Top 30 Pre-WWII Players

[goodtricks]

Rank them. If we get enough replies we can force rank based off people's lists. Should be a fun debate.

LIST UPDATED 3/20
01. Babe Ruth
02. Ty Cobb
03. Walter Johnson
04. Honus Wagner
05. Lou Gehrig
06. Rogers Hornsby
07. Cy Young
08. Christy Mathewson
09. Tris Speaker
10. Eddie Collins
11. Jimmie Foxx
12. Nap Lajoie
13. Pete Alexander
14. Lefty Grove
15. Joe Jackson
16.
17.
18.
19.
20
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.
27.
28.
29.
30.

[yanksfan09]

How do you classify guys that overlapped both eras, like DiMaggio and Williams etc...?

[goodtricks]

Might as well include them, would be a whole other debate on how to define eligibility.

[T206DK]

I think Rogers Hornsby should be in the top 10. Honus Wagner also

[cyseymour]

I'd consider The Splendid Splinter to be post-WWII. He did most of his damage from 1946-60. That's fifteen years after the war, and only four years pre-war. Joe D is a 7/5 ratio, however, so that's more of a gray area.

[ullmandds]

Steady...Eddie Colllins for sure...underrated inaugural inductee to HOF...#15-20?

[jcmtiger]

Ty Cobb would be #1 or #2 for me. Honus Wagner , Walter Johnson and Mickey Cochrane would be a couple of others.

Joe

[Peter_Spaeth]

batters Ruth Cobb Wagner Gehrig Hornsby Speaker Foxx Collins Lajoie Jackson Anson Ott
pitchers Johnson Alexander Young Mathewson Grove Hubbell Paige

[Jason]

I'm putting Cobb in that first slot no doubt.

[goodtricks]

Ok let's throw Williams and DiMaggio out.

[ullmandds]

Ruth is my #1! Cobb is #2. If cobb could pitch...then it'd be close!!!

[SushiX37]

Cobb and Wagner should be 1 and 2. Ruth ahead of either of them is a mistake. I may even put Matty and Cy Young ahead of Ruth.

Rich

[sbfinley]

Ruth-Cobb-Walter Johnson then everyone else. If DiMaggio was eligible I'd have him top 10. I'd probably have Ed Delehanty up there to, he was Gehrig-like during a dead ball era.

[MVSNYC]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Joe Jackson
4. Lou Gehrig
5. Christy Mathewson
6. Honus Wagner
6. Rogers Hornsby
7. Cy Young
8. Nap Lajoie
9. Tris Speaker
10. Jimmy Foxx
11. George Sisler
12. Walter Johnson
13. Eddie Collins
14. Joe DiMaggio
15. Ted Williams
16. Cap Anson
17. Rube Waddell
18. Wee Willie Keeler
19. Mel Ott
20 Zack Wheat
21. Jesse Burkett
22. Hank Greenberg
23. Smoky Joe Wood
24. Grover Cleveland Alexander
25. Lefty Grove
26. Pud Galvin
27. Al Simmons
28. Wahoo Sam Crawford
29. Paul Waner
30. Ed Delahanty

[conor912]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Ruth is my #1! Cobb is #2. If cobb could pitch...then it'd be close!!!

No way. I will give Ruth the "pop-icon" edge, but if I'm fielding a team, I'm taking Ty #1 every time.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by SushiX37

Cobb and Wagner should be 1 and 2. Ruth ahead of either of them is a mistake. I may even put Matty and Cy Young ahead of Ruth.

Rich

Rich,

If you weren't kidding, how could you possibly reach that conclusion? It would be a reach to throw Babe out of 1st slot in an all-time context IMO. Very interested in hearing your thoughts.... Thanks

[Clutch-Hitter]

So, you're one of two coaches picking teams and all these guys are lined up waiting to be picked and all are in top form...you decide to bypass Ruth? Who would do that? For one of the slap hitters? Very interesting and a good topic. Thanks

[conor912]

Yes, I will take a great, fierce all-around player over a great power hitter any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[GregMitch34]

People not picking Babe #1 surely are joking. Hell, he'd bat cleanup and then come on and pitch the final 3 innings to save the game for Matty.

[Mrvintage]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Rogers Hornsby
4. Nap Lajoie
5. Christy Mathewson
6. Walter Johnson
7. Lou Gehrig
8. Honus Wagner
9. Jimmie Foxx
10. Cy Young

[conor912]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

People not picking Babe #1 surely are joking. Hell, he'd bat cleanup and then come on and pitch the final 3 innings to save the game for Matty.

No way. I'm calling foul on this one. Babe didn't become the power hitter we know until after his pitching prime was over. He was never a force of both at any one time. You can't have it both ways.

