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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>ramram</b><p>Here you go Jim. No more hijacking. Lots of real estate below!<br /><br />Your welcome,<br />Rob M.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Rob,<br /><br />I have been hijacked more than being the hijacker--remember all the youtube videos.<br /><br />Also I said I was wrong to have hijacked the one thread so early.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>Since this post relates to Jim's concerns I thought it best to post it on his very own thread rather than further adulterate the other threads.<br /><br />I was going through my latest issue of SMR and a bunch of names kept popping up on the Leader Board, to-wit: Scott D. Ireland, Don Louchois, Charles M. Merkel, Peter Garcia, Donald E. Spence and even our own JimB.<br /><br />Now my question is: Where do all of these "Superstars" stand on your effort to "clean up the hobby"? I don't see them posting any support for your claims that there is a widespread problem with altering or doctoring of sportscards. Have you discussed these issues with them? If so are you free to let us know how they feel?<br /><br />Your comments would be appreciated.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Tom Nieves</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />The person that has been attacking you and using the anonymous login of "AndyC88" is Eric Pugh. He apparently has forgotten that he identified himself about 11 months ago in the Verkman 1930 Goudey Ruth thread. <br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1174843895/Steve" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1174843895/Steve</a> <br /><br />I have a screen captured image that I will post if he edits out his info before you get a chance to see it.<br /><br />Tom
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Thank you very much...and the facts remain. He is banned and every post I see of his will be deleted. I hate anonymous trolls.......I hope this guy is proud of himself. It's pretty darn hard to get booted from Net54 but he managed to......
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Thank you Tom.<br /><br />Steve, I would feel like I was violating a confidence if I repeated what any of these gentleman told me in private.<br /><br />Broadly speaking however I think they are aware of card alteration, are concerned about it and the graders ability to stay on top of it but not willing to step up and take a stand.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I don't post much anymore but for those who want to talk about card alterations come here first. I will try to post my thoughts on this thread so as to not enrage the few who don't like that sort of thing.<br /><br />Thanks for setting this up RamRam.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>TFerg</b><p>I find the tales of the seedy side (or alleged seedy side) of the hobby/business rather interesting. As I am a noob to the current hobby/business(and message boards), I haven't heard all this information. I don't participate in these auctions and I have very little interest in pre-war stuff (with 3 cards as the exception) but it is nice to be informed as to what/who to look-out for in the future. I am not taking either side, but I like hearing from both, I'm probably in the minority.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p><br />John<br />(Login wonkaticket) Re: Jay Miller and Doug Allen February 26 2008, 8:08 PM <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Jim;<br /><br />I think Doug answered this awhile back as others have pointed out. Doug it’s a good thing too because I intercepted an email that Jim’s next play was answer the question or the kitten gets it!<br /><br /><br /><br />Perhaps Doug is just holding out for another Pizza party before he answers…maybe you should phrase your question a little more like this.<br /><br />“Dear Doug, are you a senior executive of a dishonest company that pulls fast ones on us simple folk? If so please publicly admit it for me….oh and by the way what do you want on your pie?”<br /><br />Man if this gets out of hand we could have another state of the hobby summit sponsored by Crandall & Dominos! And if theres no resolve in 30 mins everyone gets a free 2 liter Coke!<br /><br />Oh and no need to order cheesy bread, Jim will be there that's enough cheese for everyone.<br /><br />Jeff…too funny attention slut…my how are little troll has grown up.<br /><br />So there are my thoughts Jim its been a wahile since we danced...go ahead get the waterworks ready...Leon is waiting by for your attack whistle.<br /><br /><br />P.S. Jim recently you stated in a thread that you just place a top all bids phone bid with these auction houses, you even said in the same line you trust these guys. So if you trust these guys to bid on your behalf with your money why the witch hunt on pressing creases the latter seems trivial at best. <br />
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I'm still thrilled I get my own thread. The only ones that will read it are people who are interested in serious issues affecting the hobby.<br /><br />Steve,<br /><br />Not sure what all the questions are here. At this meeting Doug was Mr No Comment--not sure why he came as he would not answer the questions???<br /><br />On the auction houses, I do not leave Top All Bids with certain ones. However with others I trust them.<br /><br />Why the witch hunt--I just think card alteration is terrible and people who do this ought to be told so. I am a forgiving sort and if people just admitted to what they had done and pledged to stop that is fine. I believe Doug has stopped but I believe he should answer for collectors the four questions I proposed.<br /><br />
