Here we go yet again -- alleged trimmed and recolored CJs at auction

[bnorth]

The few of you who care really need to come around to the modern world. This is a great thing overall. We get these super high end white bordered Ty Cobb cards that didn't exist just a couple decades ago. Restoring cards is a great opportunity to make a LOT of cash with little to no education. The AHs get to make more more because of the higher prices on a PSA 8 that used to be a PSA 5.

As far as knowing the names, LOL seriously. When a longtime card doctor got called out on here for selling another member a altered card nobody said shit. People actually blamed PSA because of who the person was. If that isn't proof nobody cares nothing is.

Have a great day and remember it is all for the greater good of the hobby.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

While those of you who know me know where I stand on all this, and I have dealt - first hand - with altered cards in slabs as an auction. I will say in general on the topic of how many more NM tobacco cards there are now then there were in the 80's, that's a bit misleading.

EVERY collectible dealt with the explosion of availability of what were thought to be unicorns in the advent of ebay and internet sales in general. Things like decanters, glassware like Fenton, and even to a degree things like books, stamps and coins suddenly were easily available. If you had to go to shows, flea markets and garage sales to add to your collection you could go crazy trying to find something that, as it turns out, was just scarce locally for some reason (or no real reason at all) The same goes for cards in general and high grade cards specifically.

I started doing shows when I was 14 and I remember in 1986 buying my first Goudey cards because they were the oldest things I had ever seen. On the local show circuit I honestly don't remember seeing ANY tobacco cards. I know I didn't buy my first T206's until Ebay came along.

Again do I think this explains even the majority of the high grade tobacco? No. But telling me something was scarce in the 1980's and easy to find now doesn't strike me as a great argument.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

While those of you who know me know where I stand on all this, and I have dealt - first hand - with altered cards in slabs as an auction. I will say in general on the topic of how many more NM tobacco cards there are now then there were in the 80's, that's a bit misleading.

EVERY collectible dealt with the explosion of availability of what were thought to be unicorns in the advent of ebay and internet sales in general. Things like decanters, glassware like Fenton, and even to a degree things like books, stamps and coins suddenly were easily available. If you had to go to shows, flea markets and garage sales to add to your collection you could go crazy trying to find something that, as it turns out, was just scarce locally for some reason (or no real reason at all) The same goes for cards in general and high grade cards specifically.

I started doing shows when I was 14 and I remember in 1986 buying my first Goudey cards because they were the oldest things I had ever seen. On the local show circuit I honestly don't remember seeing ANY tobacco cards. I know I didn't buy my first T206's until Ebay came along.

Again do I think this explains even the majority of the high grade tobacco? No. But telling me something was scarce in the 1980's and easy to find now doesn't strike me as a great argument.

I respect your opinion and agree with most of what you said.

Yes, the internet created a centralized location to obtain and find things we were unable to before.

Those other types of items you mentioned, didn't become more common. They just became easier to find. Supply began to outstrip demand.

Demand, always outstripped supply, for high grade tobacco/candy/pre-war cards (particularly baseball). The internet era, while helping availability, also accelerated demand. With this demand, more high grade cards were "created".

When I say Hi-grade cards didn't "exist" in the 80's, I was of course guilty of hyperbole. No, this was not supposed to be an absolute statement.

The idea that there are certainly more (lots more) of them out there (which should be a mathematical impossibility), is not strictly anecdotal. It's backed up by literally 1000's (10's, 100's of 1000's ??), that have been exposed, and residing in TPG holders that show us that this card is more respected and higher graded, and with better eye appeal, then it was just a few short years ago.

I understand absolute statements make collectors who believe they are holding onto legitimate high grade cards from the past bristle, and I'm sorry for that. There are always exceptions to the rule.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by bnorth

The few of you who care really need to come around to the modern world. This is a great thing overall. We get these super high end white bordered Ty Cobb cards that didn't exist just a couple decades ago. Restoring cards is a great opportunity to make a LOT of cash with little to no education. The AHs get to make more more because of the higher prices on a PSA 8 that used to be a PSA 5.

