France/Gabon mask redux, but this time with cards

[raulus]

Revisiting this topic from a few weeks ago, but with a twist.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=341118

Had something kinda sorta similar happen to me just this week, and after I bought it, I thought of this earlier thread.

For those of you who love to malign eBay, this very situation is one of the key reasons as why I’m on eBay, and typically check my saved searches several times each day.

So just the other day, I got a hit on one of my eBay searches for a rare Mays piece that I’ve been questing for, and questing pretty hard for the last several years. It’s the 1960 Mays Bazooka Complete Box. Only one other is known to exist. According to my sources, the one other that was previously known sold pre-pandemic in a private transaction for $15K.

For those not familiar with the 1960 Bazooka complete box issue, Howard wrote an extensive and emotional screed about his 30-year quest to find a Clemente copy here: https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=286980

From what I understand, the one other Mays copy previously known to exist came from the same collection from which Howard purchased his Clemente. I’ve never actually seen the Mays that sold previously, but I suspect it was in better condition than this one. This one on eBay was pretty beat up. But when you’re talking about a piece this rare, condition isn’t nearly as important, because you’ll pay handsomely just to get any copy.

Cutting the other way, the one I found on eBay was for 25 pieces of gum, whereas the other known copy was for “only” 20 pieces of gum. Among the Bazooka cognoscenti, 25 is often rarer and more desirable than 20. Plus any mathematician worth their salt will readily confirm that 25>20.

As somewhat of a pricing analog, several months ago, I purchased a very similar Mays Bazooka Complete Box, but from 1959. Only two of that piece are known to exist, and I paid well into 5 figures for it in a private transaction. The 1959 Complete Box that I purchased was also in pretty rough shape, but better than the one I was looking at on eBay.

So when this one popped up on eBay for $250, I just about spit out my Pepsi. After a few frantic moments verifying that the seller hadn’t mislabeled it, and then making a quick check to ensure that the seller wasn’t just some scammer, I pulled the trigger.

Obviously, valuation on something this obscure can be difficult, since the issue is not well known, and the number of collectors who are into complete bazooka boxes tends to be limited, such that there might only be a few dozen people who are interested and willing to pay a mountain of cash for it. But $250 is a serious bargain. The odds are solid that it’s worth AT LEAST $2,500, and some might argue that estimate needs another zero. Regardless of your valuation, $250 is a major steal, at least 90% below market, and potentially a whole lot more. As I was budgeting for this item, in the off chance it ever came along, I was planning to pay well into 5 figures, so there’s that as well. And if it was in an auction with another motivated bidder, it’s hard to guess when one of us would finally stop bidding like drunken sailors on shore leave. But we definitely wouldn’t stop at $250.

Based on the earlier post, some have suggested that they would inform the seller that it’s worth more, and would take the time to negotiate a price that is more fair. While that might work in the context of a garage sale or a card show, it’s a lot more clunky over eBay with a buy it now price. Trying to convince the seller to let me pay him more would have been folly. While I was busy corresponding with the seller, someone else would almost certainly have snapped it up, with a plan to resell it to me or someone like me at something closer to market. It’s certainly happened before with other items! By trying to be a gentleman, the odds would rise dramatically that I would just end up gifting a large sum of cash to someone else who was less worried about buying it for a bargain. So that wasn’t really an option.

I’m also not going to sell it anytime soon, so it’s not like I’m going to flip it for a big profit. It’s going to be one of the Crown Jewels of my collection and sit right there for the next few decades. So it’s not like I have a big pot of cash coming to me that I can split with the last seller.

I suppose if I wanted to be magnanimous, I could go back to the seller and find a way to send him some more cash. However, as others have noted in the previous thread, that seems like asking for trouble, as the seller might just demand a whole lot more, or decide to stir up all sorts of trouble.

Since context seemed to be important to many of the posters in the previous thread, from what I can tell, the seller is probably a small time dealer, although maybe not a serious full-time dealer. It’s impossible to know the backstory here, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he picked it up for $50 from someone who liquidated their small collection, and was really quite happy to flip it to me for $250. Obviously he didn’t realize what he had, and probably still doesn’t, unless the speed at which it sold makes him wonder whether he should have asked for more, and he decides to go back and do some digging. So by going back to the seller, I would likely cause more angst than by just leaving it alone. Then again, maybe I’m just rationalizing my way into saving myself some solid cash today so that I can spend it on a 1961 Mays complete box, if one ever comes along, since that is the only complete bazooka box now missing from my collection (PSA pop: 0).

So there you go. Clearly some different facts than in the French/Gabonese case. But I guess now we know how I responded when faced with this situation.

Would you have acted differently?

[Exhibitman]

If you offer something for sale and you aren't legally unable to sell it (e.g., subject to a conservatorship, incompetent, a minor, etc.), you have no right to complain when someone pays your price, and the buyer doesn't owe you jack squat in extra compensation. Do. Your. Damn. Homework.

