Jim Crandell's personal thread

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Posted By: Dave F

"Thank you Anthony--I think you are one of the few to acknowledge that yet confronted with 1)a guy who admitted he takes creases out of cards and 2)a guy who got it out of him that he did this is totally iognored by the likes of Wonka, BoxingCardGuy, Dave from Alpharetta, Corey and others who ignore this and say I should (not anyone else)put my net worth at risk by having my collection regraded. Corey at least makes coherent arguments--the others act like I am the bad guy and are just outright crappy to me."



Well Jim,
I knew you wouldn't make it too long before you pulled the ever so familiar "others are crappy to me". It continues to be amazing how you can dish it out and keep hitting Doug in the fanny with a bbgun, but let the flood waters come down if someone acts "crappy to you".

Really Jim, same ol, same ol

Dave

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Mike,

I don't get your point. XYZ dealer sells me what he and independent grader agree is a bad card. I ask dealer for refund and he agrees. Are you saying it is now my responsibility to go back to the original grading company? I disagree--I think it is the responsibility of the dealer who sold me the bad card in the first place.

Jim

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I think Jim is right about that last post there... if the seller agrees that the card isn't what it was supposed to be, then the seller get the card back. The seller's recourse is with the person from whom he got the card.

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Posted By: BcD

some of your missive above are logical and reasonable.
However,often you give praise to bad people in the hobby and condemn some of the good ones.You have not been in this hobby long enough to know what they have done apparently and how some of them continue to do these things just with more sophisticated methods than,oh let's say 23 years ago.
I assure you that some of the folks you trust do things you constantly protest which is why I have ridiculed you about having your collection re-evaluated. After considering what I think is your attempt to do damage control from here on out I agree with you now and would not have your collection (if mine) reslabed either.I however would never deny the probability you have restored and trimmed cards in your collection! Anyway,I apologize Jim for giving it to you about the reslabing of your cards and will no longer dispute you on that issue. Please except my apology~
On another note you state Wonka ridicules,tries to embarrass ET and I just want to tell you he is pretty good at it!
Go look at some of his photoshop work! Come on Jim,you got to admit that some of those photos are pretty funny as well.

BcD

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Posted By: MikeU

"Sorry Dan, Alan--not going to do it--if that makes you think the less of me fine--I have addressed this issue hundreds of times. Not one major collector or even mid-sized collector has done this and I am not doing it."

For cleaning up the hobby - one needs a leader, not a follower.

If you actually did this Jim, your number of naysayers would go to zero, guaranteed!

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Posted By: Jason L

a syndicated re-run.

Now, if you ever want to debate card altering and the associated politics, and listen to countless people demand that Jim Crandell submit his entire collection for re-grading, we all have one place to come and chat.

After I'm done here, I'm going to try and find some sports coverage that is free of PED discussions and legal analysts.

Once that ends in frustration, I'm going to go sit in the corner and pound salt.

After that, because I'm sure it will make my wrist sore, I'm going to come back and see if everyone is still yelling at the rain.

By then, it will be bedtime.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Edited, because I'm overcome with grief.

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Posted By: BcD

you play piano?
classical?

I thought you were a bowler?
if your fingers swell in the ball it's got to make playing the piano a bit tougher!


BcD

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Posted By: MikeU

"Re: Jim Crandell's personal thread February 27 2008, 9:02 PM
Mike,

I don't get your point. XYZ dealer sells me what he and independent grader agree is a bad card. I ask dealer for refund and he agrees. Are you saying it is now my responsibility to go back to the original grading company? I disagree--I think it is the responsibility of the dealer who sold me the bad card in the first place.

Jim"

If I were the dealer, I would immediately refund your money. My service to you would be that you would not have to deal with anyone else but me. In the background, I would send the card in for a grade bump and then consign for free (assuming a >$1K card) to Mastro :>)

If I was not your dealer and was speaking to you man to man, I would say, Jim, how in the hell can you speak of cleaning up the hobby for all when you do not help to go after the root cause (grading compnay). In fact, you help facility negligent practices by the grading companies by forcing the onus onto venue holders (dealers, auction houses).

I hope that explains my point better.