[CW]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Joe Jackson
4. Lou Gehrig
5. Christy Mathewson
6. Honus Wagner
6. Rogers Hornsby
7. Cy Young
8. Nap Lajoie
9. Tris Speaker
10. Jimmy Foxx
11. George Sisler
12. Walter Johnson
13. Eddie Collins
14. Joe DiMaggio
15. Ted Williams
16. Cap Anson
17. Sam Crawford
18. Wee Willie Keeler
19. Mel Ott
20 Zack Wheat
21. Jesse Burkett
22. Hank Greenberg
23. Smoky Joe Wood
24. Grover Cleveland Alexander
25. Lefty Grove
26. Pud Galvin
27. Al Simmons
28. Wahoo Sam Crawford
29. Paul Waner
30. Ed Delahanty

Nice list. Your Top 15 is about as solid as it gets.

Oh... you have two Sam Crawfords.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by conor912

No way. I'm calling foul on this one. Babe didn't become the power hitter we know until after his pitching prime was over. He was never a force of both at any one time. You can't have it both ways.

Babe led his team in HR's during his pitching years and with far fewer AB's, I think. In any case, Cobb would have to be considered...that is by the second coach when it's his turn to pick

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Clutch-Hitter

Babe led his team in HR's during his pitching years and with far fewer AB's, I think. In any case, Cobb would have to be considered...that is by the second coach when it's his turn to pick

Cobb's best year was 1911, when he had a 1.088 OPS. Babe Ruth averaged a 1.164 OPS. That means that Cobb's best year ever would have been a subpar year for The Babe.

In other words, Cobb was nowhere nearly as good as Ruth, and in fact, if we were to count him, Ted Williams would come out ahead of Cobb as well. Then, if you were to consider that Cobb was a despicable human being, there is nothing great about that, either.

[digdugdig]

Another way to look at this...like putting together a fantasy league team...all time.
Who would be YOUR #1 pick, etc.
Are ya gonna go with the old addage "good pitching stops good hitting" or the eveyday position player??
A little different twist on this subject.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Joe Jackson
4. Lou Gehrig
5. Christy Mathewson
6. Honus Wagner
6. Rogers Hornsby
7. Cy Young
8. Nap Lajoie
9. Tris Speaker
10. Jimmy Foxx
11. George Sisler
12. Walter Johnson
13. Eddie Collins
14. Joe DiMaggio
15. Ted Williams
16. Cap Anson
17. Sam Crawford
18. Wee Willie Keeler
19. Mel Ott
20 Zack Wheat
21. Jesse Burkett
22. Hank Greenberg
23. Smoky Joe Wood
24. Grover Cleveland Alexander
25. Lefty Grove
26. Pud Galvin
27. Al Simmons
28. Wahoo Sam Crawford
29. Paul Waner
30. Ed Delahanty

Some of those guys could be dumped for Tris Speaker, Kid Nichols, Oscar Charleston, Josh Gibson, Satchell Paige, Charlie Gehringer. I would drop Simmons, Waner, Crawford and Wheat from the list.

[MVSNYC]

yeah, i am sure we can swap out several guys for others...i actually have Tris Already tho...

i just took out my second Wahoo and traded him for Rube Waddell.

this is fun!

PS- Josh Gibson & Satch are some serious players...i might need to really shake up my list

[conor912]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Cobb's best year was 1911, when he had a 1.088 OPS. Babe Ruth averaged a 1.164 OPS. That means that Cobb's best year ever would have been a subpar year for The Babe.

In other words, Cobb was nowhere nearly as good as Ruth, and in fact, if we were to count him, Ted Williams would come out ahead of Cobb as well. Then, if you were to consider that Cobb was a despicable human being, there is nothing great about that, either.

Fair enough, but 1) lets leave the morality debate for another time 2) Babe did the lions's share of his slugging after the dead ball era was over, whereas Cobb did his smack in the middle of it 3) at age 40 Cobb had 175 hits. By 40 Ruth had already drank and fried chickened himself out of the game. I'll take small ball production and stamina over power any day.

Let's just call it a managerial difference

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by conor912

Fair enough, but 1) lets leave the morality debate for another time 2) Babe did the lions's share of his slugging after the dead ball era was over, whereas Cobb did his smack in the middle of it 3) at age 40 Cobb had 175 hits. By 40 Ruth had already drank and fried chickened himself out of the game. I'll take small ball production and stamina over power any day.

Let's just call it a managerial difference

Those are good points, but even factoring in the league differences, plus the extra years Cobb played, Ruth still comes out ahead in WAR (160 to 144). But then Ruth also posted a 19.1 Pitching WAR, which gives him a total of 179. So Ruth outdistances Cobb by a pretty good margin.

Let me also say that Ruth had a World Series OPS of 1.211, while Cobb's was a miniscule .668. Talk about coming up small in the bigtime! If that's your definition of "small ball", then Cobb's a perfect fit.

