Ebay seller returned cracked out slab

[steve B]

I'm surprised nobody has really explained the timeline.

Seller to buyer to PSA to buyer ….three trips through the post office, plus time at PSA even giving the benefit of the doubt that the buyer could turn the card around and remail the same day.

And all that happened in one week?
Even with express mail, three days are used up in transit.
Yes, PSA has faster times for higher value items, but does anyone have recent experience with the time it takes to even get logged in?


I just don't see that as probable.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by steve B

I'm surprised nobody has really explained the timeline.

Seller to buyer to PSA to buyer ….three trips through the post office, plus time at PSA even giving the benefit of the doubt that the buyer could turn the card around and remail the same day.

And all that happened in one week?
Even with express mail, three days are used up in transit.
Yes, PSA has faster times for higher value items, but does anyone have recent experience with the time it takes to even get logged in?


I just don't see that as probable.

good point

[steve B]

GAI and SGC slabs do usually leave enough visible to examine a cards edges.
PSA will often block some of the edge of a full size card, undersize should be visible.

I'm not sure about Beckett. It's been a while since I looked at the one or two Beckett cards I have.

Even the Acu-Grade slab shows more than enough edge to tell if a card is trimmed. (Unfortunately for me, or not one of my Delongs is Acu-Grade 7, and it is trimmed. Of course, if it wasn't I wouldn't own it... )

[steve B]

How many threads are there about resubs where a card is a nice 5-6, gets cracked and resubmitted, comes back a 3 gets cracked and resubbed, comes back trimmed, cracked and resubbed and comes back a 7...

Without seeing it close up, I suspect it's worth another try or two at PSA.
Now whether the other two opinions are right, that's a toss up.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by steve B

I'm surprised nobody has really explained the timeline.

Seller to buyer to PSA to buyer ….three trips through the post office, plus time at PSA even giving the benefit of the doubt that the buyer could turn the card around and remail the same day.

And all that happened in one week?
Even with express mail, three days are used up in transit.
Yes, PSA has faster times for higher value items, but does anyone have recent experience with the time it takes to even get logged in?


I just don't see that as probable.

I wondered about that very thing early on in this thread. It doesn't add up to me.

The OP has held back some info. For example, unless I missed it, the person who purchased the card on eBay hasn't been identified. Additionally, the unnamed buyer hasn't come on here (so far as I know) to fill in any details.

So, we're left to wonder, discuss, and piece things together using incomplete information. Along the way, this thread has generated approximately 200 responses. Two opinions have been shared repeatedly:

1. Case was cracked open - the sale should be final
2. Card was altered but sold as near mint - buyer should get a refund

To me, neither position is entirely right or entirely wrong. That is what makes this such a fascinating discussion. It's also what may lead to a most remarkable scenario.

Both buyer and seller can argue that they deserve to keep their money. Ultimately, both of them may get to do just that.

The buyer already got their refund through eBay. The seller can (and likely will) fight that through PayPal or their bank. One possible outcome is this:

Buyer gets to keep their refund
Seller eventually gets paid
At least one company foots the bill as the cost of doing business

And, of course, seller still has the card...we think.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I wondered about that very thing early on in this thread. It doesn't add up to me.

The OP has held back some info. For example, unless I missed it, the person who purchased the card on eBay hasn't been identified. Additionally, the unnamed buyer hasn't come on here (so far as I know) to fill in any details.

So, we're left to wonder, discuss, and piece things together using incomplete information. Along the way, this thread has generated approximately 200 responses. Two opinions have been shared repeatedly:

1. Case was cracked open - the sale should be final
2. Card was altered but sold as near mint - buyer should get a refund

To me, neither position is entirely right or entirely wrong. That is what makes this such a fascinating discussion. It's also what may lead to a most remarkable scenario.

Both buyer and seller can argue that they deserve to keep their money. Ultimately, both of them may get to do just that.

The buyer already got their refund through eBay. The seller can (and likely will) fight that through PayPal or their bank. One possible outcome is this:

Buyer gets to keep their refund
Seller eventually gets paid
At least one company foots the bill as the cost of doing business

And, of course, seller still has the card...we think.

Thank you, Eric!!

While some on these threads have been frightened by this conversation:

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Based on all the information out there at this moment and the proven ineptitude of basically all of the major third-party graders... It is downright scary to me the opinions of many of you that side with the buyer here.

And others have said that an opposing view is evidence of a personality disorder:

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Nothing surprises me anymore. This hobby has some real shocking perspectives from all walks of life. I think it’s mostly mid life crisis personality disorders.
There is truly a mental disorder aspect to the madness. I don’t know how legitimate businesses take any of the alleged claims seriously.

