Uncut Proof sheet c. 1913 with Cobb and Joe Jackson in May '24 Hunt Auctions

[cgjackson222]

Any thoughts on the potential history of this uncut sheet with Cobb and Joe Jackson that was sold by Hunt Auctions for $30K plus buyer's premium?

Do people think it is legit?

https://huntauctions.com/live/imagev...=501&lot_qual=

[brianp-beme]

I don't think anyone really knows much about this, beyond what was written up in the Hunt description. It certainly seems to have been identified to be from around the 1913 date based upon the players and a couple of paper experts, and it appears to my eyes to be colorized photos. They have an unique look.

What a great mini-set this could have been! Besides the obvious superstar appeal of Jackson and Cobb, I love the two action shots (Bender and Marquard), and the Davis with the two cops in the background.


Brian (and here is an even bigger scan to appreciate the look of this sheet even more)

[packs]

The Harry Davis image is cool. I'm guessing he's hoisting a flag maybe?

[JollyElm]

Seems (wherever this comes from) that they misspelled it "HUGIHE" Jennings.

[Hankphenom]

That is nice! Amazing what pops up.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

I don't think anyone really knows much about this, beyond what was written up in the Hunt description. It certainly seems to have been identified to be from around the 1913 date based upon the players and a couple of paper experts, and it appears to my eyes to be colorized photos. They have an unique look.

What a great mini-set this could have been! Besides the obvious superstar appeal of Jackson and Cobb, I love the two action shots (Bender and Marquard), and the Davis with the two cops in the background.


Brian (and here is an even bigger scan to appreciate the look of this sheet even more)

I know nothing about it at all. To me it looks like something the modern Helmar company would make.

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I know nothing about it at all. To me it looks like something the modern Helmar company would make.

Ha ha, don’t give them ideas.

[FrankWakefield]

Just from that image, I don't think it is real. I'm sure they think it is; otherwise, it wouldn't be in their catalog.

[GasHouseGang]

It's hard to imagine a sheet like that sitting around for 111 years without being discovered. Is there any explanation given about where they found it? Maybe in the files of some defunct printing company? It's also surprising that no other cards from this set have apparently ever surfaced. Amazing discovery.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

It's hard to imagine a sheet like that sitting around for 111 years without being discovered. Is there any explanation given about where they found it? Maybe in the files of some defunct printing company? It's also surprising that no other cards from this set have apparently ever surfaced. Amazing discovery.

The only explanation given in the description is “Important discovery originates from a hobbyist who acquired the piece in the Brooklyn area over 40 years ago.”

I want to give the benefit of the doubt, but I am skeptical.

[4815162342]

If only it had been found in an attic in Ohio.

[Lucas00]

It is a very intriguing piece. Definitely suspicious of the high tier player choice, but that of course was common to do for the day.

The printing and images chosen to me are very high quality, something I just can't see being done post war.

If I had to personally guess what I think this is, I would say there's a good chance it's something akin to '33 Goudey. Some sort of popular/star player release from slightly later maybe the 20s-30s.

If the original photos used to create these aren't known to exist or most aren't I would give even more merit to them being real. (Lost media=impossible to use in modern era?)

Just my thoughts.

[G1911]

Other authentic vintage uncut material of this age has surfaced in the New York area in the last few years. Being discovered so much later does not raise doubt in my mind by itself.

It is nigh impossible to authenticate an unknown item though, which, if period, may not even be for unissued cards but testing other kinds of printed pictures.

I am surprised by the price paid by someone, unless they know something I do not which is very possible. I was watching this one.

[oldjudge]

Who is Roy Otis?

[jcmtiger]

Not for me, only as a fantasy piece. Been Collecting Ty Cobb items, cards and memoriblia since 1970. Dubious. Never saw anything like this. Colorized. But admit had these calendar pieces that were colorized.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Who is Roy Otis?

Good question. I found a Paul Franklin Otis, identified as 'Bill Otis' on the Baseball Reference site, that played 4 games for the New York Yankees in early July, 1912. Emblem experts...is the 'NY' on his sleeve match what was on Yankee uniforms in the early 1910's?

It fits the time frame of the proof sheet, and 'Paul' or 'Bill' could easily be mistaken for Roy. Ok, the name thing is a little sketchy stretchy, but it could have been a mistake.

