After paying their dues, should hobbyists who committed fraud be allowed back ?

[Leon]

I was chatting with some hobbyists last night at dinner., (go figure). The subject came up about letting hobbyists, convicted or fraud in the hobby, be on Net54baseball. I have mixed feelings on it but want to get the forum's ideas. These are people who have already paid their debt to society for what they did. I, for one, definitely believe in 2nd chances but crime within the hobby isn't black and white to me. There have been a few hobbyists denied in the past...
What say ye?

[icurnmedic]

Unfortunately I believe yes, they should be allowed, if they have "paid their debt" . However if someone is currently engaged in nefarious activity, of course the answer is no. This is a tough one and glad I don't have to make the choice.

Leon, great site and many thanks for your wise moderation.

Thomas

[skelly423]

Is there a way to admit them to the forum without BST privileges? If there is, I'm ok with it, but otherwise I'd rather not have them.

[iwantitiwinit]

Absolutely not. Similar to the way an individual in say the finance industry is barred from practicing again after conviction and completion of sentence and/or payment of a fine.

[Pat R]

No not if they committed fraud in the hobby, we've seen more than one person on here say that they were sorry for what they did after they got caught and turn around and do it again.

[oldjudge]

I'm good with a second chance, but only one. Screw up again and you become radioactive.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

As I get older I see more shades of gray than I used to. 10 years ago it would've been "absolutely not." Now I personally know one person I would make an exception for. Of course the more details of the story I've heard, the more I think (and he's never said this himself) that he got set up and screwed over.

Of course if part of their sentencing was that they are never allowed to go into business in the hobby again that might be a different story.

[Bobsbats]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I'm good with a second chance, but only one. Screw up again and you become radioactive.

I agree 100% with Jay

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Pat R

No not if they committed fraud in the hobby, we've seen more than one person on here say that they were sorry for what they did after they got caught and turn around and do it again.

So, if they've paid their debt, there is no acceptance? What, then, is the purpose of paying one's debt?

I say yes, if they were caught, convicted and incarcerated or otherwise served out whatever punishment as a result of judge or jury.

If we engage in speculation that someone is guilty of this or that, based on our own circumstantial evidence, that is different, and the owner/moderator should make the final decision.

If they are incorrigible, repeat offenders, then the answer should clearly be no.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by jingram058

So, if they've paid their debt, there is no acceptance? What, then, is the purpose of paying one's debt?

To fulfill their obligation in the eyes of the law.

Some people will obviously still be wary of recidivism. That can't be blamed.

I remember a recorded jailhouse phone call with one fellow most of us are familiar with. Once his time was served, he stated that he would come back bigger and stronger than ever. While that may be doubtful, would anyone wish to give such a person that opportunity within the confines of this forum? I know how I feel about it.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by jingram058

So, if they've paid their debt, there is no acceptance? What, then, is the purpose of paying one's debt?

I say yes, if they were caught, convicted and incarcerated or otherwise served out whatever punishment as a result of judge or jury.

If we engage in speculation that someone is guilty of this or that, based on our own circumstantial evidence, that is different, and the owner/moderator should make the final decision.

If they are incorrigible, repeat offenders, then the answer should clearly be no.

Well Leon asked about someone that was convicted of fraud in the hobby and there are different types of second chances if you had an employee steal money from you would you give them a second chance to work for you or if someone screwed you in a card sale would you buy from them or sell to them again?

[commishbob]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

Absolutely not. Similar to the way an individual in say the finance industry is barred from practicing again after conviction and completion of sentance and/or payment of a fine.

My thoughts exactly. I have a friend I've known since college who was convicted of participation in some sort of loan kickback scheme. He served some (easy) time and then got his second chance but he's not allowed to work in the finance/banking industry.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

Absolutely not. Similar to the way an individual in say the finance industry is barred from practicing again after conviction and completion of sentance and/or payment of a fine.

I agree with this. At a minimum I would say they should be barred from the bst.

[Mozzie22]

Absolutely Not. Honestly cannot understand how anyone would disagree with this.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Mozzie22

Absolutely Not. Honestly cannot understand how anyone would disagree with this.

And I cannot understand how anyone could possibly hold your viewpoint. It just comes across as remarkably ignorant to me.

Really? Nothing else matters to you? What if this person completely turned their life around and now works for the FBI to help identify fraudsters? What if they no longer buy or sell any cards at all and only want to contribute to discussions to share their hobby knowledge and any lessons they learned from making mistakes in the past? You're really not interested in anything they might have to say? Really?