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>Jim:<br /><br />I merely cut and pasted Wonka's post to the other thread. Thought it belonged here on your own thread,<br /><br />Steve
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Steve,<br /><br />Thanks for the thoughtfulness. I was hoping after not hearing anything about him in months that he had gone away but no such luck.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Those hopes rarely come true Jim, for any of us.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>george "bulldog" adams</b><p>would feel insulted by this thread what is ramram`s problem jim is being treated like a animal that pissed on the floor and now has to stay in the garage it is just so wrong especially when the man only wants to discuss important hobby issues that the sheep want to pretend don`t exist. bulldog
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>ramram</b><p>In a sense, maybe he is...but...Jim needs a podium where he can make his comments without disrupting the flow of another thread and, conversely, where others have no reason to take shots at him. Kind of a win-win situation. Jim has a message, he just needs a clean location to deliver it.<br /><br />Rob M.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>George- Jim said he was thrilled to have his own thread. I don't think he's being mistreated or abused in anyway. If he has hobby issues he can state them here and others can respond.<br /><br />I for one agree with him that there are major problems in the industry. I don't always agree, however, with his manner of presenting them.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>I don't think Jim C. is being picked on. (I don't even think that's possible. He'd never stand for it.)<br /><br />He has a valid opinion, with very valid questions. He expresses those opinions forcefully. He was asked, politely, not to take over someone else's thread to express those thoughts. He apologized and agreed. <br /><br />His manner irks some people, so his threads often become contentious. But he is a collector, first and foremost, so his opinions are valued.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Jim chooses to voice these problems every 30 days, and by ruining perfectly good threads to do so. I don't know why Jim just doesn't make the phone call he was invited to make to get these answers that so trouble him. Seems like that would close the fact finding case for Jim, but then he'd have to find something else to get upset about. There is nothing that can be done about any cards in the past that have been doctored. Period.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Dave, <br /><br />I don't want to put words in Jim's mouth, but I think he feels the answers would carry more weight if they came here, rather than over a private phone call. <br /><br />He has more to risk here than most of us. If card altering was commonplace years ago, and many slipped by graders, it will impact his collection more than most. That's why I cut him some slack. He's asking questions that can only hurt him.<br /><br />I realize that although Doug did answer his initial question, that answer opened the door to other questions, which Doug basically said he wouldn't answer. <br /><br />I respect Jim's right to try to get the answers.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>Jim knows how influential this message board is in the hobby/industry.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>george "bulldog" adams</b><p>barry i think jim was using sarcasm when he said he was thrilled maybe i am wrong. bulldog
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>With all due respect how can you say Jim C (hi Jim) isn't out for a witch hunt? I agree that his questions deserve answers. One big issue is that even when he gets the answers he reverts back to the EXACT SAME QUESTIONS. You might want to go read the excerpts that Al C so gracefully pulled from past threads with the EXACT answers to the EXACT questions that Jim C DEMANDED again. To me that borders on badgering. It's like he has a freakin' mental block about his OWN ALTERED CARDS IN PLASTIC. If you answered a question of mine then 3 months later I demanded an answer (publicly) to the same one already answered.....then did it again, I think you would get tired of it. The second biggest issue I have with Jim C is his leading the charge from the rear. He will continue to get very little respect by not putting his proverbial money where his mouth is. Asking everyone to do things he isn't willing to do, with respect to his own altered cards, will never fly very well.....Otherwise, I do think Jim is a passionate collector and does raise some good questions. His delivery isn't very good though....best regards
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>You underestimate Jim C's narcissism......He is always thrilled to be in the spotlight....and I think he is glad to have his own thread too..and I am glad he has one ...no worries about that.....best regards
