PWCC green cobb psa 5.5 going through the roof

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by bcornell

I always thought you were on the ball, JC. This just reinforces that

The hobby was never better than from roughly 1999-2005 when eBay hadn't completely botched their platform. A decade later, it's a total mess. We're now subjected to multiple auction houses all with ridiculously high consignor rates - I'm looking at you, everyone over 10% or so. There are almost no new buyers coming into the hobby, almost all of the big buyers gone, and this forum is now about Mantle cards and who can complain more.

Give me the old days, thanks.

Bill

Ah yes,..............give me the days when people referred to themselves in the plural third person. Bill - you get what you put up with, and we hobbyists will abide just about anything. I missed something along the way, I thought we were talking about waterfront properties now.

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Ah yes,..............give me the days when people referred to themselves in the plural third person.

We have a great collection, Mr. Baker, and we have a YouTube video to prove it.

Seriously or not, this forum is in decline. Boot the difficult people, allow frivolous stuff about, for example, George Brett cards because the OP is a "regular poster" (since 6 months ago, if that), lazily complain about eBay (yes, Brian Van Horn, I mean you). It needs the proverbial reboot.

Bill

[kickitup]

Buyers premiums are steep, correct. Sellers fees are steep, correct. But those fees being as high and the independent sellers/auction houses as they are protect each of us from the shill bidding and assets protection strategies many of you complain about here.

If fees were lower, problems far greater than each of you could imagine would certainly exist. If I didn't have to pay my bill when I won something nor did I have to pay a big buyers premium, I would most likely do more "asset protection" as would most others. The fees are high, I agree, but they are most certainly there for a reason. Any auction house that charges less than standard rates would immediately be a HUGE red flag to me and most other large buyers I assume.

Most importantly, these large transaction costs make both buyers and sellers think seriously about transacting. If you are a buyer, you buy hopefully for the long term. If you are a seller, you likely consider the transaction costs in your investment return analysis. The fee structures as they are encourage long term investing rather than short term speculation. Although expensive, the model has sustained the test of time because it works on many levels. It critically encourages collectors and investors alike to make purchases they intend to commit to for long periods of time. By its very nature, this commitment buy the parties to a transaction support prices for our large investments in cardboard.

You might wish for the "good ole days", but trust me, the market fee structure as it is today is exactly what each of us need for the market to function in an orderly and proper fashion.

[bobbyw8469]

Seriously or not, this forum is in decline. Boot the difficult people, allow frivolous stuff about, for example, George Brett cards because the OP is a "regular poster" (since 6 months ago?), lazily complain about eBay (yes, Brian Van Horn, I mean you). It needs the proverbial reboot.

Wait...what?!?!?! OK....I don't have no beef with you, but what you said is asinine.

[asoriano]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Leon, first you'd have to promise not to ban me no matter what I say, under any circumstance. I don't want to end up like Rob Dewolf or Wonka (who is still banned while a host of miscreants on Net 54 are members in good standing).

Wonka was banned?

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by kickitup

If fees were lower, problems far greater than each of you could imagine would certainly exist.

I think I can imagine it. Here's what comes to my imagination - my consignor fees pay the rent and much else for the auction houses. They offer me 0% commissions because they are digging deep into my pocket on the buyer side

Is that the "protection" you're crowing about? By the way, why do you get to post anonymously? Did you get some special dispensation from Leon?

Bill

[bobbyw8469]

Is that the "protection" you're crowing about? By the way, why do you get to post anonymously? Did you get some special dispensation from Leon?

If you took the time to read the whole thread instead of chiming in at the end, you will see his name is out there. Leon posted it for everyone to see. You come across to me as a bitter old man longing for the "good old days". Leave the cardboard alone and get a breath of fresh air. It could do you some good.

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

You come across to me as a bitter old man longing for the "good old days".

More bitter than you'd ever realize. I once lost on an auction or two in (gasp) 2008 and maybe a couple more before that, although my memory fails me.

No beef with you, although I could not possibly care less about people policing eBay.

Bill

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bcornell

Is that the "protection" you're crowing about? By the way, why do you get to post anonymously? Did you get some special dispensation from Leon?

Bill

His name is in post 113 and the forum has been going down for as long as I can remember .

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by Leon

Just answer the questions....

I guess Jeff didn't want to answer the questions and get the immunity stick....off the island?

