France/Gabon mask redux, but this time with cards

Exhibitman · #1 10-17-2023, 12:37 PM

If you offer something for sale and you aren't legally unable to sell it (e.g., subject to a conservatorship, incompetent, a minor, etc.), you have no right to complain when someone pays your price, and the buyer doesn't owe you jack squat in extra compensation. Do. Your. Damn. Homework.

Not the same level but the same idea from the other side: I found a rare item and offered it for sale. Did my research but no comps available. I started the bid low and put in a BIN. Someone snagged it almost immediately. I did my best to figure out a price and offered it to an AH (rejected), so all I could do was pick a price and sell it, and be happy that I made a profit. If you as a seller obsess over wringing out every dollar, you will have a miserable time. What's the old investment saw, pigs get slaughtered?

bnorth · #2 10-17-2023, 12:47 PM

Congrats on the amazing Willie Mays pick up. You paid the sellers asking price so just smile and be happy you could add it to your collection.

Eric72 · #3 10-17-2023, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

...What's the old investment saw, pigs get slaughtered?

I believe it's:

Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.

Exhibitman · #4 10-17-2023, 02:39 PM

I thought it was "bulls make money, bears make money, pigs get slaughtered" and was a commentary on allowing greed to overcome a disciplined approach.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 10-17-2023, 02:42 PM

As I recall the earlier hypo was would you give someone $100 for a Wagner. Very different. I doubt anyone has an issue with the Mays.

raulus · #6 10-17-2023, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As I recall the earlier hypo was would you give someone $100 for a Wagner. Very different. I doubt anyone has an issue with the Mays.

Just to dig deeper here: What makes the difference? Is it the fact that it�s worth $1M+ and you�re only paying 0.01% of that? Or is it because the Wagner is such a world-renowned piece? Or maybe both?

Peter_Spaeth · #7 10-17-2023, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raulus

Just to dig deeper here: What makes the difference? Is it the fact that it’s worth $1M+ and you’re only paying 0.01% of that? Or is it because the Wagner is such a world-renowned piece? Or maybe both?

With the Wagner you'd be depriving someone of life-changing money and IMO the disparity between purchase price and value is unconscionable. Here, you just got a very good deal on a piece in the scheme of things not that big.

raulus · #8 10-17-2023, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

With the Wagner you'd be depriving someone of life-changing money and IMO the disparity between purchase price and value is unconscionable. Here, you just got a very good deal on a piece in the scheme of things not that big.

Fair enough. And I don't disagree with that analysis.

I do think that you could tweak your facts in a way that the percentages align closer. For example, if you paid $10k for the Wagner, instead of $100.

But there's no getting around the fact that the raw dollars are so significant that it should be shocking to the conscience to acquire a 7-figure piece for even 1% of the value.

Exhibitman · #9 10-17-2023, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

With the Wagner you'd be depriving someone of life-changing money and IMO the disparity between purchase price and value is unconscionable. Here, you just got a very good deal on a piece in the scheme of things not that big.

An interesting line of inquiry comes to mind from this comment.

Assuming buyer and seller are people for whom the card is a life-changing windfall, and there is no nefarious conduct on the part of the buyer--let's say the card is in a lot of junk that the buyer purchases at a flea market--why is the seller's quality of life more important than the buyer's? How is that decision determined? Is that a universal rule and if so, how was it determined?

Are the relative circumstances of the buyer and seller relevant? For example, would it change the analysis if the seller was a billionaire and the buyer had a family he was struggling to feed? Would it matter if the seller found the card in the trash and was thrilled to get his asking price for it?

Why is a 10x disparity ($2500 card for $250) OK but a 10,000x not? Is there a bright line demarcation for this and if so, how is it derived? Isn't whatever number we use ultimately just as random as any other?

Isn't this sort of deal precisely the goal of every good capitalist, to make as much money as possible? As a capitalist society, shouldn't we applaud someone who recognizes value and makes a mint?

Is the raw number itself the problem rather than the concept? Say I fish a $50,000 card out of a $0.50 box, is the analysis the same? What if I pay $50,000 for a $1,000,000 card? Is that better?

I remain troubled by the idea that the buyer can purchase the card in an arms' length transaction yet still get called out.

Rhotchkiss · #10 10-17-2023, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I remain troubled by the idea that the buyer can purchase the card in an arms' length transaction yet still get called out.

