Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Thanks, Peter. That's all I wanted to hear. In that event, you're just doing what you were paid to do. I don't have a problem with that. But I do find it a little hypocritical when Brent is doing what people have paid him to do, yet people are criticizing it.

In either case (lawyer or Brent), that's their job. They're getting paid to perform a service that they have offered.

I don't like getting a speeding ticket, but that's the cops job.
I don't like getting my car towed when it's illegally parked, but that's the tow truck driver's job.
I could go on, but people either get it or they don't.

brent certainly appears to be doing a lot more than that!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

brent certainly appears to be doing a lot more than that!

All of my comments are based on the assumption that Brent is in no way involved in any doctoring. If he is, then shame on him and my opinion quickly changes.

I still have yet to see anybody address PSA's involvement in the card doctoring.

[benjulmag]

Ideal World

1. There is full disclosure of what was done to the card, without any pretense to give such "work" a definition.

2. The sole purpose of a slab is to opine that the card is authentic and to describe what was done to the card without concluding whether such work fits into the category of conservation or alteration, and that all numerical grades will be eliminated.

Real World

1. People buy the slab, and once it is slabbed, what was done to the card becomes irrelevant.

2. IMO all T206 10's have been trimmed.

3. IMO the overwhelming majority of T206 8's and 9's have been worked on.

4. The cover card of the hobby has been trimmed and would grade an "A" if taken out of the slab and resubmitted.

5. To my knowledge, the founder of PSA has not recanted his view that because he is one of the very few people who has seen said cover card out of the slab, his opinion that the card was not trimmed is correct, regardless that the person who trimmed the card has admitted such and went to prison in part because of such admission.

6. To almost everyone in this hobby, points 2, 3, 4 and 5 are irrelevant.

7. This entire discussion of "altered" versus "conserved" as a practical matter is irrelevant because regardless what one calls it, if the card gets slabbed with a numerical grade, mission accomplished -- to most people in this hobby the end justifies the means.

8. The notion of paying multiples more for a 10 than a 9 is my definition of insanity.

9. That PWCC came into being with its business model was inevitable.

10. At some future point PWCC's business model will be looked upon with the same awe and respect that PSA's set registry now is.

Conclusion

1. I feel very fortunate I got started in the hobby when cards had no value, which allows me to continue to collect as a hobby and for fun.

2. It felt good to vent.

[Leon]

Finally there is a well reasoned lawyer in this thread.

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Ideal World

1. There is full disclosure of what was done to the card, without any pretense to give such "work" a definition.

2. The sole purpose of a slab is to opine that the card is authentic and to describe what was done to the card without concluding whether such work fits into the category of conservation or alteration, and that all numerical grades will be eliminated.

Real World

1. People buy the slab, and once it is slabbed, what was done to the card becomes irrelevant.

2. IMO all T206 10's have been trimmed.

3. IMO the overwhelming majority of T206 8's and 9's have been worked on.

4. The cover card of the hobby has been trimmed and would grade an "A" if taken out of the slab and resubmitted.

5. To my knowledge, the founder of PSA has not recanted his view that because he is one of the very few people who has seen said cover card out of the slab, his opinion that the card was not trimmed is correct, regardless that the person who trimmed the card has admitted such and went to prison in part because of such admission.

6. To almost everyone in this hobby, points 2, 3, 4 and 5 are irrelevant.

7. This entire discussion of "altered" versus "conserved" as a practical matter is irrelevant because regardless what one calls it, if the card gets slabbed with a numerical grade, mission accomplished -- to most people in this hobby the end justifies the means.

8. The notion of paying multiples more for a 10 than a 9 is my definition of insanity.

9. That PWCC came into being with its business model was inevitable.

10. At some future point PWCC's business model will be looked upon with the same awe and respect that PSA's set registry now is.

Conclusion

1. I feel very fortunate I got started in the hobby when cards had no value, which allows me to continue to collect as a hobby and for fun.

2. It felt good to vent.

[calvindog]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...290614&page=29

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...290614&page=29

Whatever you do, don't text. They can come back to bite you and that might not taste as good as some other things.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...290614&page=29

Corey may be right that most people don't care, but for anyone who is bothered by trimming, this thread is quite educational and disturbing on several levels.

[swarmee]

Obviously PSA cares because they're on the hook for reimbursing people when their inability to catch these alterations is proven. And it's obvious they're being targeted because their cards have proven to sell for much higher over time for vintage. The majority of modern cards found so far were in BGS slabs and the majority of the forged T206 autos were in SGC slabs. None of the major grading companies are coming out unscathed.

Has anyone determined the identity of the eBay user whitman111?

Looks like they've recently bought cards from Greg Morris and painthistorian. Will those cards end up trimmed/bleached in slabs?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Years of complaining and nothing's changed. Nothing will change. Your frustrations are misdirected. Until you focus on the root of the problem, things will remain the same. But ignore me, just keep doing what you're doing while PWCC keeps profiting.

Profiting While Collectors Complain

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Ideal World

1. There is full disclosure of what was done to the card, without any pretense to give such "work" a definition.

2. The sole purpose of a slab is to opine that the card is authentic and to describe what was done to the card without concluding whether such work fits into the category of conservation or alteration, and that all numerical grades will be eliminated.

Real World

1. People buy the slab, and once it is slabbed, what was done to the card becomes irrelevant.

2. IMO all T206 10's have been trimmed.

3. IMO the overwhelming majority of T206 8's and 9's have been worked on.

4. The cover card of the hobby has been trimmed and would grade an "A" if taken out of the slab and resubmitted.

5. To my knowledge, the founder of PSA has not recanted his view that because he is one of the very few people who has seen said cover card out of the slab, his opinion that the card was not trimmed is correct, regardless that the person who trimmed the card has admitted such and went to prison in part because of such admission.

6. To almost everyone in this hobby, points 2, 3, 4 and 5 are irrelevant.

7. This entire discussion of "altered" versus "conserved" as a practical matter is irrelevant because regardless what one calls it, if the card gets slabbed with a numerical grade, mission accomplished -- to most people in this hobby the end justifies the means.

8. The notion of paying multiples more for a 10 than a 9 is my definition of insanity.

9. That PWCC came into being with its business model was inevitable.

10. At some future point PWCC's business model will be looked upon with the same awe and respect that PSA's set registry now is.

Conclusion

1. I feel very fortunate I got started in the hobby when cards had no value, which allows me to continue to collect as a hobby and for fun.

2. It felt good to vent.

Extremely well put. I feel fortunate I got started in the hobby after cards had value, but at least before the advent of professional grading so that I have some perspective on what makes a card have worth and utility to me personally...