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Thank you everyone(except for Dave) for the nice comments.<br /><br />I am happy to have my own thread. People who don't care about hobby issues do not have to open this thread and when there is something that is important I will just post it here.<br /><br />Dave, I would dispute the allegation that I regularly ruin perfectly good threads. In fact, I would say it is more vice versa. I apologized twice for jumping into this one and ruining it. I'm sorry but I do not do it regularly.<br /><br />Jim is right on the money. Why have a private conversation where only I get the answers. I am not asking him questions that are about my collection or individual concerns I have. I am asking him quiestions about his company's policies and what they have done in the past. It is in some peoples vested interest on this board to see these questions swept under the rug and we have heard from certain of them. Their style tends to be to criticize or attack me and then change the subject(like why don't I send in my own slabbed cards for regrading). But, the truth has a funny way of coming out and I would bet that as long as Doug avoids answering the tough questions on a public forum that it will hurt his business. Heck, its hurtintg it already.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Oh please Jim. How forgetful you are. It took 15 seconds to find another thread you hijacked not long ago. What does your issues with Doug have to do with Jeff Lichtman's bidding status??? <br /><br />Here is also the link where Doug invited you to call him to discuss your problems (even said for you to get a third party on the phone) and post the results here... have you made that call yet Jim?<br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1202701057/last-1202802705/Jeff+Lichtman+Bidding+Status" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1202701057/last-1202802705/Jeff+Lichtman+Bidding+Status</a>
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>In regards to Leon's comments, I am not asking anyone to do what I will not do--have I asked anyone to break out cards and resubmit--no. Agree with me or not, my goal is to stem the flow of newly altered cards into the hobby.<br /><br />Also in regards to Leon's comment that he has answered my questions this is not really true. As I remember he said I don't alter cards anymore. This opens up a whole host of questions and I asked 4 specific ones here.<br />I also think there is a question about what he is taking out of the cards. Leon's interpretaion(correct me if I am wrong Leon) is that they are tiny wrinkles. My belief by Doug's choice of words is that he has taken creases out of cards that presumably could be 1-2 inches long. Maybe Doug bcan clarify.<br /><br />Lastly, thank you to Leon for saying I have raised some good questions that deserve answers. I agree
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>No Dave and if you would take the time to read you would find that<br /><br />1)I admitted to recently hijacking a thread<br />2)This is something that should be disclosed publicly in my opinion--not on a private call--even with a witness.<br /><br />
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Leon, <br /><br />You, and the rest of the board have a much longer history with Jim C. than I do. I've only been around the board about a year. In another year or two, his style may get to me also. I didn't use the term "witch hunt". I would use the term relentless. <br /><br />The answer that Al cited from Doug addressed issues going forward. Jim has accepted that answer but asked questions looking backward. Doug was pretty clear that he wouldn't address the past. <br /><br />From Al's post: "...neither myself or anyone from my firm will ever engage in the alteration of cards. We will disclose alterations that we note in items that are consigned to us and will continue to scrutinize cards submitted to us that have already been graded by an independant service. I refuse to say anything else on the subject..."<br /><br />I know I don't really have a dog in this fight (no cock fight jokes here.) Most of my cards are still raw. I've never sent any in to be graded. If ALL graded cards were found to be altered, I'd have to deal with 20-30 cards. Jim C. would have much bigger problems. <br /><br />That's why I can't figure out any ulterior motive he might have for forcing this issue. The only possibilities I can come up with are: 1)that it's personal between him and Doug/Mastro or 2)he really just wants the truth. <br /><br />In either case, he's risking the value of his collection. <br /><br />Edited to add: The issue of Jim not wanting to inspect his current cards is puzzling. If he found some that had been altered and they had come from Mastro, his argument would be much stronger. <br /><br /><br /><br />
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Just truth and justice--I barely know Doug Allen.<br /><br />PSA 8 graded card values are doing fine--the market seems to be not focusing on this controversy. <br /><br />
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>If ever there was an example of the adage "no good deed goes unpunished", this would be it. As I recall when Jim C first raised the issue about card alterations, he publicly asked all the major auction houses to respond to the issue. Mastro was one of the very few that did, and to this day except for Barry Sloate participates on this board more than any of its competitors. Doug Allen, as president of Mastro Auctions, point blank responded that his company no longer engages in the practice of prepping cards for grading. I don't think it takes a genius to realize that based on his remarks and by implication, they engaged in the practice previously and that a number of their auction offerings contained cards that were prepped. I also think that if its the case that PSA's and SGC's policies are not to grade such cards if they have knowledge of the prepping, that Mastro did not disclose it to them. I respectfully opine that at this point perhaps a more constructive avenue might be to thank Doug for responding and being a participant on this board, as opposed to continue to hammer him on this issue. Maybe then some other auction houses might be more willing to respond to similar inquiries and be regular participants on this board, to the benefit of all. <br /><br />As to the legitimate concern Jim C might have as to how many of his slabbed cards might be altered, a more efficient way to determine that than asking Doug to precisely quantify how many cards Mastro prepped would be.........