[kickitup]

Originally Posted by bcornell

I think I can imagine it. Here's what comes to my imagination - my consignor fees pay the rent and much else for the auction houses. They offer me 0% commissions because they are digging deep into my pocket on the buyer side

Is that the "protection" you're crowing about? By the way, why do you get to post anonymously? Did you get some special dispensation from Leon?

Bill

That's EXACTLY what I am saying. You don't sell the card unless it makes sense for you. If you have to pay 20% of the sales price, you are encouraged to buy and sell with a long term perspective. It keeps speculators out and makes people hold assets longer. For example, are you going to buy and sell houses and pay your broker 6% each time over and over again without considering the brokerage? Absolutely not! The fee structures of the auction houses are there for a reason. If you or anyone else doesn't like their fees, don't use them. If you can do it better yourself and maximize your value, go for it! I would argue however that most collectors are far from able to truly maximize the value of their cards like an auction house would. It's clear to me because these auction houses are still in business. If they weren't appreciated or needed, they wouldn't be around.

I spoken enough of my mind for the evening and for a while. Take care guys... I'll check back periodically, but don't expect me to post or contribute often.

Justin

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by Leon

His name is in post 113 and the forum has been going down for as long as I can remember .

Am I actually supposed to go dig that up? What happened to moderation where people had to be accountable?

More posters isn't necessarily worse. But, in this case, it absolutely is.

Bill

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bcornell

Am I actually supposed to go dig that up? What happened to moderation where people had to be accountable?

More posters isn't necessarily worse. But, in this case, it absolutely is.

Bill

No, you don't need to read everything to comment on it.

I dunno, mandatng your full name be in public is being held somewhat accountable. (It's in bold type at the top of every page.) No two people would moderate a forum the same way. There can't be a perfect way in as much as you can't please everyone.

[Mikehealer]

Is Wonka really banned?

[Jantz]

Originally Posted by kickitup

Just like any other auction house where a consignor might call a friend and have his friend bid on an item for him? It is risky to do that, but perfectly legal. As long as the person who wins the item pays for the item in full including auction house fees, it is legal. Risky, but legal.

Why do you believe that it matters or not to buyers if PWCC sells their own private items or if they represent the owners of the cards and charge a fee for their service? Just because PWCC has chosen broker sports cards on ebay and you has a loyal group of buyers does not make them less legitimate. I can assure you Memory Lane, Heritage, SCP and other auction houses have loyal followings as well.

Personally, I use PWCC almost exclusively to purchase items on ebay because I buy all sorts of cards from all sorts of sports and am a busy person. I do not want to spend hours upon hours searching ebay listings looking for items that might or might not be a fit for my collection. I find it very easy to type in PWCC into ebay search and sort what I might be interested in that day. Its very simple and easy for a collector like me to find items this way as compared to searching online forums or contacting friends, past acquaintances or other auction houses who might or might not have what I am looking for at the time.

Any speculation as to what my motives are or why I use certain sellers more than others is pure conjecture and quite frankly a waste of everyone's time. If I am willing to pay more than you, I will win, period. If am am not the highest bidder, I won't win. It is real simple. Some of the folks here that are alleging shilling and bid retractions have not a clue what the 'real story' is are likely just pissed because they don't have a green cobb now and want one at a below market price. But of course, that speculation is conjecture on my part and really doesn't hold any weight.

So yes "as long as I am happy" I will use whoever I want to buy or sell items for me. It saddens me to think that Brent or my reputation is at question here when in reality, it could not be farther from the truth. Collecting cardboard is supposed to be fun...

I do not see any further need to justify my actions here on this board, but some of the folks just need to grow up and worry about their own issues. Stop trying to create conspiracy theories to explain random market fluctuations and record prices. The real reason prices are going up is there are buyers that are willing to pay more for cards than have been paid in the past. When the buyers are outnumbered by the sellers, prices will go down. Its called a 'market' and it is quite simple.

Forgive me for being dumb, but when did it become "perfectly legal" as you put it, to have a friend bid on an item up for auction?

Jantz

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by Jantz

Forgive me for being dumb, but when did it become "perfectly legal" as you put it, to have a friend bid on an item up for auction?

Jantz

8 total posts and seems to have an agenda.

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by bcornell

I always thought you were on the ball, JC. This just reinforces that

The hobby was never better than from roughly 1999-2005 when eBay hadn't completely botched their platform. A decade later, it's a total mess. We're now subjected to multiple auction houses all with ridiculously high consignor rates - I'm looking at you, everyone over 10% or so. There are almost no new buyers coming into the hobby, almost all of the big buyers gone, and this forum is now about Mantle cards and who can complain more.

