Old Cardboard and Legendary

[Rich Klein]

My impressions:

1) Another solid Old Cardboard magazine; like usual.

2) Is Legendary back on stride as an auction house.
Reading their catalog whilst eating lunch today, it did appear that this was the strongest non-live Legendary auction.

Also looking at the last items in their catalog; it appears that instead of running a seperate "collector" auction; they have folded in the collector auction with the $100 minimums to their regular auctions.

Editorial Note: I DO NOT have any items in the Legendary auction.

Regards
Rich

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

2) Is Legendary back on stride as an auction house.
Reading their catalog whilst eating lunch today, it did appear that this was the strongest non-line Legendary auction.

As was noted earlier, it seems they got in one or two old-time collections where the consignor probably wasn't aware of the ongoing issues when they consigned. I don't think this latest auction is any indication that they're "back on stride."

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Matt

As was noted earlier, it seems they got in one or two old-time collections where the consignor probably wasn't aware of the ongoing issues when they consigned. I don't think this latest auction is any indication that they're "back on stride."

I do. I got the catalog yesterday and my thoughts were along the lines of "obviously the consignors aren't worried about Legendary". This is a really impressive auction...especially for early Cubs memorabilia collectors.

On a side note the empty Topps/Bowman/fleer boxes minimum bids are a bit shocking to me as I remember these types of items used to be just lotted up in the big auctions.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I do. I got the catalog yesterday and my thoughts were along the lines of "obviously the consignors aren't worried about Legendary". This is a really impressive auction...especially for early Cubs memorabilia collectors.

It would appear that the great bulk if not all of the early Cub stuff is owned by Doug and/or Mastro employees. Of course that leaves open the question as to whether or not these consignors are worried about Legendary.

[alanu]

Did Mastro ever get all caught up with their consignors? Not trying to stir things up, just don't know the latest.

[bijoem]

It is a pretty impressive auction. Lots of cool stuff.


Although I could be mistaken -
I believe the people I know who consigned to Mastro eventually did get paid.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by calvindog

It would appear that the great bulk if not all of the early Cub stuff is owned by Doug and/or Mastro employees. Of course that leaves open the question as to whether or not these consignors are worried about Legendary.

I figured the Cubs stuff was probably from one collector, but what makes it "appear" to be all from Mastro employees?

[Matt]

There is a disclosure on page 7 of the Mastro-owned lots - too many to type in here.

Lots 590-685 are ALL Mastro owned.

[calvindog]

I don't have the catalog in front of me but I recall that the list of items owned by Mastro insiders included most if not all of the early Cub stuff.

Edited to add: Matt nailed it.

[Leon]

One of their principals has been a Cubs collector for a long time...

Only time will tell how Legendary will do. All 3 executives have a lot of experience and a lot of networking in the hobby....

[barrysloate]

Doug has been a big Cubs collector for a long time so I don't think I am revealing any big secret here.

It is a good auction but I am surprised at how low the T208's are. Remember a common sold in the live July auction for $20,400. Most of them are currently $500 or less as of today. Sure they will have a lot of activity the last night, but the 20K price was clearly an aberration.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

It is a good auction but I am surprised at how low the T208's are. Remember a common sold in the live July auction for $20,400. Most of them are currently $500 or less as of today. Sure they will have a lot of activity the last night, but the 20K price was clearly an aberration.

I'm not sure it was an aberration; it seems to me that it may just be reflective of the supply/demand at the time vs now. If they had listed only 1 now, it might get close to those heights as well. Or, it might have been an aberration...

[barrysloate]

No doubt the supply has drastically changed the perception. The one in July was the first one offered in about five years. Now between Legendary and REA we have 33 on the block. And we will almost certainly never see this kind of supply again.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Matt

As was noted earlier, it seems they got in one or two old-time collections where the consignor probably wasn't aware of the ongoing issues when they consigned. I don't think this latest auction is any indication that they're "back on stride."

Did "Mastro" ever get around to paying their consignors? I haven't noticed any updates lately.

[tedzan]

For whatever it is worth....here are my 2 Drachmas regarding Legendary......

My booth at the Valley Forge Philly Show is adjacent to Legendary's booth. I have known Ron Oser since 1981.
I have known Mark Theotikis since the late '80s. These 2 guys are fine people. After all is said and done, over
the years in this hobby, it's the human element that matters more than any piece (or collection) of cardboard.

I was really impressed back in March with Legendary's tremendous T205/T206 DRUM find (51 cards). As I star-
ted setting up at the Sept. Philly Show, Ron Oser called over to me to check-out their latest find.

I replied...."Ah, come on Ron, you can't top your DRUM find ?"

Ron responded...."You want to bet on it, Ted ?"

I suspended my set-up and looked over Legendary's table....and, I was blown away when I saw their T208 set.
As a grown-up, I have been in this hobby since the 1970's and I have never seen a complete 18-card Cullivan's
Fireside set.

How about it guys, let's give Legendary a chance. Certainly, their latest Auction material looks pretty darn good.