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Posted By: MikeU

"Re: Jim Crandell's personal thread February 27 2008, 6:12 PM

I would like to point out that before Jim's thread over a year ago it was not common knowledge that Mastro did work on cards, and thanks to his efforts Doug said they no longer do so. Whether you like his methods or not, Jim has brought about some change and certainly does bring some thought provoking topics to the board.
Since he's agreed not to hijack other threads perhaps the same courtesy could be extended to him on this one."

I again agree 100% with Anthony.

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Posted By: Solomon

"For sake of argument lets say I did $250K of business with XYZ Auction House and I bought a card for $10K that is a PSA 8. I then take it in to show Dave Forman--he looks at it and says this is beyond the shadow of a doubt a trimmed card. The president of the auction house comes to SGC listens to Dave and agrees. So that I will keep doing business in the future with him he writes me a check for $10K. Then he goes to PSA and attempts to get a refund."

That's not a matter of doing what's right - that's a matter of doing what's smart. Anyone in business does this for it's best customers. Anyone who thinks the "little guy" is treated the same as the "major player" in any industry is delusional. I'm buying 200 Toyotas this year. I just got them to warranty an $1100 repair that was borderline. Think it's a coincidence?

The pre-grading era auctions were based solely on the reputation of the individual. Mr Mint (as a convenient example) was the one making the claim the card was MINT, the finest example he'd ever seen, and by implication unaltered. It was Rosen's reputation, no one else. So it would be natural to look to Rosen for a refund. But now, if we saw a 53 Bowman Yogi Berra in Mastro's auction, described as the finest example they've ever seen, and NOT graded - would anyone pay 95% of PSA 9 money? Everyone is going to be screaming the obvious question. So Mastro (et al) offering a PSA 9, you're buying it because PSA says it's a 9, not because of the pseudo-intellectual writeup in the catalog on the American experience of living in 1953. I would then think you should look to PSA for restitution if it's not right. You can use the 2x4 approach of "I spend enough money to not deal with this"...but the price is going to be spending a lot of money in one place. And if PSA refuses to buy it back - 99% of the time it's going to be in the next auction.


As far as the Coach's Corner comparison...it would be the equivalent of Mastro hiding behind using PRO as their grader of choice. How can you even sell the stuff with a straight face? I never could. I don't see how you can equate the good faith basis an auctioneer would put into selling a legitamitely graded/authenticated item, by a major company (PSA, SGC, PSA/DNA, JSA, etc.), vs. pushing crap graded by a fly by night operation.

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Posted By: BcD

he never cared about collecting that's for sure.

BcD

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Posted By: ramram

Fifty years from now, collectors will be laughing at us.

Collectors in the distant future will look for the most visually appealing cards out there. They will have decided that there's been enough nearly undetectible tampering with cards that it's not worth determining what is virgin material anymore and what isn't. Additionally, they'll realize that the "doctored" cards actually look NICER.

No longer will they foolishly leave dirt or pencil marks on the cards. Bleach will be a requirement. Removing a crease here, touching up there, a little bit of cleaning and, hey, they've got a beautiful card.

Collectors will openly seek out the best touch-up artists.

In general, the card collectors will finally catch up to the art world and realize that eye appeal is what really matters!

Rob M.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Rob, I couldn't agree more. I collect antique posters and it is an open fact that damage in the posters are restored. Some of these posters are rarer than any baseball card - and even more expensive -- and no one bats an eye at restoration. Why? Because that's just the way it is. As it will be with baseball cards someday, probably.

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Posted By: 1880nonsports

that's REALLY a super muse......... If it's about the CARD - it's all about the look - if it's about the investment - it's all about someone ELSE'S perceptions....

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

My piano songs are the mello ones .The toughest song I do is by STyx ;" the best of times". DO a little Journey ,AIr Supply, MAnilow, etc....

I find soft songs to ease lifes daily gigs. These soft piano tunes when the notes hit just right, gives good vibes. AFter 9 yrs going back at it. Cds arent enough anymore.