People who see the world in black & white drive me insane.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by skelly423

Is there a way to admit them to the forum without BST privileges? If there is, I'm ok with it, but otherwise I'd rather not have them.

For practical purposes lets say there is not a way to do this...
.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Leon

For practical purposes lets say there is not a way to do this...
.

If it includes BST, please no. Free speech grounds I get, but the BST is a nice and safe place right now that doesn’t need a bunch of fraudsters thrown in to destroy it and rip a bunch of good people off.

[90feetaway]

I mean anyone not registered can still see posts on the site and be "involved" in that sense just not respond to posts or part B/S/T? I'm comfortable with that.

[Smarti5051]

I feel like Net54 is supposed to be for true fans of the hobby. I don’t see how one that committed fraud in the hobby can be a true fan. How can you intentionally damage the hobby if you have any respect for it?

Also, i am not sure our justice system really meters out penalties that match the harm caused. As a society, obviously there are tradeoffs to what is prosecuted and to what extent in an effort to keep society safe. Unfortunately, these tradeoffs often mean that major breaches of trust in the hobby are given a slap on the wrist, at best. If you commit tax fraud, you may live a life of indentured servitude to make things right. If you counterfeit or trim $2 million in collectables, you might spend 30 days in jail and have to pay back a small fraction of what you stole. Let’s face it, for every $1000 in counterfeit cards that is discovered and provable by a prosecutor, there were likely 5-20x that amount actually sold by the fraudster.

It is bad enough that there are 100s of unidentified criminals to navigate in this hobby. Why let the known wolves back into the chicken coup? Like the old adage goes: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[hockeyhockey]

agree on BST privileges, think that should be earned versus just handed out.

but if you can't restrict that, is there a way to add a tag to these people, so we know who they are? not scarlet letter levels, but certainly good to know who you're buying from or selling to.

[x2drich2000]

Lots of gray areas with this one. If you are going to say no, where do you draw the line? Are we talking just convicted in a court of law (Mastro) or convicted by public opinion (PWCC)? What about those caught committing a crime at a young age and are generally now considered to be among the most trustworthy (Lifson)? How about those that have used the courts to avoid paying debts through bankruptcy (Goldin)?

[Wildfireschulte]

Ha Ha! I figured that Leon was joking with this poll when I voted to let them in without having I read all the comments. The sort of implied premise that there is no one on the board that has previously committed a “crime against the card collecting community” is the joke. It’s sort of like believing that no one in the baseball HOF ever took PED’s. This hobby has always been the Wild West to me which is kind of the sport. Even the smelly catalog guy has made mistakes. I know a guy who has paid his dues, he is a good man, a good family man and better than most and would likely be fun to have on the board.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Leon

I was chatting with some hobbyists last night at dinner., (go figure). The subject came up about letting hobbyists, convicted or fraud in the hobby, be on Net54baseball. I have mixed feelings on it but want to get the forum's ideas. These are people who have already paid their debt to society for what they did. I, for one, definitely believe in 2nd chances but crime within the hobby isn't black and white to me. There have been a few hobbyists denied in the past...
What say ye?

We are often judged by the company we keep.

I voted no. Net54 is a hobby treasure; it truly is a special place. Collectively, its membership has a greater amount of vintage sports card knowledge than the rest of the hobby put together. Generally speaking, the members are honest and respectful. Those who aren't...well, they tend to go away.

Net54 should hold itself to a higher standard than other hobby sites.

[JollyElm]

noooooo!!!!!!!!!!.jpg

[Fred]

Just curious, how does one define "paid their debt to society"? Does this mean that a court of law has determined a perp has met what the court feels is sufficient restitution or incarceration?

What if someone happens to be a victim and they don't feel that the perp "paid their debt" because the victim didn't receive sufficient compensation (or any at all) or the victim just can't get over that feeling of being violated?

This place is supposed to be a haven for hobbyist that truly enjoy pictures of dead guys on card board. If someone violates the trust of hobbyist, should those perps be allowed to interact in this forum (again) and possibly be allowed to become a repeat offender? Isn't that like providing a path to temptation to an ex-offender that thinks they're rehabilitated but might get sucked right back into illicit dealings after a while?