I’m almost embarrassed to call myself a collector these days.
I don’t take a negative stance very much but this instance kind of did it.
Ok rant over.

You, Eric, have nicely, and in a respectful, non-insulting way, summarized this discussion by pointing out that there are two perspectives that each have some validity.

The point of a discussion like this isn't to "win" it, but to share perspectives. When someone says that such a discussion makes them "almost embarrassed to call myself a collector these days", or that the discussion itself is "downright scary" that's disappointing.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Thank you, Eric!!

While some on these threads have been frightened by this conversation:



And others have said that an opposing view is evidence of a personality disorder:



You, Eric, have nicely, and in a respectful, non-insulting way, summarized this discussion by pointing out that there are two perspectives that each have some validity.

The point of a discussion like this isn't to "win" it, but to share perspectives. When someone says that such a discussion makes them "almost embarrassed to call myself a collector these days", or that the discussion itself is "downright scary" that's disappointing.

I agree that this is a weird thread with 2 types.

1) plain and simple the item returned was not the item sold and buyer should not get a refund for returning an altered product.

2) people making all sorts of excuses on why someone can buy an item alter it and return it for a full refund. This one really bafles me but I doubt there is any subject we all agree on.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I agree that this is a weird thread with 2 types.

1) plain and simple the item returned was not the item sold and buyer should not get a refund for returning an altered product.

2) people making all sorts of excuses on why someone can buy an item alter it and return it for a full refund. This one really bafles me but I doubt there is any subject we all agree on.

Ben, if you buy a Rolex watch that has elaborate packaging, open it, and discover fraud, are you saying you cannot return it because it is opened?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Bill, if you buy a Rolex watch that has elaborate packaging, open it, and discover fraud, are you saying you cannot return it because it is opened?

Mike that doesn't even make sense, plus it is totally irrelevant to what really happened.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Mike that doesn't even make sense, plus it is totally irrelevant to what really happened.

Biff,
It is quite similar. Maybe the buyer could've returned the card and added $20 for the cost of the cracked holder. Would that be fair?

[Prof_Plum]

So maybe the question is of what value does the packaging of an item have relative to the actual item value. Clearly you can return many items (watches, electronics, etc) after you've damage the package. In contrast, when it comes to collectibles, the package has actual value and destroying the package reduces the value of said collectible. But somewhere in between is a large gray area.

Perhaps for future GAI sales, one should sell the holder, not the card inside. For example, I have this near mint intact GAI 7 holder for sale, $3000...and I'll throw in the card for free. If the buyer should brake the GAI holder in hopes of getting the card in a PSA holder, he can't ask for his money back because he paid for the intact GAI holder.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Prof_Plum

So maybe the question is of what value does the packaging of an item have relative to the actual item value. Clearly you can return many items (watches, electronics, etc) after you've damage the package. In contrast, when it comes to collectibles, the package has actual value and destroying the package reduces the value of said collectible. But somewhere in between is a large gray area.

Perhaps for future GAI sales, one should sell the holder, not the card inside. For example, I have this near mint intact GAI 7 holder for sale, $3000...and I'll throw in the card for free. If the buyer should brake the GAI holder in hopes of getting the card in a PSA holder, he can't ask for his money back because he paid for the intact GAI holder.

I'm not sure if you are being tongue-in-cheek or not, but actually, I think this is a really good idea and solve the problem. If this was the case, I would totally support the seller's right to not have to accept the return. And in this scenario, the card could be outright counterfeit, not just altered, and it would make no difference.

I find your idea to be an elegant solution. Then it's a clear "buyer beware" deal and both buyer and seller understand this up front. Sort of like buying a grab bag where the contents are unknown at time of purchase.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by Prof_Plum

So maybe the question is of what value does the packaging of an item have relative to the actual item value. Clearly you can return many items (watches, electronics, etc) after you've damage the package. In contrast, when it comes to collectibles, the package has actual value and destroying the package reduces the value of said collectible. But somewhere in between is a large gray area.

Exactly. If I have a Lionel train car from the 1930's and it's in the original package, and I remove it from said package, it devalues the item. Same thing with an unopened Star Wars figurine from 1977. A CGC graded comic book. And a slabbed card.

Originally Posted by t206fanatic

only potentially compelling argument not siding wholly w the seller I've seen is:

do the sellers of cards in crapslabs (non PSA/SGC) have any responsibility for checking to see if the card inside is altered? Peter asked a number of times if the seller had attempted to have the Gehrig crossed over, without response.