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Posted By: Alan

Dan, I love those bands/artists you mentioned. I love 80's music period.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Rob/Jeff-

very interesting thought...very forward thinking, and as i read your posts, i can actually envision the future you project, and kind of believe you guys are right.

i certainly do not endorse altering cards, but in the future, professional restoration (like in the vintage poster & art world, as you've mentioned), might be commonplace...it really is all about the cards, and the aesthetic.

the IMPORTANT thing, might simply be the fact that the card (underneath any touch-ups, etc) is AUTHENTIC and NOT counterfiet.

it is a little difficult to get my head around this concept, but you guys just might be right...

interesting.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I do not believe that alteration/restoration will be acceptable in baseball cards anywhere within the next 50 years. I doubt the practice of restoration was ever frowned upon in poster collecting or artwork. The practice of cleaning and restoring coins has been frowned upon for eons in the coin collecting world and since the advent of grading it has been frowned upon in the baseball card hobby...I don't remember it even being an issue before PSA came along. You think those guys who pay $5,000 for common 1962 Topps cards in Gem Mint condition are ever going to accept restoration to a baseball card??? When they have millions invested in their collections and some guy can come along and pretty up the same 1962 Topps common for a few bucks and attain the same Gem Mint grade? Nosiree.

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Posted By: BcD

are really hot right now!
Too bad Ole Dorskin's "group"
whenst not see the opportunity there!

BcD

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Dan- let me clarify...

when i was discussing restoration above (which i'm not saying i fully endorse, but was merely intrigued by Rob & Jeff's comments), i was not insinuating that said cards would be put into gem mint holders...

they should still be slabbed "authentic"...or left raw (like Jeff's posters). my intepretation was that these cards would simply be appreciated & respected more and valued higher in the future.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Jim,

Looks like some of those who have admitted to altering for profit and/or accused of selling doctored cards, are planning to clean up the hobby.

No need to fear PCCE is here:

http://www.pcce2008.com/

"In addition to facilitating intimate interaction between collector and collectible source, the PCCE will bring collectible leaders together to enhance the perception of the industry. Most experts agree that the collectibles industry, like most industries, has some negative aspects and a few less than reputable players. But because of the industry's explosive growth, the indiscretions of the few have had a tendency to overshadow the many positive developments overall. The PCCE will function as a quasi think tank hosted by an elite group of collectible leaders on the forefront of the industry's evolution who are actively committed to promoting its new professionalism, integrity and business acumen."


Initially I thought this was a joke. Now...I think it's a joke.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dan, I agree with your concept. And I agree that no one would ever want restoration to be the norm in card collecting. However, I believe that with the prevalance of alteration in the hobby already, collectors at some point will not have a choice on this issue.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Kevin,

Welcome to my thread--have not heard from you in a while.

Integrity? Do you see who some of the dealers are? The indiscretions of a few?

I hope they have a panel that is open to the public and the question is asked about what they have done in card alteration and the questioner should tell them that they are under oath.

Is this comedy?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Kevin,

Wow--that is a very very interesting post on Full Count. If people just told publicly what they knew to be true that would really shake things up.

E-Mail me at home Kevin if you would or I will e-mail you tonight.

You're the best.

Jim

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Posted By: Tim Caravella

As a fairly new collector in the vintage market, I can honestly say I am being turned off really quickly. Is the vintage market in as bad shape as this forum indicates? I love the historical side of both the game and our culture in general, but if there are no honest dealers/grading houses (and of course I know there are some out there somewhere) then why would I consider pumping big dollars into cards that probably have been altered at some point and submitted/passed through the major graders? Damn, this all seems so nasty!!!!

Tim

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Tim,

In my opinion, you should stay away from ungraded carfds unless you are quite sure of their history and be very careful buying graded prewar cards--especially low-to-mid grade ones.

Jim

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Posted By: Dave F

Jim

Now why would you tell someone to stay away from low and midgrade cards? You are pitiful. Are you really that thick-headed Jim?

Dave

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Posted By: Darren

In the pre-war arena I've always had an affinity for the midgrade (Vg to Ex), it just seemed like the logical selection for 80+ year old specimens. While I have the means to go after high grade, I've always stuck to the midgrade...there's something not natural about the super high grades, while there are some that exist, the true examples are rare.

