Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Man there is some serious apathy going on around here. PWCC proposes to adopt a significantly different definition of altered cards than the TPGs and the hobby in general have embraced for decades, and there's less response than if someone complained about shipping costs on an ebay card.

I think what is missing from this thread that is causing the Blowout Forums thread to blow up, so to speak, are some of the examples over there, illustrating, perhaps, what the new PWCC tenets are trying to support. Here are a few of the examples, which you can see in the links Calvindog provided:

[tschock]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I think what is missing from this thread that is causing the Blowout Forums thread to blow up, so to speak, are some of the examples over there, illustrating, perhaps, what the new PWCC tenets are trying to support. Here are a few of the examples, which you can see in the links Calvindog provided:

Even if these aren't the same cards (and I do believe they are), it is obvious from the borders that they have been trimmed. So the conspiracy theorist in me wonders if the tenets are an attempt at one hand washing the other. I mean so what if the card was trimmed? All of what is left is original, right? And the creases, dings, rounded corners weren't part of the original card anyway, right? So we are simply conserving what is left, and why should that be a problem if the TPGs don't catch it (or care)? Maybe not giving total legitimacy to 'trimming as preservation', but at least 'trimming as not a big deal'. I mean really, trimming a painting doesn't change the fact that it is original, does it?

[Leon]

A few days ago before this thread was posted Brent and I spoke for 30 minutes to an hour on the phone (hey Brent). I told him the hobby has already decided what is altering and what isn't. While some agree or disagree, the hobby spoke many years ago. This is old news. While I think Brent wants to have the conversation to get it in the open I doubt any minds will be changed. These tenets are just one person's opinion. I know Brent thinks altering a card is bad but the definition of altering is the issue. Purists think erasing a light pencil mark is altering. It is but not in a bad way, to me. Using water to get dirt off of a card isn't bad in many collectors eyes, mine included. But some see it as altering in a bad way. Brent agreed that pressing a corner to make it larger is bad. Trimming is bad. Flipping down a corner that flipped up, not so bad. We have been talking about this stuff, on this forum, for well over 10 yrs and closer to 20. Minds aren't going to change soon. I am not so sure that only cleaning a card is alteration. For those that think Brent is knowingly doing bad things in the hobby I couldn't disagree more. Sure he is an advertiser here but if I thought he was doing bad stuff he wouldn't be. To each their own. BTW, holding a TPG accountable for something that can't be seen is absurd.

[calvindog]

How do you know what Brent is thinking? Or what he is doing knowingly? From what he tells you?

[ullmandds]

A much less biased discussion is occurring on the blowout forum.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

How do you know what Brent is thinking? Or what he is doing knowingly? From what he tells you?

Maybe because I spoke with him about it? Not really rocket science. How many times have you spoken with him?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Leon

Maybe because I spoke with him about it? Not really rocket science. How many times have you spoken with him?

The same number of times I’ve spoken to Bill Mastro.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

The same number of times I’ve spoken to Bill Mastro.

I agree that you are ignorant.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by calvindog

How do you know what Brent is thinking? Or what he is doing knowingly? From what he tells you?

Just his opinion, and he has his full name in the post!


When new $ enters a hobby, and they get fleeced, usually they never come back.
Kind of silly when a simple search, on Pwccs on site, shows multiples of the same card relisted doctored or not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

A few days ago before this thread was posted Brent and I spoke for 30 minutes to an hour on the phone (hey Brent). I told him the hobby has already decided what is altering and what isn't. While some agree or disagree, the hobby spoke many years ago. This is old news. While I think Brent wants to have the conversation to get it in the open I doubt any minds will be changed. These tenets are just one person's opinion. I know Brent thinks altering a card is bad but the definition of altering is the issue. Purists think erasing a light pencil mark is altering. It is but not in a bad way, to me. Using water to get dirt off of a card isn't bad in many collectors eyes, mine included. But some see it as altering in a bad way. Brent agreed that pressing a corner to make it larger is bad. Trimming is bad. Flipping down a corner that flipped up, not so bad. We have been talking about this stuff, on this forum, for well over 10 yrs and closer to 20. Minds aren't going to change soon. I am not so sure that only cleaning a card is alteration. For those that think Brent is knowingly doing bad things in the hobby I couldn't disagree more. Sure he is an advertiser here but if I thought he was doing bad stuff he wouldn't be. To each their own. BTW, holding a TPG accountable for something that can't be seen is absurd.

Your thoughts on accepting consignments from card doctors? Good thing or bad thing?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Your thoughts on accepting consignments from card doctors? Good thing or bad thing?

Are they in TPG holders? But besides that I don't associate with people who I think are doing bad things in the hobby. So, I guess that answer would be no. But even with a No answer, how hard is it for scammer to give the graded cards to another person to consign for them?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Are they in TPG holders? But besides that I don't associate with people who I think are doing bad things in the hobby.