Here is a photo of Bill Otis next to the Roy Otis card on the sheet. There are some similarities (the shape of his ear is pretty similar, the eyes and mouth as well), but not convinced it is a good match due to the fullness of face on the proof sheet compared to Bill's photo.

proofsheetpaulfranklinotis.jpg
proofsheet1913royotis.jpg


Brian

[brianp-beme]

Taking a look at some 1912 T207 cards, the 'NY' emblem seen on the proof sheet does seem to match those seen on Yankee player T207 cards.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Fun side factoid. Bill Otis was 1 for 17 during his major league career, his one hit coming off Walter Johnson in an extra inning game that Johnson came in the fourth inning to pitch over 12 innings of relief(!).

He was also the oldest living MLB player (100 years old) when he passed away in 1990.


Brian

[nolemmings]

Roy Otis is Otis "Doc" Crandall, as they state in the description.
This item was discussed here years ago:
https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?p=1385155

[babraham]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Who is Roy Otis?

Hunt Auctions write-up on the uncut sheet says that it was supposed to be Otis Crandall?

"Thin to medium stock paper uncut sheet (slightly thicker than 1914/1915 Cracker Jack card issues) depicting (12) Major League players in full color including Ty Cobb, Bill Schardt, Chief Bender, Roy Otis (actually Otis Crandall), Hughie Jennings, Ira Thomas, Vean Gregg, Harry Davis, Hub Perdue, Rube Marquard, Joe Jackson, and Frank Baker."

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Roy Otis is Otis "Doc" Crandall, as they state in the description.
This item was discussed here years ago:
https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?p=1385155

Todd, Thanks so much for providing this info!

So this item was actually being sold for the second time by Hunt Auctions. According to the link provided in the thread from 2015, it sold for $36,634 plus buyer’s premium in 2015, which is less than the $30K plus buyer’s premium it sold this time around..

Leon’s comment from 2015 is fascinating/revealing: “This from a close hobby friend and as trustworthy as they come- (this is assuming it hasn't changed hands)
"Around the late 1990's, the owner of that uncut sheet in Hunt's consigned it to me for private sale. I made a color photocopy of it and sent it out to about 50 people. Nobody showed a strong interest in it, and most were not sure if it was period. I ended up returning it to the owner. I think we were asking 15K for it. I don't remember who got my mailing but it was obviously all of the heavy hitters I knew back then. ...”"

If Leon’s friend was shopping it around for $15k in the ‘90s, then i guess the seller must have been happy to get $40k at auction in 2015 (assuming it didn’t change hands, etc)

[Beercan collector]

Don’t know if it means anything but it appears The lettering is done by hand ,
The “S”s , “H”s etc are all slightly different , “Gregg” and “Marquard” are way off centered - giving the cards a crude ancient look

[Leon]

I don't know if it's real or not but anytime I see those big stars, in the same unique place, it gives me some pause. Someone needs to invest in some scientifc analysis of the ink, paper and the process used to print it.

.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't know if it's real or not but anytime I see those big stars, in the same unique place, it gives me some pause. Someone needs to invest in some scientifc analysis of the ink, paper and the process used to print it.

.

Probably don't need all that scientific stuff. I was informed earlier that pictures of baseball players can't be reproduced yet in another thread. Somehow we don't have the technology yet.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't know if it's real or not but anytime I see those big stars, in the same unique place, it gives me some pause. Someone needs to invest in some scientifc analysis of the ink, paper and the process used to print it.

.

According to the description: "Lab tests regarding both the ink and paper on which it was printed were carried out by Joseph G. Barabe and Frank J. Romano (both highly respected experts in the field of analyzing historical objects and print, respectively). The Romano findings conclude with production between c.1910-1915 while Barabe concludes the possibility that it could have been produced between 1913-20."

But what gets me is that the description in the current auction says "Due to current sizing constraints for SGC holder we are unable to have the piece encapsulated however it was examined by SGC President Dave Forman in 2016 who states that the no sees “no physical evidence that contradicts the finding of the Barabe And Associates Lab Report.” but the description back in 2015 when Hunt first sold the piece claims "Due to current sizing constraints for SGC and PSA holders we were not able to have the piece encapsulated but fully guarantee its authenticity as well as the fact that it would be deemed authentic by either grading company should said holders become available."


Looks like they are walking back the assertion that both PSA or SGC would holder it if larger slabs become available.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

It's hard to imagine a sheet like that sitting around for 111 years without being discovered. Is there any explanation given about where they found it? Maybe in the files of some defunct printing company? It's also surprising that no other cards from this set have apparently ever surfaced. Amazing discovery.