I'm all for second chances but perhaps some guidelines/rules/limitations should be set up to mitigate a chance of a repeat offense. And as has been mentioned, if the ex-perp offends again, then that's it.

How about a new poll, would you rather allow a rehabilitated axe murderer that never cheated a fellow hobbyist to participate on this board or would you rather allow a known card doctor, shill bidder or someone that has committed unfair acts to other hobbyist to participate and interact with the general board population?

Is this a "hypothetical" question to allow ex-offenders on the board?

In any case Leon, it's your board so you'll do as you want but it's nice to know you'd try to get some feedback first.

[Lucas00]

I agree with the idea of allowing a second chance but the persons past hobby crimes and name/username must be noted.

[Lordstan]

Personally, I would leave it up to you Leon. You are the only person currently who can vette people individually to determine their intentions.
A perfect example is a person on the autograph side. I will not call him out, but he has been a huge asset, Imo, helping many many with opinions on certain auto, with level of expertise that is exceptional. I have never seen him offer anything for sale, but I have not seen any behavior that would make me think it would be an issue if he did.
I think the idea that banning people offers any sort of protection is utopian, Imo. We need to be adults and use our common sense to protect ourselves and each other. If it seems to good to be true, it, with rare exception, probably is. The problem in the hobby, and most collectible based hobbies to be fair, that allows for fraud to be so rampant is that "STUFF TRUMPS ALL. " Always has and always will. Maybe some would have the self control to not deal with a specific person, but if a seller has a super rare item, be it a card, auto, book, trophy, jersey, painting, train, and on and on, there will be people lined up who will be willing to buy it and keep them in business. It's how every hobby I am familiar with works.
Imo, if Leon vettes them and feels their presence here is a net positive then giving them a chance is worthwhile, like a One strike and your out rule. If he does not, then don't let them in. If Leon passes them, maybe a probation period where they are not allowed to post things to sell. It could be something attached to their ID that could identify this status. You already have the "Moderator" status, how about "Probation "


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[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

The Stuff Trumps All phenomenon has always been a strange one to me Although I do understand it, it's never been difficult for me to not bid on things that I know were stolen or walk away from a lucrative deal if not treated with proper respect by the other party. Both scenarios have happened more than once, and it was easy to take my money and leave the situations. I don't think myself morally superior to anyone else for doing so; guess I just find it easy to say "No, thanks" knowing another interesting deal will always be around the next corner.

[Republicaninmass]

Must be why 1914 cjs sell for less with Probstein.....

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by BillyCox3

The Stuff Trumps All phenomenon has always been a strange one to me Although I do understand it, it's never been difficult for me to not bid on things that I know were stolen or walk away from a lucrative deal if not treated with proper respect by the other party. Both scenarios have happened more than once, and it was easy to take my money and leave the situations. I don't think myself morally superior to anyone else for doing so; guess I just find it easy to say "No, thanks" knowing another interesting deal will always be around the next corner.

I don't disagree with you as I have walked away many time from deals. The problem is that even if we walk away, there always seems to be someone in line behind us willing to do the deal. Again, the STUFF is what matters to the majority. Lots of rich guys out there want a Jeter signed jersey on their office wall. They have no idea what a Jeter sig looks like. Magically a piece of paper appears with a hologram and fancy printing that says it's real and up on the wall it goes.


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[cornhusker]

...the biggest, mean 'n' ugly 'n' nasty 'n' horrible and all kind of things of them sat next to me on the group W bench and said "Kid, whad'ya get?" I said I didn't get nothing. I had to pay $50 and pick up the garbage. He said "what were you arrested for, kid?" And I said, "littering."

And they all moved away from me on the bench there, and the hairy eyeball and all kind of things, till I said, "and selling doctored baseball cards on the internet". And they came back, shook my hand, And we had a great time on the bench, talking about crime, mother stabbin, and all kinds of groovy things.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by cornhusker

...the biggest, mean 'n' ugly 'n' nasty 'n' horrible and all kind of things of them sat next to me on the group W bench and said "Kid, whad'ya get?" I said I didn't get nothing. I had to pay $50 and pick up the garbage. He said "what were you arrested for, kid?" And I said, "littering."

And they all moved away from me on the bench there, and the hairy eyeball and all kind of things, till I said, "and selling doctored baseball cards on the internet". And they came back, shook my hand, And we had a great time on the bench, talking about crime, mother stabbin, and all kinds of groovy things.

