2024 National Table Space

[bcbgcbrcb]

Does anyone have a booth at the 2024 National in Cleveland that would be willing to offer enough space for me to display either one or two showcases?

Please send me a PM if this might be a possibility for you.

Thanks

[Exhibitman]

That's a big no-no under the new regime.

[Johnny630]

Happens all the time just keep it on the DL cash talks.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

That's a big no-no under the new regime.

Why is sharing a booth not allowed?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Why is sharing a booth not allowed?

One of many good reasons is they are not paying the promoter for that spot.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by bnorth

One of many good reasons is they are not paying the promoter for that spot.

Well, the promoter *is* getting paid for the spot; someone else is subletting part of it.

"You know, Kramer, I rented out half of my space to you..."

"...and I rented out half of that space to Newman!"

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Well, the promoter *is* getting paid for the spot; someone else is subletting part of it.

"You know, Kramer, I rented out half of my space to you..."

"...and I rented out half of that space to Newman!"

That is how people that get paid and people that pay people see things differently. As a business owner I do not see the promoter getting paid anything for another seller in their venue. The person subletting is the one getting paid and the discounted space. That is complete BS when the others are paying full price and there is a huge waiting list of others willing to pay full price.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by bnorth

That is how people that get paid and people that pay people see things differently. As a business owner I do not see the promoter getting paid anything for another seller in their venue. The person subletting is the one getting paid and the discounted space. That is complete BS when the others are paying full price and there is a huge waiting list of others willing to pay full price.

But if there's a waiting list and all the available spaces are already paid for, there isn't a way for someone to pay the promoter full price (or any price).

[JackR]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Well, the promoter *is* getting paid for the spot; someone else is subletting part of it.

"You know, Kramer, I rented out half of my space to you..."

"...and I rented out half of that space to Newman!"

These are the kind of comments that keep me coming back…

[Exhibitman]

It's BS given that the front door to the show is closed to new dealers. The only people adversely affected are the consumers who do not get to see as many items as they otherwise would if the subletting dealers are allowed.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

I know one dealer who set up last year for the first time. They had never set up before, nor were they ever really a dealer in the past. They also wouldn't have been entered into any lottery, as they were too busy with other hobby/industry work obligations to have ever needed to do so. How does that happen?

Also, I can tell you that for many, many years, one of the major TPAs rented their space from a former ballplayer who owned that slot. How does that happen?

[philliesfan]

I do not see a problem with it. Sort of. For example, If a show is 500 booths with 2 tables per booth and $600.00 per booth ($300.00 per table). That is 1,000 tables total. If I rent 1 table from an existing seller and pay him the $300.00 for a table, why should the promoter be paid anything? He was still paid the $600.00 fee per booth. And as far as patrons, they are still seeing 1,000 tables of merchandise.

I think the problem may be legal issues. What if the dealer subletting the space has an issue with a customer and something goes wrong. Who is responsible? The booth owner? The dealer subletting the space?

Now what happens if there is a theft and I lose a $10,000.00 card. Who explains and reports it to the promoter, the police? And how would my collectibles insurance company view it since I was not an authorized dealer?

There is a lot of things to consider.

There could be a solution. If the dealer that has the space provides the necessary information about the secondary dealer to the promoter, he could get a contract signed and charge an additional fee of $50.00 or $100.00 for paperwork.

Just my thoughts.
Bob

[butchie_t]

Wouldn't the fact that it just sounds wrong ever come into play?

Because it sounds wrong. Nothing like gaming the system to get away with something.

If I was ever a promoter and I found out about it. Both would be banned from any future event.

It just is not cool. IMHO.

Just because you can, does not mean you should.

Butch Turner

[mrreality68]

I believe subletting should be ok and it allows more dealers the chance to get in and more products/selections.
IF there is concern or liablities then the National should add something into the their contract to address it

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

you guys aren't following the subletting idea through to it's greedy conclusion.

First: Dealers are subletting at a mark up, not the way to make a promoter happy.

Second: Dealers who have a high priority number have taken more booths than they need to specifically sublet, again at a mark up. This should piss new potential dealers off more than anything the promoter does. This is a MAJOR reason that even guys who have done the show aren't assured of a booth going forward.

[Al C.risafulli]

Second: Dealers who have a high priority number have taken more booths than they need to specifically sublet, again at a mark up. This should piss new potential dealers off more than anything the promoter does. This is a MAJOR reason that even guys who have done the show aren't assured of a booth going forward.