Give me the old days, thanks.

Bill

I agree with Bill's thoughtful comments, as usual. But, I wouldn't be so hard on this forum, which can reasonably be expected to have its ups and downs. The greatest risk to the forum, in my view, is the risk that faces the hobby generally; that is, whether demand can be maintained for vintage cards once we baby boomers move on, so to speak.

Mark

[bcornell]

It's not all negative. If you're consigning anything, ask for a portion of the buyer's fee. Auction houses are not entitled to stick buyers with ~20% fees. They're all peas in the same pod, offering the same service. I don't care if they issue a catalog or not, if they are upstanding types, etc - it's the same results, over & over. Don't give in.

Bill

[Kenny Cole]

Sigh ....

Jeff defends people who are accused because he took an oath to do so. That doesn't mean he condones what they are alleged to have done, nor does it prohibit him from saying that the alleged offense, in general, is wrong. In fact, I might suggest that he is in a better position to lobby against hobby fraud, having been involved in it first hand (in the sense of defending those accused of committing it, not committing it himself) than some others. Maybe he's more vocal because he has more rubber meets the road experience than many others. Don't know, just sayin ....

Leon, you do a great job at a thankless task. Kind of like herding cats. I don't always agree with you, but I generally do. I have friends, not hobby friends but friends in general, who could (probably justifiably) be accused of lots of things, some of which would probably be warranted. Even if convicted, they would still be my friends and I would visit them in prison. I've had to do that a time or two. So I get that dynamic as well.

This is a forum to talk about cards. Mostly, I like to see threads about cards, the history of cards, research about cards, people who are happy to have landed a card they really wanted, and similar topics. I get that fraudsters have to be outed and discussed, but I have to say that it seems as if those types of accusations have been vastly more prevalent in the last few years than they used to be. I view that as a big negative.

It is completely fair for Jeff or anyone else to raise perceived concerns. It is also completely fair for Leon or anyone else to challenge such an allegation. I don't know what the answer is, but I can honestly say that wading through accusations and recriminations over and over again becomes really tiresome and I think that the message which is meant to be sent sometimes gets lost in the noise on both sides. That's not productive.

With some trepidation, I suggest that you add a dedicated complaint area where people who had bad experiences can explain and those who are thinking about buying from someone can look to see if they have been accused, etc. The accused can respond. The virtue is obviously that folks don't have to parse through tons of emails to figure out whether there's an issue because it is hopefully in one place. Sort of like ebay feedback but hopefully better. Just a suggestion.

Kenny

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by kickitup

Lastly, if the prices I paid were so crazy high for everything, why haven't multiple high quality home run baker t206 cards showed up on eBay ? Why haven't any more high quality PSA green Cobb's surfaced yet as available? Why haven't all those folks with the top notch PSA 8 mantles put them up for auction if these prices really are crazy??

I can tell you why... Because people don't want to sell. Until they do, prices will keep going up... It amazes me that people don't understand that, but that's fine by me because I get to enjoy these cards and make money at the same time while some folks that like to complain and conspire on message boards will be left with nothing but their incorrect assumptions about guys like me.

Welcome to America !

+1. Q. David Bowers used to say in his excellent coin books that "the collector is king," but I'm not sure if he realized the actual nuts and bolts of the "why." The collector is indeed king when it comes to very scarce or rare desirable items, because while value = demand over supply mathematically, the "supply" factor that is relevant is not the number of examples in existence, but instead those that are available. If we start, for example, with 1,000 people going after 50 rare, desirable cards, then the ratio of demand to supply is 20 to one, equating to a certain value. Then let's say that a couple of years down the road, 40 of those collectors attain their cards, tucking them away into their own private collections where they will remain for decades (in the coin hobby, they refer to this as being "in strong hands"). That leaves 960 collectors seeking just the 10 examples that are still available, leaving the demand to supply ratio at 96 to one. Nine more are sold,and held by collectors who are not buying to flip the card, but because they like it and want to keep it, leaving merely one example still available for sale. Our ratio of demand to supply has now risen to 951 to one--anyone think that the price has remained within a country mile of what it was when our ratio was 20 to one?