TED Z

[calvindog]

Ted, I've got three trials coming up in the next 8 months; the question is how do I get you on all of them.

[e107collector]

What is the link to the Old Cardboard auction? I was on the Old Cardboard site, and can't seem to find a link to their auction?

Thanks,
Tony

[sox1903wschamp]

Is there an auction house called "old cardboard"? I guess I am confused. Maybe it is a reference to the "old cardboard" in the Legendary auction?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Matt

There is a disclosure on page 7 of the Mastro-owned lots - too many to type in here.

Lots 590-685 are ALL Mastro owned.

Allegedly...for all we know...

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by sox1903wschamp

Is there an auction house called "old cardboard"? I guess I am confused. Maybe it is a reference to the "old cardboard" in the Legendary auction?

Points #1 and #2 are NOT connected.

Old Cardboard is a magazine, and judging by Rich's post, I'd guess he got his in the mail today.

Legendary is the auction house.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Matt

There is a disclosure on page 7 of the Mastro-owned lots - too many to type in here.

Lots 590-685 are ALL Mastro owned.

Heh. Who reads the fine print?

[calvindog]

Is it true that Bill Goodwin is taking an internship at Legendary?

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Is it true that Bill Goodwin is taking an internship at Legendary?

Your bidding privileges have been revoked. Please contact us to have them reinstated.

[dstudeba]

Originally Posted by Matt

As was noted earlier, it seems they got in one or two old-time collections where the consignor probably wasn't aware of the ongoing issues when they consigned. I don't think this latest auction is any indication that they're "back on stride."

The old time collector was your conjecture if I recall correctly and not a general consensus. I believe that many of the high quality cards come from a person who is up to date on the goings on in the hobby including the Mastro problem.

However I could be wrong.

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

Points #1 and #2 are NOT connected.

Old Cardboard is a magazine, and judging by Rich's post, I'd guess he got his in the mail today.

Legendary is the auction house.

Ahh yes, the magazine. And a fine magazine it is. Thanks for setting me straight Jim.

[tedzan]

Per your request........
" Ted, I've got three trials coming up in the next 8 months; the question is how do I get you on all of them. "

......it will cost you, buddy. Travel expenses from Pennsy to NYC and a Hal Chase of my choice for each day.

Damn, I'd be proud to be in your courtroom. However, if I'm as effective in influencing your case(s) as you are
alluding to here....then you are going to have to up the ante....to a Cobb each day. .


T-Rex TED

[Matt]

Originally Posted by dstudeba

The old time collector was your conjecture if I recall correctly and not a general consensus. I believe that many of the high quality cards come from a person who is up to date on the goings on in the hobby including the Mastro problem.

However I could be wrong.

I suppose it doesn't matter for the greater point; the key is that most of the quality material is either from Mastro employees or this one particular collector who apparently doesn't care about all the issues consignors have had. I don't think that is sustainable to the point where we can say they are back.

[Rich Klein]

Even if you had to put some of your "own" material into the auction; showing that you can get the Lou Brock collection (right after the Bob Gibson collection) and the Bill Hoffer collection (that made their debut at the National auction) then there is certainly some forward momentum.

And since perception may be reality; I do think there is a chance that Mastro/Legendary HAD to do something to generate money in April and that the switch was not handled as well as it should have been. And, I don't know this for a fact, but I'd wager if you chatted with Doug Allen privately; he'd tell you the same point.

My only point is that this catalog was a whole lot better than their April catalog AND seemed to have more items of interest and once you get the "stuff" again, you get more "stuff". How many times on this board (and it's not just Mastro/Legendary) that we moan about an auction house (example Ryan C. vs SCP) and then in the last SCP auction, man there were several threads about what people bid on and how happy they were to win the lots.

Regards
Rich

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Even if you had to put some of your "own" material into the auction; showing that you can get the Lou Brock collection (right after the Bob Gibson collection) and the Bill Hoffer collection (that made their debut at the National auction) then there is certainly some forward momentum.

And since perception may be reality; I do think there is a chance that Mastro/Legendary HAD to do something to generate money in April and that the switch was not handled as well as it should have been. And, I don't know this for a fact, but I'd wager if you chatted with Doug Allen privately; he'd tell you the same point.

My only point is that this catalog was a whole lot better than their April catalog AND seemed to have more items of interest and once you get the "stuff" again, you get more "stuff". How many times on this board (and it's not just Mastro) that we moan about an auction house (example Ryan C. vs SCP) and then in the last SCP auction, man there were several threads about what people bid on and how happy they were to win the lots.

Regards
Rich

"Stuff" trumps everything. Always has in this hobby and always will. After all is said and done there is very little reason for these auction houses to change their ways if people still bid.

[JamesGallo]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

"Stuff" trumps everything. Always has in this hobby and always will. After all is said and done there is very little reason for these auction houses to change their ways if people still bid.

Dan,

I have to disagree with you on this. At least for me personally my own principles and beliefs trump everything. There is one auction house I just won't deal with after I got burned twice with them. I don't care if they have the cards of my dreams I will not bid.