Some people buy old houses, fix them up, and resell them for a tidy profit. It's a win for everyone - someone gets to buy and live in a nice house, property values and aesthetic appeal increase in the neighborhood, tax revenues to the city go up on the higher value basis of the house, lots of tradesmen get paid to do the work, and material suppliers make money selling the stuff that goes into the renovation.

The house may still be marketed as "Early Victorian" or whatever, but it certainly isn't in original condition, and has been significantly altered and cleaned to improve its value.

I own a 1930 Model A Ford. Some people collect them in all original condition, others trick them up a bit. Mine for example is mostly original but has a custom made hardwood floor and some non-original parts. Car collectors can look at it and because of their expertise, they know what they are seeing.

I'm just wondering, having read a thousand or more mostly redundant complaints about card doctors, what is the point any more? Altered cards in this hobby are ubiquitous. Card doctors are apparently facing no adverse consequences. I see no lawsuits despite blowout's many, many examples.

I primarily collect game used flannels. Many otherwise nice shirts are out there with alterations. So, I do my homework, I've learned which AHs to trust and which to be very careful with, and which authenticators are good and which aren't (Dave Grob, incidentally, is hands-down my favorite.)

Rather than endless threads with people wringing their hands in angst over altered cards, at what point will it be universally understood that many many cards have been worked on, and that's simply become a major state of the hobby? If altered cards are a problem for someone, they have 3 choices: Learn how to avoid altered cards (knowing they cannot be sure all the time), stop collecting cards, or decide to live with the card hobby as it exists, and not stress about it.

Frankly, I think autographs are far more suspect than cards. With a vintage autograph, every single time, the first question is: Is it real? Generally there is not a definitive answer. Yet, many people collect autographs, accepting that dynamic. Seems to me, card collectors should likewise understand the same risk applies to cards.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Because the owner of the Victorian House and the Model A that have customizations or work done aren't representing them as all original? It's called fraud.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I'm just wondering, having read a thousand or more mostly redundant complaints about card doctors, what is the point any more? Altered cards in this hobby are ubiquitous. Card doctors are apparently facing no adverse consequences. I see no lawsuits despite blowout's many, many examples.

If there was honesty in the sale of these items, as in, all presented as ALTERED and labeled as such, I wouldn't have an issue. However MAIL FRAUD and WIRE FRAUD bother me. As do the damage done to the thousands of cards worth hundreds of millions of dollars.
Owners PAY PSA, SGC, BGS, and the others hundreds of millions of dollars annually to ACCURATELY identify and label their cards. The fact that those companies (hysterically referred to as Third Party Graders) are incompetent doesn't make it okay.

It would be the same if they changed the VIN, rolled back the odometer, applied bondo to the body, and sold it as a 100% original single owner through Barrett Jackson. Just because everyone seems to be in on the scam doesn't mean it's not a scam.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by swarmee

If there was honesty in the sale of these items, as in, all presented as ALTERED and labeled as such, I wouldn't have an issue. However MAIL FRAUD and WIRE FRAUD bother me. As do the damage done to the thousands of cards worth hundreds of millions of dollars.
Owners PAY PSA, SGC, BGS, and the others hundreds of millions of dollars annually to ACCURATELY identify and label their cards. The fact that those companies (hysterically referred to as Third Party Graders) are incompetent doesn't make it okay.

It would be the same if they changed the VIN, rolled back the odometer, applied bondo to the body, and sold it as a 100% original single owner through Barrett Jackson. Just because everyone seems to be in on the scam doesn't mean it's not a scam.

Fine, I get it. Fraud is a bad thing. Does re-stating that sentiment, which we all agree on, in a new thread every few days accomplish anything?

Let's see some lawsuits. Short of that, let's accept reality and decide, individually or collectively, how to deal with it. Conversations about new, technically advanced authentication is a good example for instance.

If your buddy gets mugged on his way home from work one day, is it productive for him to whine about it constantly? Or would it be best for him to do what he can to help get the mugger locked up, and then figure out how to move on with life.

