Some of the mysteries and myths surrounding the most famous card in the hobby.

[tedzan]

Hey Folks, I will reiterate......

" My research indicates that the original uncut sheet that these two cards were printed on was originally discovered in Long Island, NY (Suffolk County).
Several other T206 Wagner cards have also been discovered in this part of L.I., NY ."
However, eventually, this particular sheet ended-up (or I should say "ended-down") in Florida.




Joseph Palmer Knapp was the founder of the American Lithographic Company (circa late 19th Century). He had a Summer home in Mastic Beach, L. I.,
New York. The point I'm making here is that Mr Knapp sometime during the summer of 1909 most likely brought T206 sheets containing Wagner cards
and Plank's, and other 150-only Series cards home for his children.

What evidence do I have that there is a high likelihood that this occurred......check-out the following complete uncut sheets which I acquired (circa 40
years ago) from former employees at Zabel Brothers Printers in Philadelphia, that produced the BOWMAN cards. During my High School years, I had a
part-time job working at a Print Shop. The printers regularly took home many of their printed material.



1948 BOWMAN complete uncut sheets






1949 BOWMAN complete uncut sheets





1950 BOWMAN complete uncut sheet




1952 BOWMAN complete uncut sheet (Large card version)




Pat
Regarding this statement of yours.....
" When you look at the back information on the Plank it indicates a late addition to the set "

I don't quite get it. Please explain.




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey Folks, I will reiterate......

" My research indicates that the original uncut sheet that these two cards were printed on was originally discovered in Long Island, NY (Suffolk County).
Several other T206 Wagner cards have also been discovered in this part of L.I., NY ."
However, eventually, this particular sheet ended-up (or I should say down) in Florida.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

And this is what I'm talking about with the mysteries and myths surrounding the card. Are you saying it was discovered in Long Island then somehow ended up in Florida where it was then brought back to Long Island and cut up?

You keep ,posting that your research indicates that it was originally discovered on Long Island but you're not showing or saying where that information came from.

Here's the claim that I've seen about it's origin

img188.jpg

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Pat R

And this is what I'm talking about with the mysteries and myths surrounding the card. Are you saying it was discovered in Long Island then somehow ended up in Florida where it was then brought back to Long Island and cut up?

You keep ,posting that your research indicates that it was originally discovered on Long Island but you're not showing or saying where that information came from.

Here's the claim that I've seen about it's origin

Attachment 543092

Maybe it had a homing instinct.

But just to clarify, remind me, who allegedly cut the card from the sheet? And who owned the single when Mastro bought it?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe it had a homing instinct.

But just to clarify, remind me, who allegedly cut the card from the sheet? And who owned the single when Mastro bought it?

Allegedly Ray and Sevchuk cut up the sheet before Mastro purchased the Wagner and the other cards that was on it from them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Allegedly Ray and Sevchuk cut up the sheet before Mastro purchased the Wagner and the other cards that was on it from them.

OK that makes sense; it was Ray I believe who supplied the controversial "before" picture that was published in the Daily News.

[tedzan]

If you are quoting excerpts from "The Card", be careful, because there are inaccuracies in it. For example, starting with this excerpt on Page #33.....

"The cards were printed at seven factories in New York, Ohio, Virginia, North Carolina. The factory where each card was made was stamped on the back."



These T206's were printed (produced) in New York City by the AMERICAN LITHOGRAPHIC COMPANY (ALC) beginning in 1909....and continued thru to 1919 (T213-3).

ALC would package up these cards and ship them via rail to the various Tobacco Factories to be inserted in their Cigarette packs.

The Tobacco Factories' machinery (and employees) were set up ONLY for producing Tobacco products. They did not have the capability to do the printing.

There are some other such inaccuracies. But, I do not have the time to go into them, now.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by tedzan

If you are quoting excerpts from "The Card", be careful, because there are inaccuracies in it. For example, starting with this excerpt on Page #33.....

"The cards were printed at seven factories in New York, Ohio, Virginia, North Carolina. The factory where each card was made was stamped on the back."



