T206 fronts/backs Extravaganza......show us what you have ?

[Texxxx]

Thanks Chris
Several commons to go. Just waiting for the right ones to come alone for the right price. The hardest one to get a hold of will be Leon's Red Cross. Well the most expensive at least.

[atx840]

The OM is also surprisingly tough...4k!

Old Mill

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Texxxx

Thanks Chris
Several commons to go. Just waiting for the right ones to come alone for the right price. The hardest one to get a hold of will be Leon's Red Cross. Well the most expensive at least.

Bruce

Chris is exactly correct regarding the OLD MILL back.......the McGraw (glove) is in the group of 460-only series cards that I refer to as the "Exclusive 12". While these
12 subjects are quite available with tougher backs such as AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, SOVEREIGN 460 and even the red HINDU, they are virtually impossible to find with
OLD MILL.


TED Z

[Texxxx]

I know the OM will be hard. I was under bidder on the one above. But I know there are two of them so another one may pop up. The Cycle will be hard also.
If it was easy it wouldn't be any fun.

[tedzan]

You can really go "bananas" and have fun at the same time with these backs.....here's a real challenge.....try for what I refer to as the QUINTUPLICATE subset.

The blue Chase is my all-time favorite T206 image and I have been searching for many years for the DRUM card of Chase to complete this Quintuplucate sub-set.
For all I know, this Chase card may have never been printed with a DRUM back.....and, I've been on a "wild goose" chase for 33 years.


........v




TED Z

[atx840]

We need to team up Ted!

[Sean]

Ted, I'm curious. The Blue Chase was printed in all three Coupon sets. Is that because he is a Super Print group. Are there others that appear in all three sets ( Cobb Red, Chance, Evers,etc.)?

[RCMcKenzie]

Sean, all 6 super-prints are found in Coupon series 1, 2, and 3. There are around 22 or 23 cards that appear in all 3 series. I have a list in my notes that I need to look up.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by atx840

We need to team up Ted!

Chris


Nice red HINDU....I could use that one. It appears that these are missing in your picture........................






..




And, this beauty of a reprint




Keep in touch guy,


TED Z

[atx840]

I'm missing those and many others you have Ted! One day...one day.

[wonkaticket]

[barrysloate]

Come on John, you can do better than that. We want to see something good!

[wonkaticket]

Sorry Barry I'll try harder next time.

[barrysloate]

Okay, slight improvement.

[z28jd]

Wonka, you need a Willis card that is a step between the two you have, would fit nice in there

[atx840]

Nice Johnson RH John!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

This is an Extraordinary Extravaganza of a display of T206's.....and they are certainly worth repeating.

It's just what this thread was intended to convey......Thanks for sharing your cards with us.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Which T206 back is your favorite ?

I tend to favor the AMERICAN BEAUTY backs......and especially, the AB 460 series.



TED Z
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
LOOKING for these 6 - T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (75 cards)

AMES (hands over head)....CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)
McQUILLAN (bat)....TINKER (bat off shoulder)

[E93]

John,
You are making us look bad.
JimB

[Sean]

Since every other back has been posted, including Coupon, Red Cross and Victory, here's one more. Not a T206, but the same front, so sort of a "cousin". Definitely my favorite:

scan0008.jpg

[Sean]

By the way Ted, in what year were the Victorys distributed?

[atx840]

Beauty Sean, wish this one was a T215.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Sean

By the way Ted, in what year were the Victorys distributed?

Some say 1914....other sources say 1915. The year of the T214 cards is not certain.

For example, Hal Chase batted .347 in 75 games for Buffalo (Federal League) in 1914.
In 1915, he batted .291 in 145 games, and led the League with 17 HR's.





TED Z

[Sean]

Thanks Ted.

And Chris, what is that Pirate that you posted?

[tedzan]

Throwing in these 4 rare T206's....just to stir up a little bit of late night controversy.

OK, OK....are the 1910 COUPON cards T206's....or what ?

I certainly think so....how about you ? ?






..

..



And for laughs, I'll throw in a rare 1915 COUPON Silent Screen star card.





TED Z

[ullmandds]

I LIKE T213's!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Throwing in these 4 rare T206's....just to stir up a little bit of late night controversy.

OK, OK....are the 1910 COUPON cards T206's....or what ?

I certainly think so....how about you ? ?





TED Z

I don't think so. Had Burdick wanted them with T206 he would have put them there. Unlike some other mistakes it seems he made, he was intentional in putting Coupons (all of them) as T213. If we want to use the ACC then Coupons are T213, if not, then make them whatever you want them to be. It's not that big of a deal, except they are what they are, T213.