In reality, the situation is a bit more dynamic--as a substantial portion of the available supply is absorbed by true collectors, and prices begin to dramatically rise, the situation attracts additional attention and demand, causing the demand end of the equation to rise even further. Supply too rises, however, as the rising prices leverage some of those previously sold out of what were intended to be permanent collections--the price has simply gotten too high for some to resist the impulse to cash in. The internet, as well as the number of quality auctions, has accelerated the pace at which the above phenomenon has occurred for the simple reason that you used to either have to attend many, many quality shows or get lucky with an SCD ad in the '90's to find that rare, desirable "unicorn" of a card you'd been seeking for many years. Now, with communications enhanced between buyers and sellers, even the rarest will come to your attention far, far sooner.

Econ 101 in a dynamic nutshell!

Hope you all find your unicorns--I'm putting mine together before too many "big boys" come looking for them!

Larry

[Touch'EmAll]

If everything is legit, this was a great milestone for our hobby. This price appreciation is what we all hope for. And a lesson learned as well - acquire good stuff, the best we can afford. I can't wait for someone to put up a 5.0 T206 green Cobb (well centered) with asking price in the $7-10k neighborhood and see if someone bites. Then we will know more. And will this sale bring up prices on slightly lesser demand cards as well?

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by kickitup

Just like any other auction house where a consignor might call a friend and have his friend bid on an item for him? It is risky to do that, but perfectly legal. As long as the person who wins the item pays for the item in full including auction house fees, it is legal. Risky, but legal.

Why do you believe that it matters or not to buyers if PWCC sells their own private items or if they represent the owners of the cards and charge a fee for their service? Just because PWCC has chosen broker sports cards on ebay and you has a loyal group of buyers does not make them less legitimate. I can assure you Memory Lane, Heritage, SCP and other auction houses have loyal followings as well.

Personally, I use PWCC almost exclusively to purchase items on ebay because I buy all sorts of cards from all sorts of sports and am a busy person. I do not want to spend hours upon hours searching ebay listings looking for items that might or might not be a fit for my collection. I find it very easy to type in PWCC into ebay search and sort what I might be interested in that day. Its very simple and easy for a collector like me to find items this way as compared to searching online forums or contacting friends, past acquaintances or other auction houses who might or might not have what I am looking for at the time.

Any speculation as to what my motives are or why I use certain sellers more than others is pure conjecture and quite frankly a waste of everyone's time. If I am willing to pay more than you, I will win, period. If am am not the highest bidder, I won't win. It is real simple. Some of the folks here that are alleging shilling and bid retractions have not a clue what the 'real story' is are likely just pissed because they don't have a green cobb now and want one at a below market price. But of course, that speculation is conjecture on my part and really doesn't hold any weight.

So yes "as long as I am happy" I will use whoever I want to buy or sell items for me. It saddens me to think that Brent or my reputation is at question here when in reality, it could not be farther from the truth. Collecting cardboard is supposed to be fun...

I do not see any further need to justify my actions here on this board, but some of the folks just need to grow up and worry about their own issues. Stop trying to create conspiracy theories to explain random market fluctuations and record prices. The real reason prices are going up is there are buyers that are willing to pay more for cards than have been paid in the past. When the buyers are outnumbered by the sellers, prices will go down. Its called a 'market' and it is quite simple.

Must be nice. You wouldn't happen to be Alex Rodriguez with all that spare loot would you?

[vintagehofrookies]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I'd be more impressed if any of the last ten bids came from bidders who didn't bid in PWCC auctions 50 to 100 percent of the time. His auctions are just filled with shill bids and any price he gets on a card is suspect.

/thread

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by vintagehofrookies

/thread

i know i have bought items at heritage (before the sales tax in my state came into effect) and sold for 2x more at PWCC and i didn't shill.... so every sale is not suspecti

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

If everything is legit, this was a great milestone for our hobby. This price appreciation is what we all hope for. And a lesson learned as well - acquire good stuff, the best we can afford. I can't wait for someone to put up a 5.0 T206 green Cobb (well centered) with asking price in the $7-10k neighborhood and see if someone bites. Then we will know more. And will this sale bring up prices on slightly lesser demand cards as well?

BINs are not the same as auction.....would be interesting to see what happens in an auction.. psa 4 is for sale here on net54

[Iron Horse]

There is a PSA 4 strong on centering and eye appeal but a very weak 4 based on corners at Goldin auctions at $5400 currently.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

psa 4 is for sale here on net54

12 more days and I'll win it for $1500.

