After paying their dues, should hobbyists who committed fraud be allowed back ?

Peter_Spaeth · #1 11-12-2022, 01:52 PM

It's wrong and dangerous to drive 120 in a 55 MPH zone.

But everybody speeds.

That's your logic. You can't just expand the extreme example to its logical limit and then attack the general principle just because it's an example of it.

Again, I don't see where Travis said it's wrong to buy a card at a bargain price, just because the extreme example he objects to may be an example of buying a card for a bargain.

G1911 · #2 11-12-2022, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's wrong and dangerous to drive 120 in a 55 MPH zone.

But everybody speeds.

That's your logic. You can't just expand the extreme example to its logical limit and then attack the general principle just because it's an example of it.

Again, I don't see where Travis said it's wrong to buy a card at a bargain price, just because the extreme example he objects to may be an example of buying a card for a bargain.

My logic is that the law is 55mph, therefore 56 is speeding and so is 120 and so is 120,000. There may be different degrees of bad or guilt, but none are accepted. Once you cross the line, you are in bad or criminal territory, the degree of bad varies by the circumstances and the gap between right or legal and what was done, but over the line is still over that line. If I tell a judge someone else was going 80 when I was going 75, guess who is still getting a ticket?

So where are we drawing the line? Can I buy a card for half it's value if the seller offers that? 10X?. Last year I bought a card item for less than 1% of what I was offered for it shortly later. Am I morally wrong for getting the piece at a large bargain? Have I committed a wrongful sin? What crime did I commit when doing so? Or is 1% still okay?

I'd really like to see this alleged crime. I'm not aware of it, and am worried that much of the board and myself are now criminals if there are limits in the law on the bargains we are allowed to get in auctions or negotiations.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 11-12-2022, 02:04 PM

I think he meant criminal in a moral or colloquial sense, no of course it is not a crime.

And as to line drawing, slippery slope logic. The fact that it may be hard to draw a line on the slope doesn't make an observation about something at the top of the slope wrong.

G1911 · #4 11-12-2022, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think he meant criminal in a moral sense, no of course it is not a crime.

We'll drop that part of the charge then. Have I committed a *moral crime* when I have bought a card for half it's value? 1/10th? Was I a moral criminal to secure the card for less than 1% of what I was offered within a few weeks of acquisition? Does a seller, who is uninformed but easily could be with a 30 second search engine input, have no obligation to educate themselves and that moral obligation is on the buyer? What is the biggest bargain you've gotten? Do you consider that bargain a moral crime?

If so, how is this worse than Mastro's open fraud, shill bidding, and more?

Peter_Spaeth · #5 11-12-2022, 02:11 PM

Is it moral to sell a bottle of water to someone dying of thirst for $1000?

In your example you were presumably dealing with someone who collected cards, yes?

G1911 · #6 11-12-2022, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Is it moral to sell a bottle of water to someone dying of thirst for $1000?

I would say no, because one is essentially extorting somebody, or being complicit in a death if they do not give in. I am not a lawyer to know if this would be prosecuted as murder in the US, but it is very damn close to it.

In the actual example here, a seller who has done no research, has offered a hobbyist a card at a bargain price.

I know you are clever enough to see that has absolutely nothing to do with your situation here where one is extorting someone for money or they will let them die. Nobody is being killed in the card transaction. Nobody is being extorted. Indeed, it is the 'wronged' party that is proposing the trade in the actual topic, under no threat, danger or duress whatsoever. Come on, you know this is absurdism now.

Nobody was killed when I purchase a bargain

Peter_Spaeth · #7 11-12-2022, 02:20 PM

Right, I was just exploring the limits of transactions at extreme prices, not suggesting it was analagous.

As to your example, the distinction may not ultimately hold up, but I want to distinguish between someone in the hobby who fails to do research, and someone completely outside the hobby who is just ignorant altogether.

View Poll Results: After paying their dues, should hobbyists who committed fraud be allowed back ?
Yes	67	18.56%
No	257	71.19%
I don't care	37	10.25%
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