[deadballfreaK]

I'm dividing mine into hitters and pitchers.
1. Babe Ruth- he was both.
2. Honus Wagner
3. Rogers Hornsby
4. Ty Cobb
2,3,4 very close. I could flip flop
5. Eddie Collins
6. Tris Speaker
7. Lou Gehrig
8. Nap Lajoie
9. Joe Jackson- he would have hammered the ball for another 5 years
10. Jimmy Foxx
11. Arky Vaughan-way underrated
12. George Davis- ditto
13. Mickey Cochrane
14. Bill Dickey- Gotta get catchers in there somewhere They don't always show their value in stats. Cochrane and Dickey were pretty close. I could take either.
15. Frank Frisch
16. Bobby Wallace
17. Cap Anson
18. Joe Cronin
19. Ed Delahanty
20. 50 guys could take this spot.

Pitchers
1. Walter Johnson
2. Cy Young
3. Pete Alexander
4. Christy Mathewson
5. Lefty Grove
6. Kid Nichols
7. Carl Hubbell
8. Dazzy Vance
9. Addie Joss
10. Mordecai Brown

Probably left out out some greats and will have to edit

[Shoele$$]

IMO I think a more fair way to rank players is Dead Ball Era and Pre WWII Live Ball era. Too many things changed after 1920 in favor of the batters, hence the obvious sudden explosion in home runs.

Dead Ball Era Batters:
1.) Ty Cobb
2.) Honus Wagner
3.) Joe Jackson
4.) Tris Speaker
5.) Nap Lajoie
6.) Eddie Collins
7.) Sam Crawford
8.) Zack Wheat
9.) Willie Keeler
10.) Home Run Baker

Dead Ball Pitchers:
1.) Walter Johnson
2.) Christy Mathewson
3.) Eddie Plank
4.) Grover Alexander
5.) Cy Young
6.) Mordecai Brown
7.) Ed Walsh
8.) Chief Bender
9.) Rube Waddell
10.) Addie Joss

[Sean]

This is a great topic. It reminds me of how I used to argue with my father about the merits of Cobb (his choice) and Ruth. He passed away four years ago, so I'll have to argue with some of you instead.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Honus Wagner
3. Ty Cobb (I've read many articles and never saw anyone praise his defense).
4. Walter Johnson
5. Oscar Charleston (Buck O'Neil told me he was the best he ever saw).
6. Lou Gehrig
7. Lefty Grove
8. Josh Gibson
9. Joe Dimaggio (his best years were all pre-WWII).
10. Jimmie Foxx
11. Christy Mathewson
12. Tris Speaker
13. Eddie Collins
14. John Henry Lloyd
15. Cy Young
16. Rogers Hornsby
17. Napoleon Lajoie
18. Grover Cleveland Alexander
19. Ed Delahanty
20. Satchell Paige
21. Mickey Cochrane
22. Arky Vaughn
23. Kid Nichols
24. Shoeless Joe Jackson
25. Sam Crawford
26. Carl Hubbell
27. Dizzy Dean
28. Zack Wheat
29. Mordecai Brown
30. Mike Donlin (Sentimental pick. He's my favorite T206 player. I always like drunken Irishmen).

[Joem36]

Where would Home Run Baker fit?

[GaryPassamonte]

It seems like the first 29 years of major league baseball virtually didn't exist when looking at the lists.

[goodtricks]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

It seems like the first 29 years of major league baseball virtually didn't exist when looking at the lists.

I was just about to mention this.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Joem36

Where would Home Run Baker fit?

I don't have Baker on my list, though he is a better player than Donlin. It's just that Donlin is my favorite.

[goodtricks]

Great lists so far! I'll do my best to force rank/compile what people have posted so far and add to the OP tonight. Then we can continue to debate/revise.

Keep'em comin!

[mattsey9]

Originally Posted by Joem36

Where would Home Run Baker fit?

I've always viewed Baker as a very good player who went into God-mode for four years and little more.

But what a four years it was...

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mattsey9

I've always viewed Baker as a very good player who went into God-mode for four years and little more.

But what a four years it was...

Hi Mike, and hello to Otis as well. I think Baker was the best third baseman ever prior to 1950, when it seemed to be regarded as a primarily defensive position (like shortstop). After Al Rosen and Eddie Mathews it came to be seen as a hitters position and almost all the best third basemen are from post 1950.
This is the only position where you can't go back before WWII and find at least one or two of the all time greats who played the position IMHO.

[mattsey9]

Originally Posted by Sean

Hi Mike, and hello to Otis as well. I think Baker was the best third baseman ever prior to 1950, when it seemed to be regarded as a primarily defensive position (like shortstop). After Al Rosen and Eddie Mathews it came to be seen as a hitters position and almost all the best third basemen are from post 1950.
This is the only position where you can't go back before WWII and find at least one or two of the all time greats who played the position IMHO.

