Some of the mysteries and myths surrounding the most famous card in the hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Now this would be a plot twist. I have never seen an actually high quality image of the card.

If the old rumors of the original plates/stones reprint operation should be true, an image probably would not be telling and the card would need to be cracked out for proper examination, which it might pass even then. If the Wagner was worth enough to do this in the fifties, I would think those plates/stones would have been kept. This operation seems unlikely, too perfect to be true, a kind of old wives tale for hobbyists that floats around in every little world and never really checks out but constructed to be almost impossible to disprove. I would not assume the card is authentic though, and suspect that eventually our hobby will be ruined by correct ink and correct stock reprints.

Fake or not, this testimony would seem to confirm Sevchuks story has not really changed on the origin. Which does not make it true, but it is testimony from a key primary source with direct knowledge, which is better than nothing. I am eager to see this research that this was a lie and the card was discovered in NY.

It would be interesting to know the source of the claim that Alan Ray refused to divulge where he got the card. It's out there now on a couple of sites but without attribution. I mean, who would have asked him other than Sevchuk? I don't think it was Bill because unless I have this wrong, Bill did not deal directly with Ray, only through Sevchuk.

[toppcat]

I knew Sevchuk and was a regular in his Hicksville store for years but never knew about the Wagner. He had a partner at one point called Marty Perry, who might know something. Bob was a genius at ferreting out amazing stuff-he also paid a 10% finder's fee, which likely helped a lot in that regard.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It would be interesting to know the source of the claim that Alan Ray refused to divulge where he got the card. It's out there now on a couple of sites but without attribution. I mean, who would have asked him other than Sevchuk? I don't think it was Bill because unless I have this wrong, Bill did not deal directly with Ray, only through Sevchuk.

I think it may be a slight misstatement. It seems Ray refused to publicly state where he got the card (which seems confirmable, he never has), which doesn’t mean much one way or another (it could be for any number of reasons, wanting to keep a source private, not seeking publicity to his father, or something as grand as not wanting to steer attention to a reprinting operation or by giving a lie that might be proven false later). That he did this doesn’t mean he didn’t or wouldn’t have told his dealer partner on the piece. On its face, it’s not an oddity. His business partner is in the know on the details, more than what is said in public. That’s normal. Of course, people in general have little relationship to honesty whatsoever, and tend to say whatever they think is beneficial to themselves in a particular moment without regard for truth. Many seem to struggle to separate their narrative from actual truth and come to conflate the two as the same exact thing. It’s not a lot of evidence, just one testimony. That testimony makes sense, Wagners have been found in odder places than a 1980’s flea market, it is internally consistent, and it doesn’t contradict anything we know to be true. Any extant research would be immensely valuable in evaluating if this seems the likeliest case or not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Well, it isn't Rashomon, but it's interesting what we can and cannot reconstruct of this.