Some of the mysteries and myths surrounding the most famous card in the hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I would not call The Card terribly reliable - O’Keeffe seems to believe whatever his interview subjects said and done little genuine inquiry. I do believe he accurately reported what people said to him, but it is hardly a good book objectively.

I do think this hearsay, from people at least connected to the origin as I recall it, does obviously beat a single memory of an unknown person saying something else at a show once to someone. That’s a lower level of hearsay.

The whole point of asking for evidence is that I cannot find much actual material to go on, just a lot of myths, conflicting stories, and accounts with little to back them. I don’t have any opinion on where it originated. This is why I was asking for the “research”. There is a lot that could be learned from a partial T206 sheet, if one ever existed (yes, I am aware sheets existed when they were printed in 1909-1911, before someone steps in to correct me with the blindingly obvious).

Maybe Ted can fill in the gaps, his story has the advantage over the others of being contemporaneous with the event. But at this point I don't think we have much of a clue. It is interesting how at least two stories, although likely feeding off the same source, say Ray refused to say where he got the card. That makes no sense if Ray had already told Sevchuk the card had come from Ray's father.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The other thing that I've pointed out many times, if it was cut from a sheet in the 1980s, or for that matter the 1950s. who cares if it was cut a second time? And if someone cares why?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe Ted can fill in the gaps, his story has the advantage over the others of being contemporaneous with the event. But at this point I don't think we have much of a clue. It is interesting how at least two stories, although likely feeding off the same source, say Ray refused to say where he got the card. That makes no sense if Ray had already told Sevchuk the card had come from Ray's father.

Sevchuk played a significant role in the actual event, any reasonable criteria would consider his testimony more significant than a memory of an unknown person saying something different at a show. I’ve heard things in gossip at shows, those things aren’t really evidence of anything. I hope there is research to clarify this other origin story. Sevchuk may be lying, or misremembering, or O’Keeffee misinterpreted, but it is at least on the record testimony from a significant participant. That’s not a big barrier to clear, but it’s something more than gossip.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Sevchuk played a significant role in the actual event, any reasonable criteria would consider his testimony more significant than a memory of an unknown person saying something different at a show. I’ve heard things in gossip at shows, those things aren’t really evidence of anything. I hope there is research to clarify this other origin story. Sevchuk may be lying, or misremembering, or O’Keeffee misinterpreted, but it is at least on the record testimony from a significant participant. That’s not a big barrier to clear, but it’s something more than gossip.

I know someone who may have some insight, let me check.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

Sevchuk played a significant role in the actual event, any reasonable criteria would consider his testimony more significant than a memory of an unknown person saying something different at a show. I’ve heard things in gossip at shows, those things aren’t really evidence of anything. I hope there is research to clarify this other origin story. Sevchuk may be lying, or misremembering, or O’Keeffee misinterpreted, but it is at least on the record testimony from a significant participant. That’s not a big barrier to clear, but it’s something more than gossip.

Exactly the purpose of this thread, it's not a knock on peoples recollection from shows or in a book it's about what we've learned from the cards themselves and if the Wagner (and Plank) came from a normal production sheet that was cut up in the 80's where are the other examples that would have been on that sheet. And if Wagner and Plank were on a sheet together why are their back numbers so lopsided?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Exactly the purpose of this thread, it's not a knock on peoples recollection from shows or in a book it's about what we've learned from the cards themselves and if the Wagner (and Plank) came from a normal production sheet that was cut up in the 80's where are the other examples that would have been on that sheet. And if Wagner and Plank were on a sheet together why are their back numbers so lopsided?

My only strong opinion is that it does not matter whose theory ends up right or wrong, it would be immensely valuable if we could accumulate the pieces of evidence and simply follow that evidence. It is not an insult to anyone to ask for evidence they say they have to support X conclusion. Some things I thought probable have turned out right, and some wrong. We make the best guesses we can with what is available at that moment, and we should always separate those best guesses from actually known fact to avoid confusion.

I have never seen compelling evidence there was a full sheet, or that Plank was on that same sheet. I think that it seems very unlikely that Plank and Wagner were on the same sheets in production. I don't know if Sevchuk is right and this sheet (though I suspect what people really mean is a partial sheet or even just a strip, and the sheet verbiage is an imprecise terminology being used) was real and did originate in Florida, but so far that seems to be the only real testimony we have. I'd love to see any research countering or supporting it. If the Plank originated from this find, I would suspect we are talking about multiple strips, not a single sheet. But that is just present probabilities and could change if the evidence available is added to.

Out of the uncut material related to the American Tobacco Co. card project of 1909-1912, none of it is the small-size cards we now consider to be 'standard' tobacco. This possible T206 sheet would be immensely valuable to other sets as well if anything could be positively ascertained about it.

[Snowman]

Smells like a reprint to me

[benjulmag]

Here’s what I can add to this discussion.