Not the same level but the same idea from the other side: I found a rare item and offered it for sale. Did my research but no comps available. I started the bid low and put in a BIN. Someone snagged it almost immediately. I did my best to figure out a price and offered it to an AH (rejected), so all I could do was pick a price and sell it, and be happy that I made a profit. If you as a seller obsess over wringing out every dollar, you will have a miserable time. What's the old investment saw, pigs get slaughtered?

[bnorth]

Congrats on the amazing Willie Mays pick up. You paid the sellers asking price so just smile and be happy you could add it to your collection.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

...What's the old investment saw, pigs get slaughtered?

I believe it's:

Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.

[Exhibitman]

I thought it was "bulls make money, bears make money, pigs get slaughtered" and was a commentary on allowing greed to overcome a disciplined approach.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As I recall the earlier hypo was would you give someone $100 for a Wagner. Very different. I doubt anyone has an issue with the Mays.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As I recall the earlier hypo was would you give someone $100 for a Wagner. Very different. I doubt anyone has an issue with the Mays.

Just to dig deeper here: What makes the difference? Is it the fact that it’s worth $1M+ and you’re only paying 0.01% of that? Or is it because the Wagner is such a world-renowned piece? Or maybe both?

[JollyElm]

If you have his address, then there's a bit of a middle ground option.

To avoid stirring up BS that will possibly come back to bite you in the ass, wait a bit and then send him an anonymous (no return address, etc.) money order (in whatever amount you feel is warranted) with a note explaining you got an item from him that you feel was well undervalued, so you wanted to do the right thing and give him a little more money.

Sure, you'd probably have to do a bit of research to see if he sells many items for $250 or more, so it wouldn't point to you as being the obvious 'gifter,' but in the end you may feel a little better about the situation.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

Just to dig deeper here: What makes the difference? Is it the fact that it’s worth $1M+ and you’re only paying 0.01% of that? Or is it because the Wagner is such a world-renowned piece? Or maybe both?

With the Wagner you'd be depriving someone of life-changing money and IMO the disparity between purchase price and value is unconscionable. Here, you just got a very good deal on a piece in the scheme of things not that big.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

With the Wagner you'd be depriving someone of life-changing money and IMO the disparity between purchase price and value is unconscionable. Here, you just got a very good deal on a piece in the scheme of things not that big.

Fair enough. And I don't disagree with that analysis.

I do think that you could tweak your facts in a way that the percentages align closer. For example, if you paid $10k for the Wagner, instead of $100.

But there's no getting around the fact that the raw dollars are so significant that it should be shocking to the conscience to acquire a 7-figure piece for even 1% of the value.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

If you have his address, then there's a bit of a middle ground option.

To avoid stirring up BS that will possibly come back to bite you in the ass, wait a bit and then send him an anonymous (no return address, etc.) money order (in whatever amount you feel is warranted) with a note explaining you got an item from him that you feel was well undervalued, so you wanted to do the right thing and give him a little more money.

Sure, you'd probably have to do a bit of research to see if he sells many items for $250 or more, so it wouldn't point to you as being the obvious 'gifter,' but in the end you may feel a little better about the situation.

This is an interesting idea!

I just got the complete box in the mail today, so I happen to have his address handy on the packaging. Looking over the rest of his inventory, most of it is in the $50-100 range, with a few pieces here and there that pop above that level, including a couple of pieces up into 5 figures.

At the same time, just pondering this possibility makes me wonder how I would attempt to pick out a number. Do I give him 50% of my really low estimate? More? Less? I could probably create a gigantic spreadsheet to analyze the options 100 different ways, and still come back to the fact that it's a tough decision to make, if I decide to pursue this approach.

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by raulus

This is an interesting idea!

I just got the complete box in the mail today, so I happen to have his address handy on the packaging. Looking over the rest of his inventory, most of it is in the $50-100 range, with a few pieces here and there that pop above that level, including a couple of pieces up into 5 figures.

At the same time, just pondering this possibility makes me wonder how I would attempt to pick out a number. Do I give him 50% of my really low estimate? More? Less? I could probably create a gigantic spreadsheet to analyze the options 100 different ways, and still come back to the fact that it's a tough decision to make, if I decide to pursue this approach.

Do what you feel is right.

[Rhotchkiss]

You don’t owe this guy anything. He listed his item and named his price. You paid it. End of story.

As an aside, I think giving him anything extra would be salt in the wound - you sold something too cheap. Right now he is probably very happy bc he sold it for what he asked for, got paid, and had a clean transaction

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

With the Wagner you'd be depriving someone of life-changing money and IMO the disparity between purchase price and value is unconscionable. Here, you just got a very good deal on a piece in the scheme of things not that big.

An interesting line of inquiry comes to mind from this comment.

Assuming buyer and seller are people for whom the card is a life-changing windfall, and there is no nefarious conduct on the part of the buyer--let's say the card is in a lot of junk that the buyer purchases at a flea market--why is the seller's quality of life more important than the buyer's? How is that decision determined? Is that a universal rule and if so, how was it determined?

