Here we go yet again -- alleged trimmed and recolored CJs at auction

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by sb1

Coins have had rampant problems as well, with forgeries from S.E. Asia, fake slabs, lasered enhanced Gold coins and many more for the last two decades.

I think this is just something we have to deal with then in the post modern hobby. The desire for high grade cards, (even if not truly high grade) in macho numbered holders has proven that it's going to win out thus far over grading integrity in all cases. I see little incentive for that to change if a small group of collectors on BO and N54 are basically the only ones concerned about it.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I'll pose another question simply out of ignorance, but has this type of problem (the alteration fraud being made worse with TPG's complicit...) ever occurred before in professional grading with stamps or coins? I don't know much about them, but the American Philatelic Society has a pretty lofty reputation. In an organization like that, is it simply because collectors / historians have a louder voice than dealers and those purely in it with the main goal of driving prices higher?

The Philatelic foundation had a problem in the early 80's where one of their computer operators took payments to issue certificates for altered stamps that had been rejected by experts as altered, but he changed the opinion to genuine.

The main person doing the altering was brazen enough to have a vanity plate that read "Stamp MD"

A bunch of firings, criminal charges etc followed by a lot of hard work restored peoples confidence in them.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...069-story.html

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

The Philatelic foundation had a problem in the early 80's where one of their computer operators took payments to issue certificates for altered stamps that had been rejected by experts as altered, but he changed the opinion to genuine.

The main person doing the altering was brazen enough to have a vanity plate that read "Stamp MD"

A bunch of firings, criminal charges etc followed by a lot of hard work restored peoples confidence in them.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...069-story.html

You would need a whole bunch of those plates for cards, I guess they could be sequentially numbered after the CardMD.

[jchcollins]

So again: Does anyone realistically believe that this problem is ever going away in the card hobby? I don't. Not as long as collectibles continue to be worth real money. The incentives just don't align.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

So again: Does anyone realistically believe that this problem is ever going away in the card hobby? I don't. Not as long as collectibles continue to be worth real money. The incentives just don't align.

Alteration going away? No, it's been here for decades, and the money is way too much for it to go away.

The authentication/grading companies being either nearly useless or complicit?
That could go away, but it seems like the vast majority of the hobby wants to be lied to and taken advantage of.

A friend collects stamps from among other things a small sort of country. Most of their stamps are other countries stamps overprinted with a new name. (sort of a standard thing) The guy who was THE expert a long time ago turned out to also be the guy making fake over prints that surprise! were expertized as good.
Once it was found out, he was kicked out of all philatelic groups he was in, and If I remember it right charged with fraud.
He expertized other stuff too, and now his expertizing mark* is taken as a sign that a fake is likely what you're looking at.

In Europe, it was standard for the expertizer to stamp their name on the back of the stamp. Sometimes in different positions to indicate real or fake flawed or not. They would also do entire sets essentially for the same price as one stamp. I learned this when I asked my friend about a stamp I'd gotten that was a very nice example, and had an expert mark, but I couldn't figure out why. Catalog value was maybe 50 cents, and the catalog listed no valuable varieties.

Serious legal action, ostracization, and similar measures are all that will curb the amount of nonsense we have going on now.
But the hobby for the most part doesn't have the guts to stick with demanding that, and Law enforcement seldom has the "need" and or support to commit resources to it when there are so many bigger crimes that need attention.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by steve B

Alteration going away? No, it's been here for decades, and the money is way too much for it to go away.

The authentication/grading companies being either nearly useless or complicit?
That could go away, but it seems like the vast majority of the hobby wants to be lied to and taken advantage of.

A friend collects stamps from among other things a small sort of country. Most of their stamps are other countries stamps overprinted with a new name. (sort of a standard thing) The guy who was THE expert a long time ago turned out to also be the guy making fake over prints that surprise! were expertized as good.
Once it was found out, he was kicked out of all philatelic groups he was in, and If I remember it right charged with fraud.
He expertized other stuff too, and now his expertizing mark* is taken as a sign that a fake is likely what you're looking at.

In Europe, it was standard for the expertizer to stamp their name on the back of the stamp. Sometimes in different positions to indicate real or fake flawed or not. They would also do entire sets essentially for the same price as one stamp. I learned this when I asked my friend about a stamp I'd gotten that was a very nice example, and had an expert mark, but I couldn't figure out why. Catalog value was maybe 50 cents, and the catalog listed no valuable varieties.

Serious legal action, ostracization, and similar measures are all that will curb the amount of nonsense we have going on now.
But the hobby for the most part doesn't have the guts to stick with demanding that, and Law enforcement seldom has the "need" and or support to commit resources to it when there are so many bigger crimes that need attention.

Valuable and very interesting insight. Thanks Steve.