So if he does associate with them, is that a bad thing?

And please don't play the hiding behind the TPG card, given your knowledge of how many altered cards are in TPG holders.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Your thoughts on accepting consignments from card doctors? Good thing or bad thing?

What would banning a card doctor from consigning solve? They would just consign under a different name or have a friend or relative send the cards in.

As for this alteration vs conservation discussion I don't think the distinction is necessary from a seller or auction house. I'd be more interested to hear what PSA or SGC think.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

What would banning a card doctor from consigning solve? They would just consign under a different name or have a friend or relative send the cards in.

As for this alteration vs conservation discussion I don't think the distinction is necessary from a seller or auction house. I'd be more interested to hear what PSA or SGC think.

So if someone offers me money to do something unlawful or unethical should I take it on the theory that refusing won't do any good because they'll eventually find someone else who will? I really don't follow the argument.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Your thoughts on accepting consignments from card doctors? Good thing or bad thing?

Your thoughts on a defense attorney defending a client they know are guilty? Good thing or bad thing?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Your thoughts on a defense attorney defending a client they know are guilty? Good thing or bad thing?

1. I have no idea how that is relevant here.
2. Our society made a judgment centuries ago that all criminal defendants no matter how evil have the right to the effective assistance of counsel before they can be convicted. So I would say that ensuring that a defendant is afforded his or her constitutional rights is a good thing.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have no idea how that is relevant here.

Then allow me to explain. A defense attorney's job is to represent their client no matter if they know their client is guilty or not. That's their job! Brent's job is to act as a broker to sell cards on consignment on behalf of others. So why do people rake Brent over the coals for doing his job?

You might argue that Brent should disclose any known work done on a card (and I would certainly agree). But if a defense attorney knows his client is guilty, does he disclose that in court?

I think it was a very relevant question.

Or should we all do as I say, not do as I do?

[Rooftop]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1292005

Much better details in this thread

[mq711]

I would think that a high end seller such as PWCC would be a strong advocate against the very practice they are spearheading. Their clients/investors have made purchases based on various factors including high end/low pop cards. When a well centered vintage psa5.5 can be "conserved" into a 8.5, the previous investors of psa8.5s are cheated out of value by the same company they made their purchase from; just doesn't seem fair or a good practice of keeping your customers happy.

[oldjudge]

Other than possibly the PSA 8 Wagner, what doctored cards has PSA KNOWINGLY graded with a number grade? You use plural so I assume you have multiple examples.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Other than possibly the PSA 8 Wagner, what doctored cards has PSA KNOWINGLY graded with a number grade? You use plural so I assume you have multiple examples.

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

But all kidding, and my suspicious nature aside, I think the problem is not corruption but that the doctors are ahead of the graders particularly the junior ones.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Other than possibly the PSA 8 Wagner, what doctored cards has PSA KNOWINGLY graded with a number grade? You use plural so I assume you have multiple examples.

The one over on the postwar side that graded an 8 but had a corner that layered and folded over, supposedly during slabbing. Which PSA folded back and reslabbed, still as an 8. That would be a good start.

In that case, PSA was both the doctor and slabber.


And the response was pretty much crickets.

[frankbmd]

Rereading Brent’s definitions it seems that the ultimate conservation can make the card appear as manufactured, theoretical in PSA 10 pack fresh condition.

However the restored card has no such upper limit, suggesting that a restored card theoretically could receive a PSA 11, or even in rare cases a PSA 12.

If only PSA would award such grades, Brent’s definitions might make sense.



C’mon Man!!!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I think what is missing from this thread that is causing the Blowout Forums thread to blow up, so to speak, are some of the examples over there, illustrating, perhaps, what the new PWCC tenets are trying to support. Here are a few of the examples, which you can see in the links Calvindog provided:

A picture really does tell 1,000 words. I understand everyone's frustrations with PWCC. I really do. And some very good questions have been presented that I think they need to address. But what I truly don't understand is that no one is holding PSA accountable. Are they not to blame too? Why aren't they detecting the work being done on these cards? PWCC is being raked over the coals, but everyone turns a blind eye to PSA's involvement. Why? Why do people continue to submit cards to PSA when they can't do what you're paying them to do? That makes absolutely no sense to me. I'm sorry, everyone can complain all they want to but truly nothing will ever change until the people that you pay to do their job (the TPGs) actually does their job. If PSA did their job, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Things will never change until the TPGs are held accountable. Otherwise this thread is just useless whiney chatter.

One of the first things I educated myself on 35 years ago when I started this hobby was how to tell the difference between a factory cut and a non-factory cut. If I can do it, so can the TPGs.