Are the relative circumstances of the buyer and seller relevant? For example, would it change the analysis if the seller was a billionaire and the buyer had a family he was struggling to feed? Would it matter if the seller found the card in the trash and was thrilled to get his asking price for it?

Why is a 10x disparity ($2500 card for $250) OK but a 10,000x not? Is there a bright line demarcation for this and if so, how is it derived? Isn't whatever number we use ultimately just as random as any other?

Isn't this sort of deal precisely the goal of every good capitalist, to make as much money as possible? As a capitalist society, shouldn't we applaud someone who recognizes value and makes a mint?

Is the raw number itself the problem rather than the concept? Say I fish a $50,000 card out of a $0.50 box, is the analysis the same? What if I pay $50,000 for a $1,000,000 card? Is that better?

I remain troubled by the idea that the buyer can purchase the card in an arms' length transaction yet still get called out.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

You don’t owe this guy anything. He listed his item and named his price. You paid it. End of story.

As an aside, I think giving him anything extra would be salt in the wound - you sold something too cheap. Right now he is probably very happy bc he sold it for what he asked for, got paid, and had a clean transaction

I agree. In this case, ignorance can be bliss, or as James Brown sang:

You don't miss nothing you never had
But you miss so much you wish you could get, hah
I guess you can put that together

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I remain troubled by the idea that the buyer can purchase the card in an arms' length transaction yet still get called out.

+1

[rjackson44]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

You don’t owe this guy anything. He listed his item and named his price. You paid it. End of story.

As an aside, I think giving him anything extra would be salt in the wound - you sold something too cheap. Right now he is probably very happy bc he sold it for what he asked for, got paid, and had a clean transaction

Agree 100 pct

[Directly]

So if someone buys a item for say 100.00 at a auction and by chance its discovered to be worth 50,000, should you try to find the auctioneer and return the item. You buy a item at a antique shop for 50.00 and later discover its worth 50,000, should you return the item, saying I'm sorry the items were priced 40,000 plus way too low---if the item was available for purchase to everyone (the general public) and you paid the price, what's the question?

(If its a private transaction the purchase price could be a issue ?)

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by raulus

This is an interesting idea!

I just got the complete box in the mail today, so I happen to have his address handy on the packaging. Looking over the rest of his inventory, most of it is in the $50-100 range, with a few pieces here and there that pop above that level, including a couple of pieces up into 5 figures.

At the same time, just pondering this possibility makes me wonder how I would attempt to pick out a number. Do I give him 50% of my really low estimate? More? Less? I could probably create a gigantic spreadsheet to analyze the options 100 different ways, and still come back to the fact that it's a tough decision to make, if I decide to pursue this approach.

If you do use this option make sure you send from a different zip code so if seller gets curious he can't trace the transaction back to you and maybe raise a ruckus ala the mask...

[KCRfan1]

Leave it alone and do nothing.

You'll overpay for something else along the way so it all balances out.

No need to open a can of worms over this, which is what you're going to do.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

With the Wagner you'd be depriving someone of life-changing money and IMO the disparity between purchase price and value is unconscionable. Here, you just got a very good deal on a piece in the scheme of things not that big.

I would think of it more from the perspective of the Wagner being well known even to people who don't collect.

I only get by in hobbies by knowing what something is or isn't. That someone else can't or won't make the connection or notice a detail is important.
Most of my "good" pieces are buys like this one, a better item that a seller just didn't know something about it.

Some are just too obscure for a dealer to bother with. The one time I did mention it was a dealer I consider more of a friend after almost 40 years.
I mentioned one of his dollar postcards was probably a bit special and should be more. He told me that I should just buy it if I thought it was better. So I did, and looking a couple things up it turns out I was right. (Not a super expensive item, but cool)

[StraightRaceCards]

Bottom line:

If people are selling on eBay, they better do their homework first.

Congrats on a great deal!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Harliduck]

First off...great piece...following your Mays collection here on Net54 has been fun and cool to see you add that...


I will echo the others, leave it alone. I say that as I have been on the other side of this coin...not as drastic, but enough to where I wish I didn't just didn't know, ignorance would have been bliss. I also collect/restore classic cars. I had bought a classic 60s car and was making my parts list...when I noticed I had a part in perfect shape I didn't want or need. I never really sell anything as I save all parts, even old ones I won't use just in case, but figured I could part with this to help pay for the new list. I listed it for what I thought was a fair price with an "OBO"...it sold in 1 minute for full price...and the ebay buyer was the parts dealer I was going to buy from! I pm'd him and asked him how bad did I screwed up...at first he wouldn't answer until he had tracking...haha...but I convinced him I would obviously honor the sale, then he told me it was worth 15x's that wholesale. Lesson learned...but prior to that with no knowledge I would have been stoked for the full price buy. Sounds silly...but...it's true and now I have a funny story to tell friends with the caveat I wish I didn't know...


Again, love the Mays box, cool to even see it!