Look, I totally agree with your post. Already.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Fine, I get it. Fraud is a bad thing. Does re-stating that sentiment, which we all agree on, in a new thread every few days accomplish anything?

Let's see some lawsuits. Short of that, let's accept reality and decide, individually or collectively, how to deal with it. Conversations about new, technically advanced authentication is a good example for instance.

If your buddy gets mugged on his way home from work one day, is it productive for him to whine about it constantly? Or would it be best for him to do what he can to help get the mugger locked up, and then figure out how to move on with life.

Look, I totally agree with your post. Already.

Just shut up and do something about it, is a great way for nothing to ever get done about anything. It's essentially gaslighting.

"Whining", as you put it, is a way of passing on information, keeping it in the public consciousness, letting others know what to avoid who don't know that these Cracker Jacks have been trimmed before they were sent to the TPG's.

Very little of any consequence has ever been done, without a great deal of "whining" and hand-wringing involved.

Imagine if your buddy in the scenario you gave, identified the mugger to the police, had plenty of evidence to back it up and nothing ever got done about it.

Then that mugger kept on robbing your buddy over and over and over again. Identified every time, and nothing is ever done. Short of your buddy going full vigilante, at what point does he shut up and just learn to live with his daily muggings?

At what point do you point your finger at your buddy, tell him to shut his big fat whiny mouth and go "Death Wish", or figure out some way to reform the police force in his locale, and everything systemically wrong with it.............but do it quietly and without disturbing anyone else's sleep, or forum reading habits?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Just shut up and do something about it, is a great way for nothing to ever get done about anything. It's essentially gaslighting.

"Whining", as you put it, is a way of passing on information, keeping it in the public consciousness, letting others know what to avoid who don't know that these Cracker Jacks have been trimmed before they were sent to the TPG's.

Very little of any consequence has ever been done, without a great deal of "whining" and hand-wringing involved.

Imagine if your buddy in the scenario you gave, identified the mugger to the police, had plenty of evidence to back it up and nothing ever got done about it.

Then that mugger kept on robbing your buddy over and over and over again. Identified every time, and nothing is ever done. Short of your buddy going full vigilante, at what point does he shut up and just learn to live with his daily muggings?

At what point do you point your finger at your buddy, tell him to shut his big fat whiny mouth and go "Death Wish", or figure out some way to reform the police force in his locale, and everything systemically wrong with it.............but do it quietly and without disturbing anyone else's sleep, or forum reading habits?

His thoughts and prayers are with the victims...

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

His thoughts and prayers are with the victims...

Doug "recently ordained" Goodman.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Very little of any consequence has ever been done, without a great deal of "whining" and hand-wringing involved.

Imagine if your buddy in the scenario you gave, identified the mugger to the police, had plenty of evidence to back it up and nothing ever got done about it.

Your post is thoughtful and I see your point, but here's the distinction: In your analogy, victims are actually going to law enforcement repeatedly, with hard evidence. This is taking action, and if the police don't take it seriously, then action can be escalated to higher officials within the police or government, or to an attorney. Your example would in my opinion be very productive and appropriate.

All I'm saying, really, is this: If you're buying a house, car, or baseball card, look at it closely to know what you're getting. You can educate yourself to improve your chances of getting what you expect, you can decide not to buy, or you can buy on faith, take your chances and accept the outcome. I don't think this statement is controversial because it's the thought process we all go through.

I will readily admit you make a good point about spreading information; the work being done at blowout is definitely important - they are actually documenting evidence, and I do think spreading the word about their findings on this site has value in the sense that maybe somebody will recognize one or more of their high-end cards and finally decide to put together a legal case. Then, perhaps, this massive fraud might begin to be remedied. So in that, I admit there is some potential value in these types of threads.

But since it is abundantly evident that tens of thousands, maybe millions, of altered cards are out there, dealing with that reality seems to make more sense than just complaining about it ad nauseam. In this chat room, people are just conversing with each other, repeating the opinion that fraud is a bad thing, and being surprised/appalled/outraged anew with each new example.

