Here we go yet again -- alleged trimmed and recolored CJs at auction

[D. Bergin]

I think it's only a matter of time before the skill that goes in "restoring" these cards, becomes an actual selling point in the resale market.

Too many high dollar collectors have waaaaaaaay too many of these cards in their collections for it to go any other way.

I mean, if we can sell NFT's to the general public..........why not "card art and restoration"?

"I turned my 5 into a 10", will be flouted openly among "market traders".......and likely sooner then most people think.

[Johnny630]

We are at a Point Where People Spending Big Money on these Cards in Auctions DO NOT CARE HOW MUCH WORK HAS BEEN DONE ON THE CARD AS LONG AS IT'S IN A PSA OR SGC HOLDER WITH A NUMERICAL GRADE, THAT"S ALL THAT MATTERS.

SADLY ZERO IS GOING TO CHANGE, OTHER THEN RECORD HIGH SALES.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I think it's only a matter of time before the skill that goes in "restoring" these cards, becomes an actual selling point in the resale market.

Too many high dollar collectors have waaaaaaaay too many of these cards in their collections for it to go any other way.

I mean, if we can sell NFT's to the general public..........why not "card art and restoration"?

"I turned my 5 into a 10", will be flouted openly among "market traders".......and likely sooner then most people think.

Pretty good hypothesis, and definitely a possibility. Not much difference between a virtual image and an enhanced one.

I suppose if it really goes that route, the TPGs will pretty much be rendered as useless and obsolete. The grade of "A" will be the same as "10". And in many cases, it already is!

[Tripredacus]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I think it's only a matter of time before the skill that goes in "restoring" these cards, becomes an actual selling point in the resale market.

I think it is already in existence. I do not remember if it was posted here or a different forum, but there are groups on facebook where card fixers get together to share advice on how to restore cards. Maybe it was here. I don't know if these groups go as far as being considered buyers clubs, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised. Especially if the grading companies continue to accept the restored cards and people are making money off of it.

But there will always be purists in cards that do not believe that anything should be altered or restored. Same as with anything. Such as for years we are always hearing about the purists of baseball hating on this rule or that rule or players flipping bats or celebrating. It is just part of life.

[Touch'EmAll]

We are at a crossroads in this hobby - stop buying the high end nice stuff, or go ahead buy it and beware. I am having trouble wanting to buy the lower than "EX 5" stuff as that has always been my bottom line, but then the higher stuff could be doctored, ugh. And with todays ultra high prices, do I dare go after higher stuff anyway? Do I just keep what I have in vintage sports, call it good, and dabble in 1977 Star Wars cards and new Pokemon and the like for the rest of my collecting life?

And then I am hearing about buyers opening boxes in the mail from sellers and claiming nothing inside - or so they say, and demanding refunds. ebay always sides with the buyer. Makes me scared to even sell stuff anymore.

[Johnny630]

At this Point the grading companies serve one purpose, to facilitate a higher sale...end of discussion that's all that matters.

[Casey2296]

I like my CJ's "dirty", 100+ year old cards just don't look right when graded a 9.
-

[bbnut]

Originally Posted by Tripredacus

But there will always be purists in cards that do not believe that anything should be altered or restored. Same as with anything. Such as for years we are always hearing about the purists of baseball hating on this rule or that rule or players flipping bats or celebrating. It is just part of life.

I remember when purists used to think that autographs on cards lowered values on the cards and PSA 10 might be only double the raw price. Doesn't seem that way anymore.

Things will change and evolve.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tripredacus

I think it is already in existence. I do not remember if it was posted here or a different forum, but there are groups on facebook where card fixers get together to share advice on how to restore cards. Maybe it was here. I don't know if these groups go as far as being considered buyers clubs, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised. Especially if the grading companies continue to accept the restored cards and people are making money off of it.

But there will always be purists in cards that do not believe that anything should be altered or restored. Same as with anything. Such as for years we are always hearing about the purists of baseball hating on this rule or that rule or players flipping bats or celebrating. It is just part of life.

It has nothing to do with purity. It has everything to do with fraud and nondisclosure. If it's so acceptable, why doesn't anyone disclose it? QED.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It has nothing to do with purity. It has everything to do with fraud and nondisclosure. If it's so acceptable, why doesn't anyone disclose it? QED.

Peter its systemic nothing is ever going to change

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Peter its systemic nothing is ever going to change

Right, nobody is going to come out and say I trimmed this card or removed creases or added color, which to me proves that all the talk about how it's acceptable in the hobby now is a crock.

If it was so acceptable there would be no need for deception.

[Tripredacus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Right, nobody is going to come out and say I trimmed this card or removed creases or added color, which to me proves that all the talk about how it's acceptable in the hobby now is a crock.

If it was so acceptable there would be no need for deception.

Do you think that soaking also falls into this category? There are many posts on this forum about soaking, or how to safely remove a card that is in a scrapbook or glued to something.

Is there a difference in whether or not a person is doing these things with the intention of selling it later?

[Johnny630]

I know nobody Cares But another CJ Joe Jackson was discovered on Blowout the other day from a 4 SGC to a 7 SGC...


