Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

So a defense attorney doesn't have a right to refuse a case (if they know their client is guilty)?

Which leads me back to my original question. Why is it ok for a defense attorney to represent someone they know is guilty because that's "their job," but it's not ok for Brent to do his job? And don't give me an answer from some legal point of view. What is morally right, Peter? Isn't the truth that in either case, it's really just about the money?

I see nothing morally wrong with representing a guilty person who is entitled under our system of government to representation. If lawyers shunned guilty or notorious clients, that system would fall apart.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I see nothing morally wrong with representing a guilty person who is entitled under our system of government to representation.

Thanks, Peter. That's all I wanted to hear. In that event, you're just doing what you were paid to do. I don't have a problem with that. But I do find it a little hypocritical when Brent is doing what people have paid him to do, yet people are criticizing it.

In either case (lawyer or Brent), that's their job. They're getting paid to perform a service that they have offered.

I don't like getting a speeding ticket, but that's the cops job.
I don't like getting my car towed when it's illegally parked, but that's the tow truck driver's job.
I could go on, but people either get it or they don't.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Thanks, Peter. That's all I wanted to hear. In that event, you're just doing what you were paid to do. I don't have a problem with that. But I do find it a little hypocritical when Brent is doing what people have paid him to do, yet people are criticizing it.

In either case (lawyer or Brent), that's their job. They're getting paid to perform a service that they have offered.

I don't like getting a speeding ticket, but that's the cops job.
I don't like getting my car towed when it's illegally parked, but that's the tow truck driver's job.
I could go on, but people either get it or they don't.

brent certainly appears to be doing a lot more than that!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

brent certainly appears to be doing a lot more than that!

All of my comments are based on the assumption that Brent is in no way involved in any doctoring. If he is, then shame on him and my opinion quickly changes.

I still have yet to see anybody address PSA's involvement in the card doctoring.

[benjulmag]

Ideal World

1. There is full disclosure of what was done to the card, without any pretense to give such "work" a definition.

2. The sole purpose of a slab is to opine that the card is authentic and to describe what was done to the card without concluding whether such work fits into the category of conservation or alteration, and that all numerical grades will be eliminated.

Real World

1. People buy the slab, and once it is slabbed, what was done to the card becomes irrelevant.

2. IMO all T206 10's have been trimmed.

3. IMO the overwhelming majority of T206 8's and 9's have been worked on.

4. The cover card of the hobby has been trimmed and would grade an "A" if taken out of the slab and resubmitted.

5. To my knowledge, the founder of PSA has not recanted his view that because he is one of the very few people who has seen said cover card out of the slab, his opinion that the card was not trimmed is correct, regardless that the person who trimmed the card has admitted such and went to prison in part because of such admission.

6. To almost everyone in this hobby, points 2, 3, 4 and 5 are irrelevant.

7. This entire discussion of "altered" versus "conserved" as a practical matter is irrelevant because regardless what one calls it, if the card gets slabbed with a numerical grade, mission accomplished -- to most people in this hobby the end justifies the means.

8. The notion of paying multiples more for a 10 than a 9 is my definition of insanity.

9. That PWCC came into being with its business model was inevitable.

10. At some future point PWCC's business model will be looked upon with the same awe and respect that PSA's set registry now is.

Conclusion

1. I feel very fortunate I got started in the hobby when cards had no value, which allows me to continue to collect as a hobby and for fun.

2. It felt good to vent.

[Leon]

Finally there is a well reasoned lawyer in this thread.

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Ideal World

1. There is full disclosure of what was done to the card, without any pretense to give such "work" a definition.

2. The sole purpose of a slab is to opine that the card is authentic and to describe what was done to the card without concluding whether such work fits into the category of conservation or alteration, and that all numerical grades will be eliminated.

Real World

1. People buy the slab, and once it is slabbed, what was done to the card becomes irrelevant.

2. IMO all T206 10's have been trimmed.

3. IMO the overwhelming majority of T206 8's and 9's have been worked on.

4. The cover card of the hobby has been trimmed and would grade an "A" if taken out of the slab and resubmitted.

5. To my knowledge, the founder of PSA has not recanted his view that because he is one of the very few people who has seen said cover card out of the slab, his opinion that the card was not trimmed is correct, regardless that the person who trimmed the card has admitted such and went to prison in part because of such admission.

6. To almost everyone in this hobby, points 2, 3, 4 and 5 are irrelevant.

7. This entire discussion of "altered" versus "conserved" as a practical matter is irrelevant because regardless what one calls it, if the card gets slabbed with a numerical grade, mission accomplished -- to most people in this hobby the end justifies the means.

8. The notion of paying multiples more for a 10 than a 9 is my definition of insanity.

9. That PWCC came into being with its business model was inevitable.

10. At some future point PWCC's business model will be looked upon with the same awe and respect that PSA's set registry now is.

Conclusion

1. I feel very fortunate I got started in the hobby when cards had no value, which allows me to continue to collect as a hobby and for fun.

2. It felt good to vent.

[calvindog]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...290614&page=29

[vintagetoppsguy]

Years of complaining and nothing's changed. Nothing will change. Your frustrations are misdirected. Until you focus on the root of the problem, things will remain the same. But ignore me, just keep doing what you're doing while PWCC keeps profiting.

Profiting While Collectors Complain

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Ideal World

1. There is full disclosure of what was done to the card, without any pretense to give such "work" a definition.

2. The sole purpose of a slab is to opine that the card is authentic and to describe what was done to the card without concluding whether such work fits into the category of conservation or alteration, and that all numerical grades will be eliminated.