[hammertime]

Originally Posted by steve B

Serious legal action, ostracization, and similar measures are all that will curb the amount of nonsense we have going on now.
But the hobby for the most part doesn't have the guts to stick with demanding that, and Law enforcement seldom has the "need" and or support to commit resources to it when there are so many bigger crimes that need attention.

I would love to see this but I think you're right about law enforcement not having the will to tackle it head-on. A lot of these alterations seem obvious to people in the hobby but to prove fraud in a court of law you need a lot more than a couple pictures of cards that appear to be the same card before and after alteration. You need concrete evidence of the alteration, you need to prove criminal intent, etc. That isn't as easy as some think.

Originally Posted by Mrc32

What incentive do these grading companies have to actually discover these altered cards?

Doesn't PSA get a lot more attention if they have a 1915 CJ Joe Jackson in a PSA 9 than a PSA 4? They aren't going to research every card like the skilled guys over on blowout do. They have a 6 month backlog as it is - and they are grading a card ever 90 seconds.

It really is a shame - but until buyers stop paying up for altered cards it won't stop.

Truth. Incentive, time and demand. No demand no market.

Originally Posted by campyfan39

The entire concept is completely subjective and ripe for problems. Congrats to people who love it and make money from it but this is one of several reasons I don't have any slabbed cards.
Just my .02

Yep. Me neither. Never had one graded and never will. Just doesn't matter to me as a collector.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by steve B

Alteration going away? No, it's been here for decades, and the money is way too much for it to go away.

The authentication/grading companies being either nearly useless or complicit?
That could go away, but it seems like the vast majority of the hobby wants to be lied to and taken advantage of.

A friend collects stamps from among other things a small sort of country. Most of their stamps are other countries stamps overprinted with a new name. (sort of a standard thing) The guy who was THE expert a long time ago turned out to also be the guy making fake over prints that surprise! were expertized as good.
Once it was found out, he was kicked out of all philatelic groups he was in, and If I remember it right charged with fraud.
He expertized other stuff too, and now his expertizing mark* is taken as a sign that a fake is likely what you're looking at.

In Europe, it was standard for the expertizer to stamp their name on the back of the stamp. Sometimes in different positions to indicate real or fake flawed or not. They would also do entire sets essentially for the same price as one stamp. I learned this when I asked my friend about a stamp I'd gotten that was a very nice example, and had an expert mark, but I couldn't figure out why. Catalog value was maybe 50 cents, and the catalog listed no valuable varieties.

Serious legal action, ostracization, and similar measures are all that will curb the amount of nonsense we have going on now.
But the hobby for the most part doesn't have the guts to stick with demanding that, and Law enforcement seldom has the "need" and or support to commit resources to it when there are so many bigger crimes that need attention.

Well stated, and completely agree...

But regarding your last statement, somehow Law Enforcement was able to commit ample resources to Mastro and to Operation Bullpen (neither of which was anywhere as rampant/widespread as the current card fiasco).

Don't be so sure that the FBI isn't still working on this. It takes time to build and cement the case, and there are a ton of "players" involved. In addition, Covid has probably delayed their investigative procedures by a number of months.

Time will tell.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I'm with Mark. I am almost certain that the FBI doesn't invest resources like they have (Agents at the last National among man other documented things) and then just up and quit. I'd put money on the fact that this is an ongoing investigation if there was any way to conclusively find out.

[molenick]

I had been tracking several of the Cracker Jacks out of curiosity and I just got emails saying the following lots have been withdrawn:

80217 1915 Cracker Jack Walter Johnson #57
80221 1915 Cracker Jack Napoleon Lajoie #66
80223 1915 Cracker Jack Honus Wagner #68
80230 1915 Cracker Jack Christy Mathewson #88
80234 1915 Cracker Jack Bill James #153

All were SGC 8.5 or higher. More lots may have been withdrawn which I was not tracking.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by molenick

I had been tracking several of the Cracker Jacks out of curiosity and I just got emails saying the following lots have been withdrawn:

80217 1915 Cracker Jack Walter Johnson #57
80221 1915 Cracker Jack Napoleon Lajoie #66
80223 1915 Cracker Jack Honus Wagner #68
80230 1915 Cracker Jack Christy Mathewson #88
80234 1915 Cracker Jack Bill James #153

All were SGC 8.5 or higher. More lots may have been withdrawn which I was not tracking.

To quote the song, Ain't that good news, man, ain't that news.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To quote the song, Ain't that good news, man, ain't that news.

Good Sam Cooke knowledge Peter.
Heres another:

It's been a long
A long time coming
But I know a change gonna come
Oh, yes it will

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Good Sam Cooke knowledge Peter.
Heres another:

It's been a long
A long time coming
But I know a change gonna come
Oh, yes it will

Same album, and Another Saturday Night as well for that matter.