Third: as a result of this, companies (like mine) are getting further and further away from the door each year, despite having done Nationals for a decade, as companies sublet better locations from dealers with a surplus of space. Last year, our 10th National, I needed a sherpa and a couple of pack mules to get to our booth. As we journeyed between base camp and our booth, the sherpa pointed out multiple companies who have done fewer Nationals than we have, but with much better locations, as they sublet space from people who weren't even there.

-Al

[parkplace33]

If the National opened up more spots or did a lottery, this wouldn't happen.

Either way, I am sure a dealer will sublet you space. Cash is king.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

If the National opened up more spots or did a lottery, this wouldn't happen.

Either way, I am sure a dealer will sublet you space. Cash is king.

To your first comment, not true actually. How can they open more spots than are physically available. Event Centers only hold x amount of space for x amount of dealers and customers. Not to mention that the fire codes for respective states are going to limit how many people can actually be in an area at any given time. And they have been known to close the doors and delay entry until they feel the numbers are ok.

And even if the National could find a larger spot, you believe that that would somehow bring every dealer in on the wait list? There would still be many unhappy dealers lamenting the fact that they did not get in again.

And how about the customer that is wanting to get to as many tables as they can over the event. Get too many dealers in an overly large event center then you are ticking off the customer because they cannot get to all or most all of the dealer tables.

There has to be a balance of a number of things as it pertains to holding an event such as the National. No one is ever going to be pleased with the results. But subletting, is still not cool to those that work within the rules of the events.

Butch Turner

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

To your first comment, not true actually. How can they open more spots than are physically available. Event Centers only hold x amount of space for x amount of dealers and customers. Not to mention that the fire codes for respective states are going to limit how many people can actually be in an area at any given time. And they have been known to close the doors and delay entry until they feel the numbers are ok.

And even if the National could find a larger spot, you believe that that would somehow bring every dealer in on the wait list? There would still be many unhappy dealers lamenting the fact that they did not get in again.

And how about the customer that is wanting to get to as many tables as they can over the event. Get too many dealers in an overly large event center then you are ticking off the customer because they cannot get to all or most all of the dealer tables.

There has to be a balance of a number of things as it pertains to holding an event such as the National. No one is ever going to be pleased with the results. But subletting, is still not cool to those that work within the rules of the events.

Butch Turner

I understand your concern, but the fact is this is already happening now (subletting). It is impossible to police.

[Jewish-collector]

What they should do is one year move it here to this facility in Chicago and let everyone have a table. Plenty of exhibit space. No more waiting list. No one will be turned down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCormick_Place

[notfast]

Sounds like you are actually asking if any dealers need assistance working their booth next year.

Maybe they’d let you display a few cards too.

[ezez420]

Maybe promoters should enforce the tax ids of the people that have tables. Watch how many bail and tables are given up.

It's not rocket science to know that is a big part of the issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by ezez420

Maybe promoters should enforce the tax ids of the people that have tables. Watch how many bail and tables are given up.

It's not rocket science to know that is a big part of the issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The State Of Illinois does that....

[midmo]

The National's new management team talks a little about booth space starting with the question at 33:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCjPy1d-No0

[prewarsports]

I am a priority 12 and BARELY get tables every year. Yet somehow, every single year the dealer list at the show is FILLED with priority 0-1-2-3 etc. How does that happen?

The National used to be 2000+ dealers and was awesome. It is all corporate space now and a massive "break" area which is just youtubers yelling into microphones and annoying the hell out of everyone for clicks. Maybe 500 actual dealers with stuff for sale and you can see the whole show in a day, easy.

There should not be an option to "sell out" of national space. The Stephens Convention Center in Chicago for example used to use two entire halls across the lobby from each other and it was amazing. That other hall sits empty now every year while a thousand dealers are begging for tables. You already have the infrastructure in place, what is the marginal cost of adding another 500-1000 dealers over there? Not much, but then the big corporate areas would complain that they were not getting enough foot traffic for the huge prices they are paying, so there is your answer!

[Snapolit1]

Be interesting to see how many of those breakers and screamers are going to paying boku bucks for space going forward. They have taken it on the chin, to be charitable, the last 12-18 months.

[Exhibitman]

I sense an epic Festivus screed for my blog…

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by midmo

The National's new management team talks a little about booth space starting with the question at 33:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCjPy1d-No0

I watched that video. While they did address the dealer subletting, it would be interesting to be able to read the updated charter and see how they wrote about it.

It still seems that they are grappling with how to handle it.

Butch

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I sense an epic Festivus screed for my blog…

Tis' the season!

[midmo]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

I watched that video. While they did address the dealer subletting, it would be interesting to be able to read the updated charter and see how they wrote about it.

It still seems that they are grappling with how to handle it.