[vintagehofrookies]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

i know i have bought items at heritage (before the sales tax in my state came into effect) and sold for 2x more at PWCC and i didn't shill.... so every sale is not suspecti

your right not every auction is, just the majority, where most of the bidders are at 50% or more bid activity with him

[vintagehofrookies]

also what I dont understand ,for example, is how this (basically) exact same card is at $100 more for pwcc auctions than the other seller's:

PWCC

other seller

[kickitup]

its not the same card, thats why

[vintagehofrookies]

both Cousy signed Rookie, same condition with corner crease, just one is signed in blue and the other black

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by vintagehofrookies

both Cousy signed Rookie, same condition with corner crease, just one is signed in blue and the other black

one of the cards looks much better than the other...whether this is the "scan quality" or not is another story.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

one of the cards looks much better than the other...whether this is the "scan quality" or not is another story.

true

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by vintagehofrookies

both Cousy signed Rookie, same condition with corner crease, just one is signed in blue and the other black

I see a huge difference between the 2.

The PWCC card has much better eye appeal because of less surface wear. It is also way off center and has print registration problems.

The other card is centered much better and is more in focus but is very ugly from the surface wear.

I am not a fan of PWCC and will not buy from them but can easily see why the PWCC card has a much higher bid.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by vintagehofrookies

also what I dont understand ,for example, is how this (basically) exact same card is at $100 more for pwcc auctions than the other seller's:

PWCC

other seller

Aside from the difference between the cards the other seller only has a feedback score of 57. He can't have much of a following and his auctions won't be seen by as many collectors. I think that's a big part of why PWCCs cards tend to go for more. There are a lot of collectors who just search his auctions for cards to bid on.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Aside from the difference between the cards the other seller only has a feedback score of 57. He can't have much of a following and his auctions won't be seen by as many collectors. I think that's a big part of why PWCCs cards tend to go for more. There are a lot of collectors who just search his auctions for cards to bid on.

I really need to see a card that is pretty offcentered to get a record price with pwcc....when you see a super centered card which may not only be for the grade but even for grades higher..theres always a chance of a through the roof bid because of the artistic nature of the card...especially a waterfront property card.

[Beastmode]

"I have friends, not hobby friends but friends in general, who could (probably justifiably) be accused of lots of things.."

Forgive me Kenny, but this is the best line in this entire thread. Feels like a statement Steve Martin would of made in "The Jerk".

[1952boyntoncollector]

I started this thread last year when I thought there was going to be an uptick on Green Cobbs and i had sold a few of them. Then came the PWCC aucttion last year.

The Green Cobb that blew the roof and opened the green cobb craze that was subject to this thread that sold for 15k with pwcc, is now at 15k with HA BEFORE buyers premium.

Guess PWCC is not crazy with prices afterall. There was lots of talk about shilling with PWCC on this card. One more bid and the consignor starts to make serious dough assuming the card didnt change hands since pwcc last year...

http://www.pwccauctions.com/item.php?item_no=1180713


http://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/19...umbnail-071515

[ullmandds]

the cobb ex+? it's a gorgeous card!!!!!

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Leon

I agree with your train of thought on some cards hitting extraordinary levels because of what they are, similar to waterfront property. I have always been fine with paying record amounts for gorgeous cards. I think the best looking specimens do the best over time. If the Green Cobb with the huge borders, shown in this thread, went to auction it too might fetch a record price. Shown all of the time but relevant, I am sure this was a record paid for this E90-1 Young when I got it recently, but it still didn't hit my max bid. Some cards are almost mesmerizing. Those are the ones that get record prices. The PSA 8 Mantle on the bay is that nice too.....

Beautiful card. Is this the card aka the helmet or football cy young?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I started this thread last year when I thought there was going to be an uptick on Green Cobbs and i had sold a few of them. Then came the PWCC aucttion last year.

The Green Cobb that blew the roof and opened the green cobb craze that was subject to this thread that sold for 15k with pwcc, is now at 15k with HA BEFORE buyers premium.

Guess PWCC is not crazy with prices afterall. There was lots of talk about shilling with PWCC on this card. One more bid and the consignor starts to make serious dough assuming the card didnt change hands since pwcc last year...

http://www.pwccauctions.com/item.php?item_no=1180713


http://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/19...umbnail-071515

guess the green cobb craze continues! Funny stuff in this thread as well..