Hello, Sean. Hope all is well.

Definitely the best third baseman before 1950 before the sluggers came along, and that warrants his HOF status. Not sure I'd have him on my top 30 list though. I guess I'd better actually do one and find out.

[obcbobd]

Great topic, would have to give quite a bit of thought to 2-20, but without question Ruth is #1, comparing his hitting (OPS, OPS+, there's more to hitting than batting average) to Cobb, its not even close.

[Paul S]

Exciting topic. 40 replies before I had a chance to even see this thread! I like the posters who have already named their top 30, ranked or not. However, before we get into debates about ranking top 3, top 5, etc., (and that's fun)shouldn't we know the players we are dealiing with? Can I be so bold to suggest everyone just list their 30 players? Then tally the names and the ones that appear most are the list. If one of my players is not on it, tough luck for me. Then we can post our ranked lists and go from there.
As far as players on the cusp like Williams and Joe D, I say they're fair game, Let the people speak. My guess is that they won't even make it in the first cut anyway, due to the bias of board members, myself included.
Anyway, that's my 3 cents.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Those are good points, but even factoring in the league differences, plus the extra years Cobb played, Ruth still comes out ahead in WAR (160 to 144). But then Ruth also posted a 19.1 Pitching WAR, which gives him a total of 179. So Ruth outdistances Cobb by a pretty good margin.

Let me also say that Ruth had a World Series OPS of 1.211, while Cobb's was a miniscule .668. Talk about coming up small in the bigtime! If that's your definition of "small ball", then Cobb's a perfect fit.

Again, different eras so I still feel like were comparing apples to oranges, but I will indulge your WS point. Look at the guys who batted around Ruth in the order and those who batted around Cobb. It takes a whole team to win. Look at all those other HOFers on the Yankees! Had Ruth been the only superstar on his team like Cobb was, he never would have seen one pitch to hit.

[mattsey9]

Rather than just list the top 30, I went with building a team. 2 at each infield position, five outfielders, 10 pitchers and five wildcards for my top 30 list.

Ruth is my clear #1, I'll list my guys by position:

Catchers

Mickey Cochrane
Josh Gibson

First Basemen

Lou Gehrig
George Sisler

Second Basemen

Rogers Hornsby
Eddie Collins

Shortstops

Honus Wagner
John Henry Lloyd

Third Basemen

Home Run Baker
Judy Johnson

Outfielders

Babe Ruth
Ty Cobb
Tris Speaker
Mel Ott
Oscar Charleston

Pitchers

Kid Nichols
Cy Young
Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Three-Finger Brown (Got to pick the local boy!)
G.C. Alexander
Lefty Grove
Satchel Paige
Martin Dihigo
Victor Starffin

Wildcards

Jimmie Foxx
Nap Lajoie
Cap Anson
Joe Jackson
Charlie Gehringer

Fun exercise. I look forward to the debate.

[MVSNYC]

Mike- killer list! i like the way you broke it down.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Eras don't matter if the players' accomplishments are compared to each players' individual performances throughout the league(s) in each respective year(s). For example, Ruth's 1921 season - who was close and how much was the difference? Cobb's best season - same question....The same can be done for an entire decade or career.

[mattsey9]

Originally Posted by conor912

Again, different eras so I still feel like were comparing apples to oranges, but I will indulge your WS point. Look at the guys who batted around Ruth in the order and those who batted around Cobb. It takes a whole team to win. Look at all those other HOFers on the Yankees! Had Ruth been the only superstar on his team like Cobb was, he never would have seen one pitch to hit.

Sam Crawford and Harry Heilmann say hello! There wasn't a team full of them like some of the great Yankees clubs, but Cobb wasn't on an island.

[SushiX37]

Originally Posted by Clutch-Hitter

Rich,

If you weren't kidding, how could you possibly reach that conclusion? It would be a reach to throw Babe out of 1st slot in an all-time context IMO. Very interested in hearing your thoughts.... Thanks

I wasn't kidding at all. Most of my reasoning has already been written here by others. Ruth is a solid third in my book. I do like the idea of splitting pitchers and hitters too. If we did that, Cy Young would edge Matty...but not by much.

Great topic! It's been fun to follow.

Rich

[wolf441]

My one comment would be that had the color barrier been broken thirty years sooner, we might be talking Oscar Charleston as the greatest of all time.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by mattsey9

Sam Crawford and Harry Heilmann say hello! There wasn't a team full of them like some of the great Yankees clubs, but Cobb wasn't on an island.

You got my point.

Nice list, btw. I'd make a couple personal preference changes but but theres nothing to argue with there (except your #1 )