An attic. In a trunk. It's an attic find no doubt.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

According to the description: "Lab tests regarding both the ink and paper on which it was printed were carried out by Joseph G. Barabe and Frank J. Romano (both highly respected experts in the field of analyzing historical objects and print, respectively). The Romano findings conclude with production between c.1910-1915 while Barabe concludes the possibility that it could have been produced between 1913-20."

But what gets me is that the description in the current auction says "Due to current sizing constraints for SGC holder we are unable to have the piece encapsulated however it was examined by SGC President Dave Forman in 2016 who states that the no sees “no physical evidence that contradicts the finding of the Barabe And Associates Lab Report.” but the description back in 2015 when Hunt first sold the piece claims "Due to current sizing constraints for SGC and PSA holders we were not able to have the piece encapsulated but fully guarantee its authenticity as well as the fact that it would be deemed authentic by either grading company should said holders become available."


Looks like they are walking back the assertion that both PSA or SGC would holder it if larger slabs become available.

Both groups of "experts" have been gradually stopping the grading of some things, usually anything they can't get right

[packs]

I would just hesitate to call them baseball cards. How do you know they're cards? I know they have printer's mark for cutting but cutting something up doesn't make it a baseball card by virtue of the square having a picture of a baseball player on it.

I think the intention can't really be determined from this one sheet. They could be part of an advertising piece, a calendar, any kind of print media really. All we know for sure is that the images may have been meant to be cut out. But for what ultimate purpose is impossible to know.

For example, how do you know these weren't images intended to be arranged for a notebook cover? There's just as much precedent for that as there is for baseball cards.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by packs

I would just hesitate to call them baseball cards. How do you know they're cards? I know they have printer's mark for cutting but cutting something up doesn't make it a baseball card by virtue of the square having a picture of a baseball player on it.

I think the intention can't really be determined from this one sheet. They could be part of an advertising piece, a calendar, any kind of print media really. All we know for sure is that the images may have been meant to be cut out. But for what ultimate purpose is impossible to know.

For example, how do you know these weren't images intended to be arranged for a notebook cover? There's just as much precedent for that as there is for baseball cards.

Good point. I think calling them an uncut sheet of cards makes it seem more valuable than the alternatives, like an uncut notebook cover sheet. But yeah, just because they resemble cards, does not mean that there supposed to be cards (assuming they are authentic in the first place).

[D. Bergin]

Hmmmm....


Roy Otis / Doc Crandall





"Roy" Hobbs




"Doc" Graham




Sid Finch
















That's my theory, and I'm stickin' to it!

[brianp-beme]

Dangit, I missed the Otis Crandall attribution in the lot description...4 lashes with a wet noodle for me!

Here is Doc (why in the fadoodle is he identified as Roy?) as compared to Roy Otis on the proof sheet. He was with the New York Giants during this time frame, the NY team emblem on his sleeve also seems to match the Giants emblem from that time, and more importantly, his eyebrows swoop in a very similar fashion.

Brian

[iwantitiwinit]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Just from that image, I don't think it is real. I'm sure they think it is; otherwise, it wouldn't be in their catalog.

My thoughts exactly.

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

My thoughts exactly.

Okay, if its not real where are those images from to create it? Lets go through the process of making this thing.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

Okay, if its not real where are those images from to create it? Lets go through the process of making this thing.

Fairly simple to get new old pictures like this. Recently it changed to now being IA. Before it was just called an app. Find a BW photo. Go to an app and colorize it. Very easy to find apps to do this. Then go to one of the apps that make old pictures move. Also very easy to find as they have even been shown on this forum using cards. Then do a still with the player in a new position and colorized.

That is one of many possible ways.

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Fairly simple to get new old pictures like this. Recently it changed to now being IA. Before it was just called an app. Find a BW photo. Go to an app and colorize it. Very easy to find apps to do this. Then go to one of the apps that make old pictures move. Also very easy to find as they have even been shown on this forum using cards. Then do a still with the player in a new position and colorized.

That is one of many possible ways.

I'm talking about those specific images. Have you seen them before? I collect type 1 photo's from that time and don't recall seeing them. Are they from newspapers?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

I'm talking about those specific images. Have you seen them before? I collect type 1 photo's from that time and don't recall seeing them. Are they from newspapers?

His point was you don't actually need specific images today. I think, however, when these were created, you probably did. Even if they're a fantasy piece I think they're too old for what Ben is suggesting.

I thought at first glance the Bender pose looked familiar.