And now I'll take advice I've given others - I will simply ignore these types of threads in the future. After reading dozens of them I pretty much know how they turn out... with people being even more frustrated than before, and little to nothing improving the situation.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Your post is thoughtful and I see your point, but here's the distinction: In your analogy, victims are actually going to law enforcement repeatedly, with hard evidence. This is taking action, and if the police don't take it seriously, then action can be escalated to higher officials within the police or government, or to an attorney. Your example would in my opinion be very productive and appropriate.

All I'm saying, really, is this: If you're buying a house, car, or baseball card, look at it closely to know what you're getting. You can educate yourself to improve your chances of getting what you expect, you can decide not to buy, or you can buy on faith, take your chances and accept the outcome. I don't think this statement is controversial because it's the thought process we all go through.

I will readily admit you make a good point about spreading information; the work being done at blowout is definitely important - they are actually documenting evidence, and I do think spreading the word about their findings on this site has value in the sense that maybe somebody will recognize one or more of their high-end cards and finally decide to put together a legal case. Then, perhaps, this massive fraud might begin to be remedied. So in that, I admit there is some potential value in these types of threads.

But since it is abundantly evident that tens of thousands, maybe millions, of altered cards are out there, dealing with that reality seems to make more sense than just complaining about it ad nauseam. In this chat room, people are just conversing with each other, repeating the opinion that fraud is a bad thing, and being surprised/appalled/outraged anew with each new example.

And now I'll take advice I've given others - I will simply ignore these types of threads in the future. After reading dozens of them I pretty much know how they turn out... with people being even more frustrated than before, and little to nothing improving the situation.

Fair enough and appreciate your response. We are probably closer together on this then we realize.

Just at slightly different stages of "acceptance".

To be honest. I don't have much of a stake in this. I've done little more then dabble in graded cards, and never sent any cards in myself until the recent avalanche of grading craziness hit, and I'm starting to wonder if I'm ever going to see those few cards again, LOL.

I personally think it's too late to put the bullets back in the chamber for the grading companies. The established ones anyways. I've seen chatter that CSG is returning a lot of cards back to submitters, for various reasons. Valid or not. Maybe they will get the reputation of being more picky........at least where authenticity is concerned. Plenty of people already "whining" about the leniency given at the bottom of their number scale...........which I can only shrug my shoulders at, while the others are letting mass numbers of trimmed cards in at the top of the scale, where all the actual money is.

I have a few cards at their facility right now. I might not get those back anytime soon either.

The others either have to keep putting their head in sand, or start establishing a number scale for altered cards in order to satiate the high-enders. 10A, 9A, 8A, etc......

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Mark17

... Does re-stating that sentiment, which we all agree on, in a new thread every few days accomplish anything?...

Hopefully at some point it will, and until then people like you who are ok with your cards being less than perfect as long as the opinion sellers say they are better can stop reading all those new threads.

Or, you can read those threads, then state your opposite of the thread sentiments, and have people like me re-state my sentiments over and over and over.

Doug "my middle name is Dick" Goodman

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Hopefully at some point it will, and until then people like you who are ok with your cards being less than perfect as long as the opinion sellers say they are better can stop reading all those new threads.

This is silly. Understanding the obvious - that a bunch of cards have been altered - does not equate to condoning it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Man, I've been (justly) accused of a lot of things, but "whining" I don't think has been one of them. Since I start many of these threads, Mark, it would be pretty easy to put me on ignore. Meanwhile, since all I have is a voice but no other power to change things, I'll keep "whining" I guess.

** Not to get too literary or self-aggrandizing about it, but the full quote from Auden is, "All I have is a voice to undo the folded lie." A brilliant line.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Some people buy old houses...

Among the numerous issues I have with your post, although on a very minimal level I kind of get the point, nobody has ever bought a house that was certified to be in "brand new move in condition" only to walk in and find that the wall to the living room had been sliced off, without complaining about it.

Doug "can't think of a fitting witty nickname" Goodman