Great post!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by cornhusker

...the biggest, mean 'n' ugly 'n' nasty 'n' horrible and all kind of things of them sat next to me on the group W bench and said "Kid, whad'ya get?" I said I didn't get nothing. I had to pay $50 and pick up the garbage. He said "what were you arrested for, kid?" And I said, "littering."

And they all moved away from me on the bench there, and the hairy eyeball and all kind of things, till I said, "and selling doctored baseball cards on the internet". And they came back, shook my hand, And we had a great time on the bench, talking about crime, mother stabbin, and all kinds of groovy things.

Every year on Thanksgiving.....good ole Alice's..
.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

I don't disagree with you as I have walked away many time from deals. The problem is that even if we walk away, there always seems to be someone in line behind us willing to do the deal. Again, the STUFF is what matters to the majority. Lots of rich guys out there want a Jeter signed jersey on their office wall. They have no idea what a Jeter sig looks like. Magically a piece of paper appears with a hologram and fancy printing that says it's real and up on the wall it goes.


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But there is some sense of schadenfreude when that person gets burned. I seem to recall one village idiot on the 52 bowman musial from pwcc. who subsequently went back and bought pwcc cards which were also trimmed.

Myself, I found a "good deal" from Frank Prisco auctions. He absconded with about 50k from various collectors and never shipped the items. Last time it happened, 10 years prior, he just filed BK and nobody could collect. I'm hoping there is a special place where he will sort 88 donruss commons in his hell loop

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

But there is some sense of schadenfreude when that person gets burned. I seem to recall one village idiot on the 52 bowman musial from pwcc. who subsequently went back and bought pwcc cards which were also trimmed.

Myself, I found a "good deal" from Frank Prisco auctions. He absconded with about 50k from various collectors and never shipped the items. Last time it happened, 10 years prior, he just filed BK and nobody could collect. I'm hoping there is a special place where he will sort 88 donruss commons in his hell loop

Indeed, I recall that buyer celebrating his purchase here with a rather smug air, and telling us how smart he was to review his purchases beforehand with Brent. He did seem somewhat chastened after the card was exposed, but not long afterwards was right back at it.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

But there is some sense of schadenfreude when that person gets burned. I seem to recall one village idiot on the 52 bowman musial from pwcc. who subsequently went back and bought pwcc cards which were also trimmed.

Myself, I found a "good deal" from Frank Prisco auctions. He absconded with about 50k from various collectors and never shipped the items. Last time it happened, 10 years prior, he just filed BK and nobody could collect. I'm hoping there is a special place where he will sort 88 donruss commons in his hell loop

Hey. I never said we were smart. LOL.
Some people just ignore that bad people exist when temptation reaches a certain point. The thrill of the hunt for collectibles is addictive. We have all felt that rush of adrenaline at one point of another. Perhaps it made us buy something a little risky because "what if it's good?" Or perhaps it's made us bid higher than we know we should in an auction because we got caught up in the emotions of the auction. Bad people take advantage of people's vulnerabilities. I am sure most of us have fallen pray to this at one point or another. It happens.

I thought the focus of prison/incarceration, of any type, was punishment and rehabilitation. So, serving their time, means they finished their punishment. Do they deserve indefinite punishment? Is there a chance for rehabilitation or not? . If we believe that someone has served their time, should they not be given a chance to show they are rehabilitated?
Now I am not some pie in the sky romantic that is saying this just to virtue signal. I think that some former bad actors should be given a chance. Again, perhaps probationary after Leon has determined that he believes they would be a net positive for the board. Sometimes, we can learn from those who broke the rules about how they did it and how perhaps we can safeguard ourselves from the next bad guy. Look at a guy like Kevin Mitnick. Was one of the very first computer hackers. He went to jail for 5 years and now is a world renown Cyber Security expert that consults with major corporations and gives lectures. (If you ever want to be really scared watch one of his lectures on youtube and see how easy it is to steal your info)
Ultimately, its a decision for the owner of any group like this to determine their level of comfort.

[cornhusker]

Hope I'm not a hypocrite for leaning NO to this while still advocating for Pete to be allowed eligibility to the HOF.

If you are gonna "screen" membership and don't flag covicted fellons who have negativly impacted your hobby... why screen?

[Bcwcardz]

Just because someone did time for their bad deeds doesn’t mean they changed or learned from it. That’s why we have lots of repeat offenders. Con artists always try to con.
Bruce


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