[kcohen]

I might be convinced if authenticated by Rick Harrison's memorabilia expert, or by Seth Gold,

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

His point was you don't actually need specific images today. I think, however, when these were created, you probably did. Even if they're a fantasy piece I think they're too old for what Ben is suggesting.

I thought at first glance the Bender pose looked familiar.

Yeah, that was why I went straight into asking about the specific images. Those apps etc didn't exist prior to 2015 when this was first offered for sale. Also, the Helmar cards mentioned are artist renditions, these seem to be colorized photos, so there should be a B&W source.
I'm hoping that instead of just throwing in a skeptical/negative two cents and leaving, people will try to work through the process it would have taken to make something like this. I find it hard to believe that a company as experienced as Hunt would not only offer something like this if they didn't have confidence in it, let alone put it on the cover of their catalog.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

His point was you don't actually need specific images today. I think, however, when these were created, you probably did. Even if they're a fantasy piece I think they're too old for what Ben is suggesting.

I thought at first glance the Bender pose looked familiar.

That Bender image reminds me of his T207 image, close but not the same.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by kcohen

I might be convinced if authenticated by Rick Harrison's memorabilia expert, or by Seth Gold,

I want the guy with the HUGE magnifying glass!!
.

[Beercan collector]

For what it’s worth Harry Davis was in Cleveland for only one year - 1912

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

For what it’s worth Harry Davis was in Cleveland for only one year - 1912

Davis managed the club that one season. I would not be surprised if the photo on which this "card" is based was taken Opening Day, since it was common for the home team to have a parade and flag raising ceremony for the occasion, and the manager handling the flag raising would make sense, it that's what's going on in the picture (maybe with the mayor or other dignitary on the other side, plus note one of the officials in the background is removing his hat).

[Snapolit1]

One picture looks like a Hollywood leading man. The others looks like the inspiration for the Stay Puff Marsh mellow man.



QUOTE=brianp-beme;2431064]Dangit, I missed the Otis Crandall attribution in the lot description...4 lashes with a wet noodle for me!

Here is Doc (why in the fadoodle is he identified as Roy?) as compared to Roy Otis on the proof sheet. He was with the New York Giants during this time frame, the NY team emblem on his sleeve also seems to match the Giants emblem from that time, and more importantly, his eyebrows swoop in a very similar fashion.

Brian[/QUOTE]

[Beercan collector]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

That Bender image reminds me of his T207 image, close but not the same.

Hmm ... compared to whatever this is , T207’s are somewhat crude drawings in comparison - perhaps the t207 Bender and Gregg (C on uniform instead of Cleveland) drawings were inspired by the same photographs used in whatever this is . Edit t207 Perdue it’s definitely from the same image .. I guess what I’m getting at is most ofthese images Can be nailed down to 1911 or 1912
Note : I certainly prefer the t207 s

[boneheadandrube]

"Roy Otis" could make a good vintage baseball meme/inside joke here.

[jingram058]

I made this statement in 2 other threads. I'll stop now.

The knowledge you guys have with respect to cards is insane. I have seen and read all of your complaints about the grading companies. Most would seem to be legitimate complaints.

Thus I asked: why doesn't someone on this forum buy some slabs and flips, and starting grading cards right here?

Any of the legalese can be answered by the attorneys who regularly post in these threads.

I was then informed that someone once did that very thing; someone named Bob who is no longer with us (RIP).

I highly doubt that any fakery would get past the knowledge base of this forum. Likewise, I believe cards would receive an honest grade, good or bad.

[swarmee]

Does anyone actually print with 12 mixed colors like they did back in 1912? I think it would be relatively easy to verify with a high-res scan of the printing technique.

Or do we know that there are counterfeiters that are making cards exactly like they did 100 years ago; I figure acquiring paper is easy, but I have no problem believing this is a proof sheet for a set that just didn't get made.






Here's a period proof sheet showing all the various colors used to create the cards. Does anyone actually print items using these techniques now?

[Beercan collector]

I apologize for posting so much on this thread I just find stuff like this overwhelmingly interesting .
Whatever this thing is has an uncropped image of the t207 Perdue image ,
Not only the same expression on his face but
His Cap is Identical

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

I apologize for posting so much on this thread I just find stuff like this overwhelmingly interesting .
Whatever this thing is has an uncropped image of the t207 Perdue image ,
Not only the same expression on his face but
His Cap is Identical

I'd call that a match. Photo to artistic interpretation of said photo.

[Lorewalker]

Best news is that I now know where the image of Cobb I use for my avatar came from! Can stop looking for the card now.