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1460488

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Tripredacus

Do you think that soaking also falls into this category? There are many posts on this forum about soaking, or how to safely remove a card that is in a scrapbook or glued to something.

Is there a difference in whether or not a person is doing these things with the intention of selling it later?

Soaking is a somewhat contentious issue.
Given time, most old scrapbooks will damage the cards.

My wife and I are currently working on soaking a scrapbook of tradecards. A hobby where at least the pricing is similar to where baseball cards were 40 years ago. The pages made the cards brittle, and some have taken pretty serious damage.

There's always a fine line between preservation/conservation and altering.

That's also true in other hobbies.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tripredacus

Do you think that soaking also falls into this category? There are many posts on this forum about soaking, or how to safely remove a card that is in a scrapbook or glued to something.

Is there a difference in whether or not a person is doing these things with the intention of selling it later?

Soaking is part of a long hobby tradition, and is the only way vast amounts of material stuck in scrapbooks could have been made available. And to the best of my knowledge it typically causes no harm.

[perezfan]

"Peter its systemic nothing is ever going to change"


Then why even have grading? If an A is the same thing as a 10 (and it's deemed ok to transform any card into a 10), then where is the need for a TPG?

And why is the valuation of a card graded "10" any higher than the one graded "A"?

That logic would dictate that the prices realized should be about the same for each.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

"Peter its systemic nothing is ever going to change"


Then why even have grading? If an A is the same thing as a 10 (and it's deemed ok to transform any card into a 10), then where is the need for a TPG?

And why is the valuation of a card graded "10" any higher than the one graded "A"?

That logic would dictate that the prices realized should be about the same for each.

Sadly the only purpose TPA have is to make your cards worth more not to determine if your card is altered or not. It's their opinion that matter's when bringing the most money to cards, it's just the way it is, nothing is going to change.

[Misunderestimated]

One of the ones in the BODA thread is that someone tinkered with a $100,000K PSA 8 CJ Joe Jackson !!! and got an SGC 9/96 out of it.... What a tragedy (and what nerve).... I wonder if he cracked it... sharpened it and then resubmitted to PSA (without payoff) before settling for the SGC 96/9 (and a mere $26K profit)
The guy must have the steady hands of a Mohel* to even try this.


* The man who performs circumcisions in Jewish tradition.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

One of the ones in the BODA thread is that someone tinkered with a $100,000K PSA 8 CJ Joe Jackson !!! and got an SGC 9/96 out of it.... What a tragedy (and what nerve).... I wonder if he cracked it... sharpened it and then resubmitted to PSA (without payoff) before settling for the SGC 96/9 (and a mere $26K profit)
The guy must have the steady hands of a Mohel* to even try this.


* The man who performs circumcisions in Jewish tradition.

So will 'brissing' a card become a thing? They could put 'brissed' on the label. Would it be possible to attend a brit milah for cards?

[Tao_Moko]

Obvious nobody involved cares. These are not passable trim jobs. I've spent the last year buying higher end cards in lower grades because authentic/unaltered 5 or 6's are going to become the premium if this continues. No evidence to suggest that any end is near. FAT BORDERS or BUST!

[frankrizzo29]

My gut feel is that the new NFTs are going to ultimately replace cards, i.e new cards will not be released anymore, but NFTs will be released instead. This will ultimately mean no more new cards to trim, and it will greatly diminish the need for TPGs in the future. Unfortunately, we still have to deal with trimmed cards from the past.

I'm a vintage person, and I personally do not buy any card graded higher than a 4 or a 5. My rationale is really basic.....What was the highest graded Cobb in the Lucky 7 find? These cards supposedly were purchased and than stored in a bag all these years untouched, and the highest grade I believe was a 4.5. So I personally find it hard to believe that any card graded higher than a 5 or so from back than wasn't doctored to some degree.

[doug.goodman]

I love this stuff, too bad that the back up at the opinion sellers is so long. Did one of them double their rates to cut down on submissions? Good for them, same money for half the work, I need to double my own salary in my next tour budget.

Hahahaha, you graded guys all deserve what you get.

The opinion sellers are laughing at you all on their way to the bank.

Doug "correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the first paid opinion wrong?" Goodman

[Pack The Ripper]

Originally Posted by frankrizzo29

My gut feel is that the new NFTs are going to ultimately replace cards, i.e new cards will not be released anymore, but NFTs will be released instead. This will ultimately mean no more new cards to trim, and it will greatly diminish the need for TPGs in the future. Unfortunately, we still have to deal with trimmed cards from the past.

I'm a vintage person, and I personally do not buy any card graded higher than a 4 or a 5. My rationale is really basic.....What was the highest graded Cobb in the Lucky 7 find? These cards supposedly were purchased and than stored in a bag all these years untouched, and the highest grade I believe was a 4.5. So I personally find it hard to believe that any card graded higher than a 5 or so from back than wasn't doctored to some degree.

Your post is spot on. I always try to buy the best card of whatever I'm buying. Seems that the best cards are probably just raw.

I just find it incredible that a supposed professional grading company could, in this day and age, receive ANY prewar card with super sharp corners for grading and not immediately suspect trimming.