Real World

1. People buy the slab, and once it is slabbed, what was done to the card becomes irrelevant.

2. IMO all T206 10's have been trimmed.

3. IMO the overwhelming majority of T206 8's and 9's have been worked on.

4. The cover card of the hobby has been trimmed and would grade an "A" if taken out of the slab and resubmitted.

5. To my knowledge, the founder of PSA has not recanted his view that because he is one of the very few people who has seen said cover card out of the slab, his opinion that the card was not trimmed is correct, regardless that the person who trimmed the card has admitted such and went to prison in part because of such admission.

6. To almost everyone in this hobby, points 2, 3, 4 and 5 are irrelevant.

7. This entire discussion of "altered" versus "conserved" as a practical matter is irrelevant because regardless what one calls it, if the card gets slabbed with a numerical grade, mission accomplished -- to most people in this hobby the end justifies the means.

8. The notion of paying multiples more for a 10 than a 9 is my definition of insanity.

9. That PWCC came into being with its business model was inevitable.

10. At some future point PWCC's business model will be looked upon with the same awe and respect that PSA's set registry now is.

Conclusion

1. I feel very fortunate I got started in the hobby when cards had no value, which allows me to continue to collect as a hobby and for fun.

2. It felt good to vent.

Extremely well put. I feel fortunate I got started in the hobby after cards had value, but at least before the advent of professional grading so that I have some perspective on what makes a card have worth and utility to me personally...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Thanks, Peter. That's all I wanted to hear. In that event, you're just doing what you were paid to do. I don't have a problem with that. But I do find it a little hypocritical when Brent is doing what people have paid him to do, yet people are criticizing it.

In either case (lawyer or Brent), that's their job. They're getting paid to perform a service that they have offered.

I don't like getting a speeding ticket, but that's the cops job.
I don't like getting my car towed when it's illegally parked, but that's the tow truck driver's job.
I could go on, but people either get it or they don't.

Your analogy is utterly tortured. Imagine if seller X (let's make it hypothetical) is accused of conspiring with card doctor Y to commit fraud. Suppose, for the sake of the hypothetical, there was strong evidence X knew Y had altered the consigned cards. Again, hypothetical. Can you imagine X defending on the ground that he was only doing his job? LOL. Now walk back off that limb.

[dariushou]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Thanks, Peter. That's all I wanted to hear. In that event, you're just doing what you were paid to do. I don't have a problem with that. But I do find it a little hypocritical when Brent is doing what people have paid him to do, yet people are criticizing it.

In either case (lawyer or Brent), that's their job. They're getting paid to perform a service that they have offered.

I don't like getting a speeding ticket, but that's the cops job.
I don't like getting my car towed when it's illegally parked, but that's the tow truck driver's job.
I could go on, but people either get it or they don't.

seriously?

Are you really trying to equate Brent/ PWCC selling a known doctored card to unknowing collectors to an attorney representing someone he thinks is guilty of a crime. I'm pretty sure in this example, PWCC could be prosecuted for Fraud.

The difference here is one is criminal behavior and the other is to protect citizens from a tyrant. I can't believe i'm even responding to this post, but it was to off the wall not to. You sound like PWCC's publicist.

In America, you are innocent until proven guilty...and it is embedded into our constitution.

A Guide to the Sixth Amendment
The Sixth Amendment, or Amendment VI of the United States Constitution is the section of the Bill of Rights that guarantees a citizen a speedy trial, a fair jury, an attorney if the accused person wants one, and the chance to confront the witnesses who is accusing the defendant of a crime, meaning he or she can see who is making accusations. The Sixth Amendment was introduced as a part of the Bill of Rights into the United States Constitution on September 5, 1789 and was voted for by 9 out of 12 states on December 15, 1791.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by dariushou

seriously?

Are you really trying to equate Brent/ PWCC selling a known doctored card to unknowing collectors to an attorney representing someone he thinks is guilty of a crime. I'm pretty sure in this example, PWCC could be prosecuted for Fraud.

The difference here is one is criminal behavior and the other is to protect citizens from a tyrant. I can't believe i'm even responding to this post, but it was to off the wall not to. You sound like PWCC's publicist.

In America, you are innocent until proven guilty...and it is embedded into our constitution.

A Guide to the Sixth Amendment
The Sixth Amendment, or Amendment VI of the United States Constitution is the section of the Bill of Rights that guarantees a citizen a speedy trial, a fair jury, an attorney if the accused person wants one, and the chance to confront the witnesses who is accusing the defendant of a crime, meaning he or she can see who is making accusations. The Sixth Amendment was introduced as a part of the Bill of Rights into the United States Constitution on September 5, 1789 and was voted for by 9 out of 12 states on December 15, 1791.

You really need to re-read what you wrote, especially the part I bolded.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

You really need to re-read what you wrote, especially the part I bolded.

The burden of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is on the government in a criminal proceeding, even if the source of that rule is not constitutional. I think Darius' overall point stands.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The burden of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is on the government in a criminal proceeding, even if the source of that rule is not constitutional. I think Darius' overall point stands.

So what is it exactly that you're claiming Brent is guilty of? I don't see it unless I really overlooked it. Help me see it through your lenses.

[Peter_Spaeth]

For purposes of this thread, hubris in attempting to change well-accepted hobby definitions of altered cards.