So is there now an unwritten rule that no GAI cards are allowed to be sold by anyone going forward, unless the seller gets a second opinion from the Dalai Lama of card grading, PSA?

[mq711]

The seller's listing advises its a GAI 7 but further "opinions" its very rare and NM condition. Thus, even though the buyer brought a listed GAI 7 card the part of the lister's post, that it was in NM condition was determined to be "not as advertised." I think this is where it becomes a hobby gray area.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Exactly. If I have a Lionel train car from the 1930's and it's in the original package, and I remove it from said package, it devalues the item.

And if, in doing so, you discover that several parts are not original but instead modern replicas, some parts are repainted, and so on.... Then what? You just caught a fraudulent item. You're saying you have no recourse?

[Prof_Plum]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Exactly. If I have a Lionel train car from the 1930's and it's in the original package, and I remove it from said package, it devalues the item. Same thing with an unopened Star Wars figurine from 1977. A CGC graded comic book. And a slabbed card. ...

Except these examples aren't the same, which is why I suggested there is a huge gray area when putting a value on the packaging. The Lionel train car and Star Wars figure package was part of the original retail item. The CGC grading and GAI holder are embellishments added after market items.

Adding to the complexity of the issue in this case is the value of the card. I mean, if the slab was merely a GAI 1 or 2 and the buyer broke it before return of the card I doubt there'd be nearly as much discussion. So as I somewhat t.i.c. suggested earlier in the thread, in the future sell the slab, not the card.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve B

I'm surprised nobody has really explained the timeline.

Seller to buyer to PSA to buyer ….three trips through the post office, plus time at PSA even giving the benefit of the doubt that the buyer could turn the card around and remail the same day.

And all that happened in one week?
Even with express mail, three days are used up in transit.
Yes, PSA has faster times for higher value items, but does anyone have recent experience with the time it takes to even get logged in?


I just don't see that as probable.

Maybe I am confused. Ebay says it sold Oct 14th and OP's first post was Nov 7th. That is 3 weeks of time and I am sure all of that could easily happen in 3 weeks.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Maybe I am confused. Ebay says it sold Oct 14th and OP's first post was Nov 7th. That is 3 weeks of time and I am sure all of that could easily happen in 3 weeks.

In post 20 he says time from sale to return was about a week.

So that's also a bit confusing, maybe 2 weeks spent trying to deal with ebay etc?

Or just old like me... Sometimes I'm thinking "I just did that last week" And it was much longer than that

[bnorth]

[QUOTE=steve B;1930194]In post 20 he says time from sale to return was about a week.

So that's also a bit confusing, maybe 2 weeks spent trying to deal with ebay etc?

Or just old like me... Sometimes I'm thinking "I just did that last week" And it was much longer than that[/QUOTE]

I am terrible at that one and it keeps getting worse as I age.

[steve B]

I also make the mistake of replying as I read stuff in order.... which ends up being a bit odd sometimes if I miss a day.

[bigfanNY]

Wow this thread is getting long. And many of the OT hypotheticals bring out many of the issues that we all face as card collectors. But again looking at the facts the OP lists one of the key facts that has been lightly discussed is buyer told the seller that the card was no longer in the Holder and the seller said YES when the buyer asked to return the card. Once he said yes is it ok for him to change his mind? How much help would any of us expect from ebay once we said OK to the return?
I understand that many say any buyer returning any card in any slab that he has removed sets a very dangerous president. But the facts of this situation don't really represent that situation. This was a case where both GAI AND THE SELLER represented the card as near mint. The card was determined to be altered so it was misrepresented. The seller said ok to the return...and now he is unhappy with the result. Those are the facts.
This is not a case where Ebay forced the seller to do anything. They just told him to be careful that he might not get his original card back. But again seller states that he did get his original card back.. So everybody who says rhat the seller got screwed by ebay is just wrong. Seller had a choice to fight this return but chose to accept the return.
So folks tell the seller to call the authorities etc... And say what? I sold a card that I said was near mint that turned out to be Altered then the buyer asked to return the card and get a refund and I told him OK. He returned the card in exactly the condition he said he would return it in and I refunded his money.... I am not a lawyer but where exactly did the seller do anything wrong?
Maybe if the seller had told him he would not give full refund because card was out of the case the buyer would have said ok. We will NEVER KNOW. Because the seller said sure send it back.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Wow this thread is getting long. And many of the OT hypotheticals bring out many of the issues that we all face as card collectors. But again looking at the facts the OP lists one of the key facts that has been lightly discussed is buyer told the seller that the card was no longer in the Holder and the seller said YES when the buyer asked to return the card. Once he said yes is it ok for him to change his mind? How much help would any of us expect from ebay once we said OK to the return?
I understand that many say any buyer returning any card in any slab that he has removed sets a very dangerous president. But the facts of this situation don't really represent that situation. This was a case where both GAI AND THE SELLER represented the card as near mint. The card was determined to be altered so it was misrepresented. The seller said ok to the return...and now he is unhappy with the result. Those are the facts.
This is not a case where Ebay forced the seller to do anything. They just told him to be careful that he might not get his original card back. But again seller states that he did get his original card back.. So everybody who says rhat the seller got screwed by ebay is just wrong. Seller had a choice to fight this return but chose to accept the return.
So folks tell the seller to call the authorities etc... And say what? I sold a card that I said was near mint that turned out to be Altered then the buyer asked to return the card and get a refund and I told him OK. He returned the card in exactly the condition he said he would return it in and I refunded his money.... I am not a lawyer but where exactly did the seller do anything wrong?
Maybe if the seller had told him he would not give full refund because card was out of the case the buyer would have said ok. We will NEVER KNOW. Because the seller said sure send it back.