These T206's were printed (produced) in New York City by the AMERICAN LITHOGRAPHIC COMPANY (ALC) beginning in 1909....and continued thru to 1919 (T213-3).

ALC would package up these cards and ship them via rail to the various Tobacco Factories to be inserted in their Cigarette packs.

The Tobacco Factories' machinery (and employees) were set up ONLY for producing Tobacco products. They did not have the capability to do printing.

There are some other such inaccuracies. But, I do not have the time to go into them, now.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Can you give a source or evidence for the claim in question?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

1.....
" My research indicates that the original uncut sheet that these two cards were printed on was originally discovered in Long Island, NY (Suffolk County).
Several other T206 Wagner cards have also been discovered in this part of L.I., NY ."
However, eventually, this particular sheet ended-up (or I should say "ended-down") in Florida.

2.....
Pat
Regarding this statement of yours.....
" When you look at the back information on the Plank it indicates a late addition to the set "


I don't quite get it. Please explain.

Greg

1..... You have to realize that back in 1985, I was one of the dealers at the Willow Grove Show to whom this card was offered to. Upon my close examination, I passed on it.
I was told that it was originally discovered on an uncut sheet in Long Island, NY. I cannot recall who told me of this that weekend in 1985. My research indicating Mr. Knapp
of ALC having a residence in that part of Long Island provided a certain amount of credibility to story.
Years later, the "source" of this Wagner card was said to be Florida. And that claim sounded plausible, since many New Yorkers are "snow birds" during the Winter.

2...... I simply asked Pat if he would elaborate on the difference between the Plank card's back with respect to the Wagner card's back).

Do you have a "problem" with this question ?



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have a vague memory of Ray refusing to say where he got the card, which would be inconsistent with his father having purchased the sheet in Florida. Maybe that's wrong.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Greg

1..... You have to realize that back in 1985, I was one of the dealers at the Willow Grove Show to whom this card was offered to. Upon my close examination, I passed on it.
I was told that it was originally discovered on an uncut sheet in Long Island, NY. I cannot recall who told me of this that weekend in 1985. My research indicating Mr. Knapp
of ALC having a residence in that part of Long Island provided a certain amount of credibility to story.
Years later, the "source" of this Wagner card was said to be Florida. And that claim sounded plausible, since many New Yorkers are "snow birds" during the Winter.

2...... I simply asked Pat if he would elaborate on the difference between the Plank card's back with respect to the Wagner card's back).

Do you have a "problem" with this question ?



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

1. You said in 46 and reiterated in 51, "My research indicates that the original uncut sheet that these two cards were on was first discovered in Long Island, NY (Suffolk County)." Pat cited a source, reported in The Card, that contains the familiar Florida source, of it being found at a flea market there. So I asked what is the evidence for this counter claim. I have no idea what the actual truth is, but it seems logical that, when we have conflicting evidence, we would look at all of that evidence to see where it leads. We have one side of it sourced. It sounds like the evidence against this is that you heard an anonymous person of unknown connection to the origin say otherwise at a show?

2. Obviously I have no problem with asking Pat on the differences of it's reverse(s) with Wagner.

[Bigdaddy]

So if the sheet was 'discovered' at a flea market in FL, many (70?) years after it was printed, what is the history of the sheet before the flea market? If it was indeed printed in NYC, like Ted says, could it not have lived on Long Island for many, many years before making it's way to Florida?

It seems entirely possible that both stories are correct, just shifted in time from each other.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

So if the sheet was 'discovered' at a flea market in FL, many (70?) years after it was printed, what is the history of the sheet before the flea market? If it was indeed printed in NYC, like Ted says, could it not have lived on Long Island for many, many years before making it's way to Florida?

It seems entirely possible that both stories are correct, just shifted in time from each other.

I think Ted is referring not to where it was printed but where it was "discovered" in the sense of becoming known to the hobby.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

So if the sheet was 'discovered' at a flea market in FL, many (70?) years after it was printed, what is the history of the sheet before the flea market? If it was indeed printed in NYC, like Ted says, could it not have lived on Long Island for many, many years before making it's way to Florida?