[RCMcKenzie]

To Ted Z's T206 question...Burdick did an amazing job cataloging all the cards. I would group all T206 into subsets by their backs. All Polar Bear cards, all Carolina Brights, all Piedmont fact 42 etc. To me T213-1 is just a sub-category of T206. Even T213-2 and 3 are t206 fronts with very small blue font differences.

[DeanH3]

I'm on the side of the T213-1's being a subset of T206. I know it's a little self serving since I have one, but to me there are more reasons for it being included than not.

[tedzan]

Dean

Join the club....the timeline and the logic favors our opinion regarding the 1910 COUPON cards as part of the T206 family.


Best regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

To Ted Z's T206 question...Burdick did an amazing job cataloging all the cards. I would group all T206 into subsets by their backs. All Polar Bear cards, all Carolina Brights, all Piedmont fact 42 etc. To me T213-1 is just a sub-category of T206. Even T213-2 and 3 are t206 fronts with very small blue font differences.

Rob

I like the way you think (regarding the 1910 COUPON cards).

So, what is your thinking regarding the 1910-1912 RED CROSS (T215-1) cards with respect to their T206 "cousins" ?









TED Z

[Texxxx]

I maybe in a class of my own but I have always felt that the T213 and T215 type 1's where part of the T206 set. I think the type 2 & 3's where after the T206 was finished. I know they used the same picture plates but that is seen with lots of other sets also.

[Sean]

Ted, here's another question: Is there a difference between the 1910 Red Cross and the 1912 Red Cross?

Can you please post a scan of each back?

[Texxxx]

The backs are the same. The type 1 has brown lettering on front like the t206 and the type 2 had blue lettering.

[RCMcKenzie]

Some cards appear in both series like this Ford. Other cards are only found in one or the other. Type 1 approx 1910-1912 Type 2 approx 1912-1913. It says 100 designs on the back, but the actual number of cards per series is short of that and unknown.

Ted, I have followed your prior threads on the topic and have learned a lot from those discussions. I would group t213-1 and t215-1 alongside the other t206's as you and others have said.

Edit to add- Chris pointed out that the grass background is all dark green on the type 2 Ford, I don't know if all type 2 Fords are printed that way or if this example is just printed differently.

[cfc1909]

Rob

if you study the print groups in t206 and apply that knowledge to the t213-1 set and the t215-1 set you will be able to realize Burdick got these correct and they are not part of the t206 set although the same fronts are used.

[RCMcKenzie]

Hi, Jim,

I tried to word my answer above carefully, as I respect both you and TedZ for y'alls experience with T206.

I, personally, would classify T213 "alongside" or "as a sub-set" to T206, and I'm not saying it should be renamed a T206. Lipset pointed out that in addition to having the same fronts as T206, T213-1 has the same captions without any team changes (I'm taking Lipset's word as I can't recall any).

T213-1 are made up of cards from "Print Group 2" "Super Prints" and "Southern League". The backs have an almost identical design to 3 other T206 backs.

I am not part of the debate over the nomenclature, and do not see a reason to rename the cards, but think that it is an interesting debate.

[tedzan]

Deleted

[tedzan]

Hey Rob

Contrary to what some on this forum say, Jeff Burdick mis-classified this T213-1 issue. FACT....his records show that he lumped in the 1910 COUPON cards with the T213-2 &
T213-3 issues with respect to their timeline (1914-1919). However, we now know that this set was indeed issued circa 1910. So, I don't really fault him for getting it wrong.

There are several indicators that confirm the 1910 issue date. It is obvious that the stylistic back design of these COUPON cards was drawn by the same artist that designed
the AB-BL-CY-DRUM backs. And, we have American Lithographic records that inform us of the Spring/Summer timeline of the T206 cards with these advertising backs.




Furthermore.....American Lithographic (ALC) used their printing plates during the 350 series press runs to print the 48 Major Leaguer's in the T213-1 set (see NOTE below).
Additionally, ALC selected from the 48 Southern Leaguers (SL), the 20 Southern Association SL to include in the T213-1 set consistent with COUPON's regional distribution.


NOTE....The six super-prints were initially 350-only subjects. When ALC started printing their 66 subjects in the SOVEREIGN "350/460" series they included the Chance, both
Chase's, Cobb, Evers, and Matty in this group.

Scot Reader very appropriately described the six super-prints as unique T206's in that they are "350-only & 460-only" subjects.


Rob....good buddy....your observation is correct, the 1910 COUPON cards are T206's. So, don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Six T206 Super-Prints with 1910 COUPON backs





.....

..





TED Z

[tedzan]

A variety of Matty's










TED Z

[CMIZ5290]

Oh Ted...I want the Matty Sov. 460! Up for a trade?

[tedzan]

Hey Kevin

I acquired the Sovereign 460 Matty 7 years ago; and, I've only seen one other one since then.