I dunno? You say PSA "determined" the card to be altered?

I thought these days all that PSA offered was their "opinion?" No guarantees?

So isn't that what GAI/the seller offered? Their "opinion?"

PSA hasn't exactly proven they are capable of detecting alterations as of lately?

They're just "opinions" after all?

Aren't we all entitled to our "opinion?"

[Peter_Spaeth]

The OP said he "accidentally" accepted the return and that he did NOT know at the time the card was no longer in the GAI slab, he only learned that later and that ebay then forced him to accept the return he already had agreed to.

Here are his exact words.
"I accidentally hit accepting return but didn't know at the time the card was cracked out.

The buyer said before it was sent to me on ebay it was no longer in the slab and Ebay said I still had to accept the return."



So how was it an accident?

[pokerplyr80]

Looks like I missed something before writing a comment. Never mind.

[Peter_Spaeth]

At this point, here is how I see all this.

1. The buyer probably forfeited his right to a return when he cracked out the card. I can see the counterarguments, but I would rule against the buyer on this point-- somewhat reluctantly.

2. Ebay should not force the seller to accept the return.

3. The seller's posts have not been a model of clarity, and to me it's not a good look when he doesn't answer pertinent and repeated questions.

4. The seller should identify the buyer.

5. I suspect the seller would have resold the GAI card without disclosure of the PSA review, and if true that bothers me.

6. The whole thing is really a no-win situation for the hobby.

[Mark17]

.

[toolifedave]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Wow this thread is getting long. And many of the OT hypotheticals bring out many of the issues that we all face as card collectors. But again looking at the facts the OP lists one of the key facts that has been lightly discussed is buyer told the seller that the card was no longer in the Holder and the seller said YES when the buyer asked to return the card. Once he said yes is it ok for him to change his mind? How much help would any of us expect from ebay once we said OK to the return?
I understand that many say any buyer returning any card in any slab that he has removed sets a very dangerous president. But the facts of this situation don't really represent that situation. This was a case where both GAI AND THE SELLER represented the card as near mint. The card was determined to be altered so it was misrepresented. The seller said ok to the return...and now he is unhappy with the result. Those are the facts.
This is not a case where Ebay forced the seller to do anything. They just told him to be careful that he might not get his original card back. But again seller states that he did get his original card back.. So everybody who says rhat the seller got screwed by ebay is just wrong. Seller had a choice to fight this return but chose to accept the return.
So folks tell the seller to call the authorities etc... And say what? I sold a card that I said was near mint that turned out to be Altered then the buyer asked to return the card and get a refund and I told him OK. He returned the card in exactly the condition he said he would return it in and I refunded his money.... I am not a lawyer but where exactly did the seller do anything wrong?
Maybe if the seller had told him he would not give full refund because card was out of the case the buyer would have said ok. We will NEVER KNOW. Because the seller said sure send it back.

Return was accepted BEFORE buying advised out of the slab which is noted earlier.
Since return is out if the slab not sure if the same card was returned.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by toolifedave

Return was accepted BEFORE buying advised out of the slab which is noted earlier.
Since return is out if the slab not sure if the same card was returned.

Well that's a new and huge wrinkle since you hadn't raised it before.

If you aren't sure, you should post your best before and after scans/photos and maybe people here can weigh in.

And you should post the name of the buyer so we can offer any insight as to reputation.