It seems entirely possible that both stories are correct, just shifted in time from each other.

The discussion wasn't about the sheet originating in NY it most likely did, the discussion was did the card originate from a sheet discovered in Florida.

[G1911]

Where it was printed was separate, and it probably was the NY area, but I think we do not know where exactly and this should not be stated as a fact. The T card printing was done in multiple locations, by multiple companies (which may or may not have been shadow subsidiaries and 1 real company; American Lithography), that much we do know for certain. The only cards where we know where they were printed are the ones in the Fullgraff ledger/notebook, the full contents of which are not public. Those cards in those sets weren’t all necessarily printed at that facility. The ATC ledger doesn’t give any printing locations, and I’ve never seen actual evidence that a particular set outside of the Fullgraff ledger/book was produced at a particular facility. I suspect long running sets with massive runs may have spanned multiple facilities. Such evidence may exist and I simply am not privy to it.

The discovery of the sheet is the issue in question. We have, one one hand, the reported interviews by O’Keeffe in his book. On the other, we appear to have a report that an unknown person, with unknown connection to the sheet, said something different at a show in 1985 to a member. I’d love to know if there is any other evidence; this sheet’s destruction ruined a fair bit of history that might have been able to tell us a lot about many T cards, beyond T206 only.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The story in The Card is from multiple hearsay sources, sometimes multiple levels, no? Not terribly reliable.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Greg

1..... You have to realize that back in 1985, I was one of the dealers at the Willow Grove Show to whom this card was offered to. Upon my close examination, I passed on it.
I was told that it was originally discovered on an uncut sheet in Long Island, NY. I cannot recall who told me of this that weekend in 1985. My research indicating Mr. Knapp
of ALC having a residence in that part of Long Island provided a certain amount of credibility to story.
Years later, the "source" of this Wagner card was said to be Florida. And that claim sounded plausible, since many New Yorkers are "snow birds" during the Winter.

2...... I simply asked Pat if he would elaborate on the difference between the Plank card's back with respect to the Wagner card's back).

Do you have a "problem" with this question ?



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

First group is 150 series and the second factors in the 350 series


img189.jpg

[Pat R]

Corey, you should probably direct your authenticity questions to Ted.

Originally Posted by tedzan;

[B

1985....[/B]Four of us trading cards in in my room at the George Washington Motor Lodge in Willow Grove, Pennsylvania, prior to the 5 PM (Friday) start of the BB card Show.

Enter......Rob Lifson and Bill Mastro with the "sharpest" T206 Wagner ever seen. Furthermore, having a PIEDMONT 150 back. They were shopping it around, asking $25K
for it. The 4 of us examined it closely, then told Rob and Bill that we decided to pass on it. All four of us agreed it was trimmed. Needless to say, this Wagner card was the
talk of the Show that weekend. And the rest is history.
This collection with the Wagner card was originally on an uncut sheet which included an Eddie Plank


Having said all this..... it is my opinion that the initial Series of these T206's were definitely printed at the American Lithographic Co. (in downtown NYC).

And, that the probable explanation for the SWEET CAPORAL 350 cards of Plank.....all (or most) of which have a pale blue background).....may have been
printed elsewhere. I consider these SWEET CAP 350 Plank's to be some kind of an anomaly. The initial Plank cards are indeed 150-only Series subjects.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Greg

1..... You have to realize that back in 1985, I was one of the dealers at the Willow Grove Show to whom this card was offered to. Upon my close examination, I passed on it.
I was told that it was originally discovered on an uncut sheet in Long Island, NY. I cannot recall who told me of this that weekend in 1985. My research indicating Mr. Knapp
of ALC having a residence in that part of Long Island provided a certain amount of credibility to story.
Years later, the "source" of this Wagner card was said to be Florida. And that claim sounded plausible, since many New Yorkers are "snow birds" during the Winter.

2...... I simply asked Pat if he would elaborate on the difference between the Plank card's back with respect to the Wagner card's back).

Do you have a "problem" with this question ?



TED Z

T206 Reference
.