Anyhow, this Matty is part of my all-Sovereign set, so it's not for sale.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Three examples of the various AMERICAN BEAUTY backs............


.








TED Z

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
LOOKING for these 6 - T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (75 cards)

AMES (hands over head)....CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)
McQUILLAN (bat)....TINKER (bat off shoulder)

[cfc1909]

during the distribution of the t206 set there were 6 different print groups. Once a print group was done or discontinued and the next one began the previous one was not brought back or printed again.

The southern league 48 cards or print group 6 was discontinued in December 1909. The Coupon t213-1 was issued after December 1909. This fact makes Burdick correct that the Coupon t213-1 needed is own ACC designation separate from t206.

For some time now the mysteries of the t206 set have been tried to be answered by examining the backs. This does answer many questions but not all. Take the time to examine the fronts and understand the print groups and that will give a more compete understanding of the 206 set.

I am sure there will always be more to learn about the set

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

during the distribution of the t206 set there were 6 different print groups. Once a print group was done or discontinued and the next one began the previous one was not
brought back or printed again.

The southern league 48 cards or print group 6 was discontinued in December 1909. The Coupon t213-1 was issued after December 1909. This fact makes Burdick correct
that the Coupon t213-1 needed is own ACC designation separate from t206.

For some time now the mysteries of the t206 set have been tried to be answered by examining the backs. This does answer many questions but not all. Take the time to
examine the fronts and understand the print groups and that will give a more compete understanding of the 206 set.

I am sure there will always be more to learn about the set

Whoa......pre-printed sheets of FRONTS were NOT...."discontinued and the next one began the previous one was not brought back or printed again."

These sheets were subsequently re-used to create the T213 series of sets, T214 set, and the T215 sets.

The printing plates of the 20 subjects in the Southern Association were used circa Spring/Summer 1910 to print the 1910 COUPON set's Southern Leaguers.

It is a known fact that Burdick "blew" the classifying of this set because his records indicate that his timeline 1914-1919 for the T213-1 set was obviously
INCORRECT.



The significance of the study of the various T206 backs has provided us valuable insight and timelines to when certain T-brands were printed and issued.
Illustrated here is my A-B-C-D connection (issued circa Summer 1910**). Note the stylistic design of the "COUPON" back is virtually identical to the other
4 designs.





Another breakthrough in understanding the T206 set occurred in 2007 here on Net54 when Art Martineau had observed a distinct difference in the color of certain
SOVEREIGN 350 backs. I had just completed my all-SOVEREIGN set of 402 cards in 2007. From this complete set we identified that 66 of the cards were printed in
"apple green" ink.

SOVEREIGN "apple green" backs vs "forest green" backs. These 66 cards identify the subsequent 350/460 Series subjects in the T206 set.

Forest green
column............v v................................ Apple Green array ...............................v






Studying the the various T206 backs led to my theory of the BROAD LEAF 460
and red HINDU backs of the 350/460 series having been printed simultaneously.




Further studying of the various T206 backs led to my theory of AMERICAN BEAUTY 460
and UZIT backs of the 350/460 series having been printed simultaneously.

Furthermore, regarding the 350/460 cards the matched BROAD LEAF 460 and red HINDU subjects
are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE with respect to the matched AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and UZIT subjects.






AND......I have examined the FRONTS....which resulted in my theory regarding the "EXCLUSIVE 12" subjects in the 460-Only series.



A T206 phenomena that T206 resource was apparently ignorant of.


However, I will agree that...."I am sure there will always be more to learn about the set".


NOTE **......This 1910 date was gleaned from American Lithographic's ledger records.



TED Z

[RCMcKenzie]

Every card that has a type one Coupon back can be found with a Piedmont 350 back.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by atx840

Nice Ted.

Chris where is your BROWN OLD MILL??

[atx840]

Dan, I sold it on eBay a few months ago.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Every card that has a type one Coupon back can be found with a Piedmont 350 back.

Rob

Excluding the 6 super-prints (which of course were essentially printed with every possible T206 back).....are you aware that 39 of the 42 - Major Leaguer's
in the 1910 COUPON set were not printed with the POLAR BEAR backs ?

So, of what significaance is this....twofold............

(1)....Many of these Major Leaguer's career's ended, or they were in transition due to trades prior to the initial POLAR BEAR press runs (circa Summer 1910).

(2)....More importantly, it sets a timeline when this COUPON set was printed. The earliest POLAR BEAR press run is circa Summer of 1910. Therefore, it's fair
to conclude that the T213-1 cards were printed and issued prior to that date. My guess would be circa Spring or early Summer 1910.

NOTE......the 3 guys that were printed with the POLAR BEAR backs are......

Clyde Engle (NY AL) ......traded to Boston AL on May 10, 1910
Frank LaPorte (NY AL)
Ed Willett (Detroit)



TED Z