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>JimVB,<br /><br />That edited comment you made is a very interesting question. If I resubmitted PSA-graded cards I won from Mastronet Auctions in the last five years to SGC and SGC found certain ones altered would Doug Allen refund me the current market value of the card??
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Jim-<br /><br />When you decide to place bids in the thousands of dollars on cards through ANY of the auction houses, have you ever took the time to read the disclaimer "NO RETURNS"? Why would you be so pompous as to think Mastro should owe you money on ANY of your trimmed cards? Abesolutely incredible.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Corey,<br /><br />Everyone knows that is your preoccupation but it is of no concern to me.<br /><br />I would not hold my breath waiting fot other auction houses to come on the boards. We are supposed to kiss up to Doug thinking maybe JP Cohen will come on here. You live in a dream world.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think Mastro would have the right to go back to PSA and ask for restitution first. Don't know how it would be resolved though.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Barry-<br /><br />Any card that Jim bought from Mastro, you, Goodwin, etc should not be subjected to being the responsibility of that auction house after Jim owns the card. I've yet to see any auction house's disclaimer saying they would buy back or partially refund any card found to be altered in any way. Jim, like everyone else that bids in auctions knows the rules going in...I guess now he feels he should be owed something for whatever cards he has which are altered. It shouldn't be your responsibilty in the least.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Barry, <br /><br />Interesting point. Mastro would have recourse with PSA. Regardless of who altered the cards, it was PSA who graded them. What has their policy been in the past?
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Dave- I've always said if the hobby is beholden to the grading services (and it is), I can't be responsible if an altered card makes its way into a holder.<br /><br />If it's an obviously trimmed card I will mention in my description that "it appears short, please bid accordingly." But if it is imperceptible, I hold the graders responsible. Some will agree, others disagree, but the graders have to stand behind their service.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- SGC has a strong policy that if they make a mistake they will assume responsibility for it. I'm less familiar with PSA's policy.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />You know that is not how I feel. Let me give you an example.<br /><br />In 1991-92 or around that time when I first sent cards in for grading I had a number of cards I bought raw that were trimmed, recolored or power erased--many I bought over five years ago. The ones where I knew where I got them(and they were still in business) I went back to them asking for a refund and I immediately got one from everyone. It is very easy to prove the card I won was in Mastronet's or any other sellers auction. Isn't it legit that if I do have an altered card among the 25,000-plus graded cards I own and it came from a certain auction house that they reimburse me for it? Especially if Dave Forman can conclusively convince the seller that the card is not legit?
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Jim C,<br /><br />You're expecting Doug Allen to come on this board and publicly (1) aver to altering cards, (2) quantify the number of cards altered and (3) admit to submitting such cards to SGC/PSA without proper disclosure, thereby possibly making his compnay susceptible to liability in the event claim is ever made against those grading companies from the current owners of those now-slabbed cards? And you accuse me of being the one who lives in a dream world?
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Wouldn't that be swell if you could get reimbursed? As I said...the speed bump in your way is the disclaimer that each auction house carries saying sold as is. That isn't just Doug Allen's stance, that is every auction house I know of. <br /><br />I would agree there there is a high percentage of your PSA slabbed pre-war cards that are more than likely altered, but as long as they were slabbed then it isn't Doug's fault. Is it?