+1

steve B · #11 10-18-2023, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

With the Wagner you'd be depriving someone of life-changing money and IMO the disparity between purchase price and value is unconscionable. Here, you just got a very good deal on a piece in the scheme of things not that big.

I would think of it more from the perspective of the Wagner being well known even to people who don't collect.

I only get by in hobbies by knowing what something is or isn't. That someone else can't or won't make the connection or notice a detail is important.
Most of my "good" pieces are buys like this one, a better item that a seller just didn't know something about it.

Some are just too obscure for a dealer to bother with. The one time I did mention it was a dealer I consider more of a friend after almost 40 years.
I mentioned one of his dollar postcards was probably a bit special and should be more. He told me that I should just buy it if I thought it was better. So I did, and looking a couple things up it turns out I was right. (Not a super expensive item, but cool)

JollyElm · #12 10-17-2023, 03:08 PM

If you have his address, then there's a bit of a middle ground option.

To avoid stirring up BS that will possibly come back to bite you in the ass, wait a bit and then send him an anonymous (no return address, etc.) money order (in whatever amount you feel is warranted) with a note explaining you got an item from him that you feel was well undervalued, so you wanted to do the right thing and give him a little more money.

Sure, you'd probably have to do a bit of research to see if he sells many items for $250 or more, so it wouldn't point to you as being the obvious 'gifter,' but in the end you may feel a little better about the situation.

raulus · #13 10-17-2023, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyElm

If you have his address, then there's a bit of a middle ground option.

To avoid stirring up BS that will possibly come back to bite you in the ass, wait a bit and then send him an anonymous (no return address, etc.) money order (in whatever amount you feel is warranted) with a note explaining you got an item from him that you feel was well undervalued, so you wanted to do the right thing and give him a little more money.

Sure, you'd probably have to do a bit of research to see if he sells many items for $250 or more, so it wouldn't point to you as being the obvious 'gifter,' but in the end you may feel a little better about the situation.

This is an interesting idea!

I just got the complete box in the mail today, so I happen to have his address handy on the packaging. Looking over the rest of his inventory, most of it is in the $50-100 range, with a few pieces here and there that pop above that level, including a couple of pieces up into 5 figures.

At the same time, just pondering this possibility makes me wonder how I would attempt to pick out a number. Do I give him 50% of my really low estimate? More? Less? I could probably create a gigantic spreadsheet to analyze the options 100 different ways, and still come back to the fact that it's a tough decision to make, if I decide to pursue this approach.

JeremyW · #14 10-17-2023, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raulus

This is an interesting idea!

I just got the complete box in the mail today, so I happen to have his address handy on the packaging. Looking over the rest of his inventory, most of it is in the $50-100 range, with a few pieces here and there that pop above that level, including a couple of pieces up into 5 figures.

At the same time, just pondering this possibility makes me wonder how I would attempt to pick out a number. Do I give him 50% of my really low estimate? More? Less? I could probably create a gigantic spreadsheet to analyze the options 100 different ways, and still come back to the fact that it's a tough decision to make, if I decide to pursue this approach.

Do what you feel is right.

Rhotchkiss · #15 10-17-2023, 06:44 PM

You don�t owe this guy anything. He listed his item and named his price. You paid it. End of story.

As an aside, I think giving him anything extra would be salt in the wound - you sold something too cheap. Right now he is probably very happy bc he sold it for what he asked for, got paid, and had a clean transaction

chalupacollects · #16 10-18-2023, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raulus

This is an interesting idea!

I just got the complete box in the mail today, so I happen to have his address handy on the packaging. Looking over the rest of his inventory, most of it is in the $50-100 range, with a few pieces here and there that pop above that level, including a couple of pieces up into 5 figures.

At the same time, just pondering this possibility makes me wonder how I would attempt to pick out a number. Do I give him 50% of my really low estimate? More? Less? I could probably create a gigantic spreadsheet to analyze the options 100 different ways, and still come back to the fact that it's a tough decision to make, if I decide to pursue this approach.

If you do use this option make sure you send from a different zip code so if seller gets curious he can't trace the transaction back to you and maybe raise a ruckus ala the mask...

KCRfan1 · #17 10-18-2023, 09:25 AM

Leave it alone and do nothing.

You'll overpay for something else along the way so it all balances out.

No need to open a can of worms over this, which is what you're going to do.

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