I guess my instinct has protected me to some extent to this ugly side of the hobby.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- telling people to stay away from low to midgrade cards, and ignoring the rampant problems with high grade cards, is irresponsible advice. If you want to continue to believe that only lower grade cards are altered, and the PSA 8's are for the most part fine, you are in a majority of one.

It upsets you that more people aren't taking up your cause, but statements like that alienate everybody, even me. I just don't understand it. You turn a blind eye on anything you want, as long as it serves your belief that what you collect is untainted.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

It seems somewhat counterintuitive to me to regard the cards in the condition one would most likely expect to find 80+ year old cards, which also are the cards with arguably the least to gain from alteration, to be the ones with the highest risk of being altered. That's not to say there are not altered vg-ex cards out there. But for my nickel at least I would be far more cautious purchasing an "8" than a "4". I can also tell you from the vantage of one who has been attending card shows for more than 40 years that I continue to be amazed at the number of high grade (e.g., 8s) cards from certain issues (e.g., T206) I see. In the 60's and 70's when I would attend shows (which in those days before auctions/the internet were the main venue for buying/selling/trading cards) I have no recollection whatsoever of seeing such great numbers of Nr-Mt/Mt vintage cards as I see today. On another thread someone made the observation that it is very unusual to find oversized T206s today. One guess where they all went.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Nothing is untainted--I don't believe I ever said that. I simply gave advice to a novice collector who knows little about vintage cards--I think its smart for a novice collector to first focus on graded cards and then within that I would steer him to the higher grade cards where risk of cards having been "worked on" is less.

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Posted By: barrysloate

And Tim, since you asked a question- I think it is safe to buy lower and mid grade cards that have been graded, but it's always prudent to look at a scan or view them in person before buying. There is much to be enjoyed in the vintage card market so don't be turned off by it.

And welcome to the board.

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Posted By: barrysloate

And I would steer him away from higher grade cards where the risk is significantly greater. Just my two cents from 25 years in the hobby.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Corey,

I respect your historical perspective and its likely some(who knows how many) were trimmed. Some likely came from finds along the way I would think; some part of old-time collections that came on to the market as a result of the tremendous appreciation in psa 8 prewar cards. Didn't the Mastro Auction recently have a lot of high grade cards(Cracker Jacks?) that
were part of an old-timer's collection?

Jim

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

We each have 25 years in the hobby but come to a different conclusion--thats okay.

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Posted By: leon

Sorry to keep quoting you but you really do have a knack for hitting the nail on the head...

"On another thread someone made the observation that it is very unusual to find oversized T206s today. One guess where they all went."

The answer is they are in Crandall's collection residing in 8 holders.....too bad....

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Funny Leon...and in just mine right--not Louchios or Ireland or Spence--and you say this never having seen my cards?

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Posted By: Dave F

Jim,

Louchios or Ireland or Spence aren't coming up with the stupid idea that only low grade cards are altered. I only see you saying such dribble.


Dave

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Posted By: Paul Moss

This thread will surpass the STAT/Morales train OT trainwreck in posts, barring Leon retains his composure and doesn't drop the hammer on Jim as a disruptive influence. You read it here first.

OK, a few observations.

1. I have to disagree with Jim returning graded cards to auction houses years after the fact. The major grading companies have a guarantee in place, and their sole purpose is to stand behind their service in order that trade might occur within the marketplace between buyer and seller at an accepted level thus alleviating the concerns that both parties might have. That's what they get paid for. If any auction house did in fact refund, contrary to their terms and conditions of sale and years after the fact, then I would question the integrity of that house. I realize that we don't live in a perfect world, and the playing field should be level for all buyers who comprehend the rules of the game, but the word would get out sooner or later regarding something of this nature happening to a high roller, and the cumulative effect of the smaller buyers realizing that they've been played for suckers, would far offset anything the auction house had to gain by kissing the ass of the high bucks player. The high rollers come and go like the tides, but the average Joe Collector who plugs away at his passion will always be there. He is the TRUE backbone of the hobby and never overlook that fact.