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>shane leonard</b><p>"Steve, I would feel like I was violating a confidence if I repeated what any of these gentleman told me in private."<br /><br /><br />Jim,<br />You know I like you, so please don't take this wrong. However, how is it that you can rake over the coals all these dealers and collectors by expecting them to tell you their private conversations or business practices on a open forum when you can't inform us the thoughts of Spence or Luchious? I see you all the time demanding what the conversation was between one collector to another or better yet telling another collector to call you privately to discuss their conversations. I feel you use a lot of us collectors to gain information or find cards for you, but you don't do the same for us.<br /><br />Respectfully,<br /><br />Shane Leonard
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />You are being ridiculous. There is an excellent chance if any major buyer went to an auction house and had concrete proof that a card that was sold to him was altered the auction house would make him whole.<br /><br />You have never seen my cards and have no idea the circumstances under which they were bought but having never had an original thought on these boards you make some wild claim. <br /><br /><br /><br />
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Jim-<br /><br />I don't know the circumstances under which your cards were bought? Your right, maybe i'm missing something. Jim, I'd like to know which major auction houses have crossed through the rule of "no returns" for you. Please educate me. <br /><br /><br />
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Shane,<br /><br />You think its morally right that if another major collector tells me something in confidence that I disclose it on the boards?<br /><br />I am asking dealers to state their business practices--can you site an example where I asked a dealer or collector to repeat a private conversation publicly?<br /><br />I know you are close to Brian and I like Brian too and I think he would tell you we have done a lot of business together.<br /><br />I disagreed with his decision not to answer my questions in a public setting but he made a decision to do what was best for his business. <br /><br />I like you too Shane and look forward to doing more transactions together.<br /><br />Jim
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>First of all isn't it nice that you have your own thread to argue your points in? I am not being sarcastic as I think it's great. <br /><br />I also think you are dead wrong that an auction house will make you whole on a graded card that you bought from them that turns out to be altered. That would be the same as going to ebay to be made whole on the same situation. Auction houses, like ebay, are only a venue. Your recourse is with who got paid to grade it, which is the grading company itself. I am quite sure every single auction house has a rule about this issue and it protects them as it should. They aren't the one who made the mistake (unless there is an extraordinary situation and that is not what we are talking about). regards
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />Superior, Andy Madec, Steve Novella. Others in private sales. Don't think there was a dealer that would not reimburse me for the card even though it had been years. Of course I did a lot of business with these guys and reimbursing me for a few cards was a rounding error.<br /><br />Problem was more came from Spivack & Kraut and The Best of Baseball than anywhere else and the were out of business when I came around looking for them.
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />Thank you--glad we stumbled on a situation that works for all.<br /><br />This is why I disagree with you.<br /><br />For sake of argument lets say I did $250K of business with XYZ Auction House and I bought a card for $10K that is a PSA 8. I then take it in to show Dave Forman--he looks at it and says this is beyond the shadow of a doubt a trimmed card. The president of the auction house comes to SGC listens to Dave and agrees. So that I will keep doing business in the future with him he writes me a check for $10K. Then he goes to PSA and attempts to get a refund.<br /><br />I would maintain that an auction house would likely do that under these circumstances and that it is a good decision to do it.<br /><br />But I may be wrong?
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I agree with your analogy but it's called customer service and is not a requirement. I do it all of the time in business for my best customers. It's called "eating" something to keep the customer happy. If you bought 200k from me and you had a 1k issue with a card of course I am going to refund you...I want you as a customer....But really your recourse should be back to who graded it. Just my opinion.....btw, I think all major auction houses have this policy and most all of them would make an exception for their best customers...but again, those are exceptions in order to keep their best customer their best customers <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ....regards
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Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>martindl</b><p><br />Jim C,<br />I'm confused by some of your seemly contradictory statements/questions. <br /><br />You said "my goal is to stem the flow of newly altered cards into the hobby". Seems reasonable and a good cause. Doug Allen has stated that Mastronet no longer prepares cards for grading. Now you want Doug to state how many cards they did prepare for grading when that was their practice. How would knowing that help stem the flow of new cards? <br /><br />Surely, If Mastronet no longer prepares cards then they have nothing to do with NEWLY altered cards.<br />
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