I very well may be in the minority with this line of thought but for me I go with my gut and feelings. Stuff will always be there but my own self respect I never want to lose.

James G

[canjond]

Interesting article on the game used forum about the Frank Chance uniform in the current auction...

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_f...ad.php?t=30867

According to some forum members, seems that not everything is what it appears.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by canjond

Interesting article on the game used forum about the Frank Chance uniform in the current auction...

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_f...ad.php?t=30867

According to some forum members, seems that not everything is what it appears.

Yikes. What was the earlier question? Are they back in stride?

[Leon]

That was some fun reading.....kind of like a snowball effect.

[canjond]

Originally Posted by Matt

Yikes. What was the earlier question? Are they back in stride?

Agreed - I found the article alarming, especially the adendum appearing after Bushing's public response.

[bmarlowe1]

>>[re the Chance game worn jersey]...This begs the question, where does one get a 1911 bear logo?.....

Geez - and I thought their labeling of a 1910 Cubs team photo as 1908 was a big deal.

[HRBAKER]

I'm beyond amazed. And Matt I owe you an e-mail.

[Wesley]

That is a great expose by Rudy from the game used forum about the Chance jersey.

[Rich Klein]

In the Frank Chance uniform lot

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...100&category=1

Regards
Rich

[Exhibitman]

I don't know jacksquat about uniforms but if that is accurate, Legendary is indeed hitting a stride--Mastro's stride...You almost have to admire the stones it takes to do that in the wake of the FBI investigations...

[calvindog]

Adam, you beat me to it. Yes, Mastro/Legendary is definitely hitting its Michael Jordan shooting shirt---woops I mean Ranzino Smith---stride again.

[bmarlowe1]

Maybe it's just me - it seems that Legendary has messed up 2 nice and very scarce historical items - the Chance jersey that happened to lose it's cubby bear some time in the past, and Pfiester's jersey that had remained intact for almost 100 years until they took it apart.

[calvindog]

Have no fear, though: the Chance jersey is owned by Doug and it has a reserve known only to those honest folks at Mastro. What could possibly go wrong?

[Jewish-collector]

I've known Ron Oser since the early 1980's. I used to shoot the breeze with him when he was a dealer in the back of the smaller room at the Columbia (Maryland) Hilton show.

They are back !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVS3WNt7yRU

[Wanzies1278]

Hope this isn't repetitive, but here is Dave Grob's post at Mears regarding the Chance jersey:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/42715...ndary+Auctions

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Wanzies1278

Hope this isn't repetitive, but here is Dave Grob's post at Mears regarding the Chance jersey:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/42715...ndary+Auctions

actually it was Dave Bushing's thoughts posted for him by Grob.....

[ctownboy]

bmarlowe1,

That is EXACTLY the same thought I had after reading about this mess. Devaluing (in my mind ruining) a perfectly good Pfeister jersey for the sake of artificially inflating the value of a jersey that is already valuable on its own merits.

They could have just as easily had a replica "C" made up and attached it to the Chance jersey and then made it be known publicly that is what they did. No lying, no deceit and no chance for a public PR mess. That would have also given the new owner the opportunity to take the "C" off the jersey if, for whatever reason, they didn't like it and could do so without any thoughts of harming the value of the jersey.

David

[Wanzies1278]

Oops. Thanks for correcting my error.

[ctownboy]

My question to everyone is this;

Now that it is known that the "C" originally came from the Pfeister jersey and that Doug Allen personally oversaw and paid for the removal of it, can the person who bought the Pfeister jersey do anything about this? I mean, can they somehow claim damages because the jersey was original when it went to the auction house but was tampered with while at the auction house and thus had its value diminshed?

Also, WHO owned the Pfeister jersey? Was it Doug Allen or another Mastro employee? If not, then don't you think the owner would be a little upset to know their original jersey was messed with so that ANOTHER jersey could have its value artificially inflated?

David

[canjond]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

My question to everyone is this;

Now that it is known that the "C" originally came from the Pfeister jersey and that Doug Allen personally oversaw and paid for the removal of it, can the person who bought the Pfeister jersey do anything about this? I mean, can they somehow claim damages because the jersey was original when it went to the auction house but was tampered with while at the auction house and thus had its value diminshed?

Also, WHO owned the Pfeister jersey? Was it Doug Allen or another Mastro employee? If not, then don't you think the owner would be a little upset to know their original jersey was messed with so that ANOTHER jersey could have its value artificially inflated?

David

Just to claify - the "C" on the Chance jersey is original. The little cub in the middle of the "C" was missing on the Chance jersey. The little cub was then added to the Chance.

[ctownboy]

Canjond,

Thanks for correcting my error. I should have gone back and read the postings again before I commented.

But my questions still stand, who owned the Pfeister jersey before the little cub was removed, wouldn't they be upset to find out it was removed (thus devaluing the piece) and wouldn't the new owner be upset to find the original cub had been removed and a repro added just to artificially enhance another jersey's value?

Finally, was the removal of the original cub and the application of the repro cub noted in the description when the Pfeister jersey was auctioned? Seems to me if it wasn't then it should have been.

David