such stupidity here was the 1000 post bitch session when SGC changed its flip header color. The movie Idocracy moves closer to reality here.

[Hankphenom]

We love you, too, Joe. But let me ask you this: why in the world would I give a shit what you think about anything?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My bigger concern would be if Ryu's magical run is over or if he just had one exceptionally bad outing. He may have set a record this deep into the season for biggest one game ERA increase.

As I was saying. Man, did he ever get shelled again. Another jump of .35 in his ERA. This is unbelievable. In Sparky Lyle's words (and it's irrelevant that he happens to be Asian, not part of the joke), he may go from Cy Young to sayonara at this rate.

[2dueces]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

We love you, too, Joe. But let me ask you this: why in the world would I give a shit what you think about anything?

No reason to care what I think. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

My issue with this card is not the alteration or disclosure posted the last day of the auction. It has more to do with the perception that LOTG can do no wrong, yet they don't even follow their own standards.

The following are quotes from their own website:

"Any graded card valued over $500 will be reviewed carefully by LOTG under magnification, along with halogen and long-wave ultraviolet lighting. Should we discover any issues with which we are uncomfortable, the card will be resubmitted to the grading company for review or returned to the consignor at their request."

"Should any hobbyist discover compelling evidence that a card in our auction has been altered, we will withdraw the card immediately."

Clearly neither of these happened. The E95 was not carefully reviewed, nor was it pulled when the alteration was discovered. Again these are not my standards. These are pledges made by a company claiming to be above all of this.

The following is a quote from the disclosure added to the Cobb:

"While our policy is to withdraw items that are discovered to be altered, in this case we believe the alteration is visible enough that it is debatable whether or not it was done deceptively. "

In my opinion, this reads like they are justifying violating their own policy my making up some new standard that judges the intent of whoever altered this card. If I misread that, please let me know how it's supposed to read.

If none of you have a problem with any of this so be it.

Jesse has a point.