2. Watch out for low to mid-grade vintage? Oh puhleeze! That is rock upon which the vintage hobby is built upon. They are the most liquid, with a much larger following than any of the same issues in high grade. Give me a raw VG through EX raw, or slabbed 1-6 of any issue, and I know that the card will sell, with competitive bids for whatever the market is at that particular moment. The high grade darlings are sweat-time because all it takes is one of the three guys that are collecting it in that particular high grade to either miss the auction, be in the midst of a cash crunch, or already have the card, and the realized price tanks. High grade issues become "fashionable", and once a couple of the high rollers move on to other issues, the overall high end market for that particular set weakens considerably but the lower grade stuff just keeps on trucking along. Stability is a good thing. These cards are your best bet for being untouched by the doctors and barbers, though they are the raw material in many cases for the high grade darlings. Like these NM-MT altereds started out in the same grade? Huh?

3. ........and while I'm on a roll. The constant paranoia over the number of altered cards in holders. Jesus Christ, it's getting ridiculous. Sure, there a number in major company holders. It's only natural that a few slip through and have slipped through over the years. BUT, the overwhelming majority of cards residing in holders are as described. The grade is correct and the card has not been altered. I'd be more concerned with some of the vintage residing in older holders that wouldn't make the grade today. Some of those T206 8's from the late 90's wouldn't make a 7 by today's tougher grading standards. The same could be said of many other issues.

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Posted By: leon

Very well said.....I not only agree with you 100% but everything you said is common sense to sensible folks....

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Hey Paul,

Good to hear from you--thanks for posting!

Respect your points of view even though different from mine.

Hope you are right on the amount of altered cards in holders.

Lets have a drink next time I am in Houston.

Cheers,

Jim

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Posted By: barrysloate

I too agree with Paul with regard to the liquidity of low to mid grade cards. I sell them every week on ebay and don't have to look too hard to find bidders.

But all the high grade cards that sell for crazy prices on ebay are almost always due to two or more guys building registry sets at the same time. Once one or both are done, prices tank. I've seen it happen many times. It's a very thin market.

My favorite grades are 3 to 6, even have good success with the 2's. No question that is the backbone of the hobby. For every guy building a registry set, there are a hundred buying mid-grade cards and having a great time doing it.

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Posted By: JK

"I would steer him to the higher grade cards where risk of cards having been "worked on" is less."


One of the most self-serving statements I've read and completely counter-intuitive.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

JK,

The reason I say this is talking to dealers who tell me that a lot of this goes on under the radar screen. Nobody suspects a psa 4 could be altered but without the alterations it could be a psa 3 or psa 2.

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Posted By: Dave F

Jim

I have to wonder what color the sky is in your world.

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Posted By: Steve

The reason I say this is talking to dealers who tell me that a lot of this goes on under the radar screen. Nobody suspects a psa 4 could be altered but without the alterations it could be a psa 3 or psa 2.



Jim did it occur to you that maybe they claim this because they are the ones selling to YOU higher end cards?


Just a thought.


Steve

edited: Please do not put more than your name in the "your name" box. Thanks.

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Posted By: Brian

green

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Steve,

Not same ones.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

the person working diligently on the 3 to get it to a 4 reaps what reward?........maybe $50 on a common T206? What about the person taking a 6 or 7 to an 8 or 9. What do they reap? $500, $750, $1000 or way more? Hmm..........seems like a LOGICAL choice as to what space you'd practice your trickery....not in the 3's but in the 6's and 7's.

I know you will fight that point to the death Jim and you say that there are all these people that support your theory on low grade altering but, quite frankly, I've not seen many (if ANY) of them come on here and support that theory. Might be easier to do a little something to a 3 to get it to a 4 than a 6 or 7 to an 8 but if you're a crook, you're going to maximize your return. That's why FEW (if any) $1's and $5's are counterfeited..........

And as to all the high grade T206's out there, I've heard of MANY times where vintage scrapbooks were soaked in bathtubs, pulling out really high grade cards. Unfortuately, I can't find any of those anymore........and, we can argue ad naseum about whether it's right to free the cards from scrapbooks. That's not the point for this thread....maybe Crandall, part 2.



edited to put $ sign in front of 1's and 5's