I knew Bob Sevchuk. He was one of the dealers I did business with. I remember soon after I bought a 1939 Playball set from him he called to tell me he would be receiving from Florida a NrMt-Mt Wagner, and would I be interested in purchasing it. One year prior I had purchased the Wagner I own now, a nice copy that I grade ex-ex+. I told Bob that if in fact he had a NrMt-Mt copy coming, which would be an upgrade on the one I had, I would be interested. He told me to wait until he received the card so he could confirm it was in that condition. When it arrived he called to say he received the card and it really was NrMt-Mt. I asked him the provenance of the card as, to put it mildly, I was astonished that a Wagner in that condition would turn up, especially from Florida. The response I got was vague, saying it came from Florida, with little additional detail. I don’t recall whether he mentioned it came from a flea market, but it is possible he did. I told him I wanted to see it, but that I wanted to bring someone with me to opine whether the card was real. I told him I would get back to him in a few days. Next thing I heard was that he had sold it to Mastro and it was the talk of the Willow Grove show, a show I attended. One rumor floating around was that it was the oversized Wagner sold by Lipset a few years earlier (that currently resides at the HOF) cut down.

As has been noted, a significant number of Wagners originate from Long Island, including most of the high grade copies. Mine came from an old-time hobby veteran, who was from Long Island. The notion of the sheet originating from a flea market in Florida and the cards being in the condition they are, pristine white borders with vivid colors, uncreased and having no reported condition issues, always struck me as remarkable. That said, many New Yorkers do spend their winters in Florida, and amazing things have been known to turn up at flea markets.

What does this all mean? I don’t know. But, I have always been intrigued by the allegation (which was discussed at length in a thread on this Board many years ago) that in the 1950’s T206 reprints were made from the original printing plates, and were assembled in combinations different from how they were assembled in 1909.

In mentioning this I want to stress that I am not saying the card is not genuine. I remember when REA sold the Plank years ago looking at it under a loupe to see if I could discern any differences in the dot matrix pattern. I could not, so at least to a person who claims no expertise in examining dot matrix patterns, it passed that visual test. But there are things about it that are extraordinary, and to me, a person extremely focused on provenance and a believer that counterfeiting is more prevalent and more of a risk than most collectors realize, I do not possess the same degree of confidence in its genuineness that I possess with other Wagners, and I do not believe a forensic examination of its physical components would be an unwarranted exercise.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If it's a twice cut sheet cut reprint, then OMG.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Here’s what I can add to this discussion.

I knew Bob Sevchuk. He was one of the dealers I did business with. I remember soon after I bought a 1939 Playball set from him he called to tell me he would be receiving from Florida a NrMt-Mt Wagner, and would I be interested in purchasing it. One year prior I had purchased the Wagner I own now, a nice copy that I grade ex-ex+. I told Bob that if in fact he had NrMt-Mt copy coming, which would be an upgrade on the one I had, I would be interested. He told me to wait until he received the card so he could confirm it was in that condition. When it arrived he called to say he received the card and it really was NrMt-Mt. I asked him the provenance of the card as, to put it mildly, I was astonished that a Wagner in that condition would turn up, especially from Florida. The response I got was vague, saying it came from Florida, with little additional detail. I don’t recall whether he mentioned it came from a flea market, but it is possible he did. I told him I wanted to see it, but that I wanted to bring someone with me to opine whether the card was real. I told him I would get back to him in a few days. Next thing I heard was that he had sold it to Mastro and it was the talk of the Willow Grove show, a show I attended. One rumor floating around was that it was the oversized Wagner sold by Lipset a few years earlier (that currently resides at the HOF) cut down.

As has been noted, a significant number of Wagners originate from Long Island, including most of the high grade copies. Mine came from an old-time hobby veteran, who was from Long Island. The notion of the sheet originating from a flea market in Florida and the cards being in the condition they are, pristine white borders with vivid colors, uncreased and having no reported condition issues, always struck me as remarkable. That said, many New Yorkers do spend their winters in Florida, and amazing things have been known to turn up at flea markets.

What does this all mean? I don’t know. But, I have always been intrigued by the allegation (which was discussed at length in a thread on this Board many years ago) that in the 1950’s T206 reprints were made from the original printing plates, and were assembled in combinations different from how they were assembled in 1909.

In mentioning this I want to stress that I am not saying the card is not genuine. I remember when REA sold the Plank years ago looking at it under a loupe to see if I could discern any differences in the dot matrix pattern. I could not, so it least to a person who claims no expertise in examining dot matrix patterns, it passed that visual test. But there are things about it that are extraordinary, and to me, a person extremely focused on provenance and a believer that counterfeiting is more prevalent and more of a risk than most collectors realize, I do not possess the same degree of confidence in its genuineness that I possess with other Wagners, and I do not believe a forensic examination of its physical components would be an unwarranted exercise.

Thanks for the response Corey. It's not the same as having it in hand but I've seen large enough scans of the Plank and I don't see anything to indicate that it's not genuine. I've never seen a really good scan of the Wagner, I did see it up close at the Atlantic City National in 2003 but I had only been collecting T206's for a couple of years and didn't know much about them at the time.