Butch

At the Net54 dinner I could have sworn they said that dealers caught selling space would lose their priority status but I could be mis-remembering.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by midmo

At the Net54 dinner I could have sworn they said that dealers caught selling space would lose their priority status but I could be mis-remembering.

What they say and what they do could be two separate things.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

What they say and what they do could be two separate things.

I don't think so, not with this group. Of course they have taken on a million piece puzzle so anything can change, but all 3 of these gentleman have long, good track records in the hobby.
.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't think so, not with this group. Of course they have taken on a million piece puzzle so anything can change, but all 3 of these gentleman have long, good track records in the hobby.
.

I agree, but with everything going on it can't be an easy thing to police.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

What they say and what they do could be two separate things.

Again it happens all the time in politics and shop talk. I believe they have good intentions but things change and are harder then expected....

[Rich Klein]

Some thoughts on this

1) What is interesting is if I'm the sole proprietor table holder and need or want help to watch my booth. So I contact my friend and say, hey come help me at the show and I'll give you a showcase to sell your stuff. Or More. The helper says I'll pay you for the table/showcase. Tell me how you police that. The reason I point that out is the NSCC is a 6-day endurance contest now a days and I don't think I could do the show without that type of help.

2) I was told no one with a priority of less than 3 or 4 (I don't remember which one) has a table. Remember life happens and there are always cancellations or other issues. Make sure you contact the NSCC dealer office to be officially placed on a waiting list.

3) The breaking area is seperate and they usually don't sell cards at their tables/booths. Breaking is so popular that this is a big thing in the MODERN card hobby. We can argue on this board about whether it should be but it is and this gets more newer cards into circulation.

4) Even in the 1980s when I set up as a young whipper snapper at the NSCC there were myriad tax people and forms to deal with. I bet they are part or will be part of the dealer packet.

If I think of more I'll jot those down but that's a start

Rich

[midmo]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Some thoughts on this

1) What is interesting is if I'm the sole proprietor table holder and need or want help to watch my booth. So I contact my friend and say, hey come help me at the show and I'll give you a showcase to sell your stuff. Or More. The helper says I'll pay you for the table/showcase. Tell me how you police that. The reason I point that out is the NSCC is a 6-day endurance contest now a days and I don't think I could do the show without that type of help.

Rich

I would guess that a small dealer that enlists a buddy to help out is not what they're focusing on as much as the grandfathered in guys that purchase their 4 booth max only to resell a couple at inflated prices. But who knows.

[SteveMitchell]

When the National League got too big for its britches (along with a cut back in League size), Ban Johnson came along and transformed his Western League into the American League. Is there enough interest in forming a similar challenge to "The National" with "The AMERICAN"? If so, could it overtake The National within 4 years like the A.L. did the N.L.?

[Exhibitman]

Well we do have an 800-table show out here over Labor Day weekend.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by SteveMitchell

When the National League got too big for its britches (along with a cut back in League size), Ban Johnson came along and transformed his Western League into the American League. Is there enough interest in forming a similar challenge to "The National" with "The AMERICAN"? If so, could it overtake The National within 4 years like the A.L. did the N.L.?

Love the idea... Start it out in Vegas!

[Hankphenom]

It's hard for me to imagine anyone mounting the effort to provide a true alternative to the National, or offering a second "National," but if the unmet demand continues to rise, something has to give. Of course, the promoters only care to a certain extant who buys their tables and what they do with them. What's good for them and what's good for the hobby are not exactly the same thing. Priority dealers buying multiple tables to sublet to the same dealers show after show and thereby blocking out new dealers can't be a good thing, I wouldn't imagine. An allowance for some turnover and new blood has to be built in somehow. Quick story: about 20 yeas ago, I finally talked my buddy Kevin Keating, perhaps the biggest sports autograph dealer in the world by then, into setting up at shows. He applied to Bob Schmierer, legendary founder of the "Philly Show"--then operating four times yearly at Ft. Washington and pretty much at it's peak--and was accepted. When Bob came by to meet Kevin, they had a nice chat in the course of which Kevin asked innocently, "What do I have to do to get a corner table?" Giving Kevin the evil eye, Bob replied gruffly, "those are not for rookies," and walked away. Kevin and I have had many laughs over that in the years since, but the point is that the Philly Show stood out above all others for a reason: Bob Schmierer knew how to run a great show. The best dealers, orderly setups and breakdowns, no dealers leaving early, even on Sundays, etc. Whatever "policing" of table space and availability is required for the good of all wouldn't be that hard, it just takes the will to do it. Bob could show them how. Everybody may not have loved him, but they loved his shows. RIP, Bob.