A Change Is Gonna Come often is called his best song, especially by the politically correct like Rolling Stone lol, but to me nothing tops Wonderful World, one of a handful of what I would call perfect songs ever written.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Same album, and Another Saturday Night as well for that matter.

A Change Is Gonna Come often is called his best song, especially by the politically correct like Rolling Stone lol, but to me nothing tops Wonderful World, one of a handful of what I would call perfect songs ever written.

Great stuff when the Soul Stirrers backed him. Here's a modern gospel re-mix with Soul Stirrers. Kind of a neat tune.
-

[Peter_Spaeth]

Rhyming algebra and slide rule is for, genius. Imagine if he had lived longer, Buddy Holly too.

And since it's a card forum.

[3-2-count]

Originally Posted by molenick

I had been tracking several of the Cracker Jacks out of curiosity and I just got emails saying the following lots have been withdrawn:

80217 1915 Cracker Jack Walter Johnson #57
80221 1915 Cracker Jack Napoleon Lajoie #66
80223 1915 Cracker Jack Honus Wagner #68
80230 1915 Cracker Jack Christy Mathewson #88
80234 1915 Cracker Jack Bill James #153

All were SGC 8.5 or higher. More lots may have been withdrawn which I was not tracking.

Looking at these lot #'s, they appear to still be active.

Who were your emails from claiming that these had been withdrawn?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Same album, and Another Saturday Night as well for that matter.

A Change Is Gonna Come often is called his best song, especially by the politically correct like Rolling Stone lol, but to me nothing tops Wonderful World, one of a handful of what I would call perfect songs ever written.

I was going to nominate Convoy by C.W. McCall, Kung Fu Fighting by Carl Douglas or Billy Don't be a Hero by Bo Donaldson.

How's that for three "one hit wonders" you thought you'd never hear of again? I guess most people here have never heard of them, period!

[JollyElm]

I'm in the 'Bring It On Home To Me' camp.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I was going to nominate Convoy by C.W. McCall, Kung Fu Fighting by Carl Douglas or Billy Don't be a Hero by Bo Donaldson.

How's that for three "one hit wonders" you thought you'd never hear of again? I guess most people here have never heard of them, period!

Now there was genius, rhyming frightening and timing. Can you imagine someone releasing that song with its stereotypes today?

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by 3-2-count

Looking at these lot #'s, they appear to still be active.

Who were your emails from claiming that these had been withdrawn?

Here's the email I received from Heritage today re the withdrawal of Lot #80217:

"Greetings from Heritage Auctions.

A lot you have been tracking, lot # 80217, previously described as: "1915 Cracker Jack Walter Johnson #57 SGC Mint 9 – Pop Three, None Higher! For over half a century, Walter Johnson endured a lonely existence as the sole inhabitant of the 3,000 Strikeout Clubhouse until Cardinals ace Bob Gibson became his first roommate in 1974. Though Gibson may have matched Johnson's famous velocity, the Big Train was a singular rarity in the dawning decades of the twentieth century, striking fear into the hearts of even the most accomplished and unflappable batsmen of the day. "The first time I faced him, I watched him take that easy windup," the legendary Ty Cobb recounted. "And then something went past me that made me flinch. The thing just hissed with danger. We couldn't tough him. Every one of us knew we'd met the most powerful arm ever turned loose in a ball park." Three decades after that memorable first encounter, Cobb and Johnson would join Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner and Christy Mathewson as the very first inductees of the Baseball Hall of Fame. The offered trading finds itself in even more exclusive company, one of just three 1915 Cracker Jacks to find Johnson sheltered beneath a Mint 9 slab, with none superior. A condition report allows us to do nothing more than hurl superlatives, as the card passes its centennial looking better than most of the cards did upon their original birth from Cracker Jack packages in 1915 when sticky caramel was a common danger. The presented representation is indistinguishable from its state of condition upon original printing, clean and sharp-cornered, and even free of the centering problems endemic to the issue. The Big Train has never looked better. Graded SGC Mint 9." in the 2021 May 6 - 8 Spring Sports Catalog Auction - Dallas, #50041 has been withdrawn from the auction and is no longer available for tracking.

Thanks for your understanding.
If you have questions regarding this lot, please email Bid@HA.com."

[molenick]

The emails I got were from bid@ha.com saying the lots had been withdrawn. I agree it is a little confusing because the lot is still searchable as if it was live, but the description says it has been withdrawn. I am not sure what would happen if you tried to bid on it, but I don't want to try!

[perezfan]

Kudos to Heritage for doing the right thing

[3-2-count]

Looks like they’ve been withdrawn now!

Good to see!

[molenick]

Yeah, almost all the high grade 1915 Cracker Jacks no longer show up at all (although there is still a 9 Evers, 9.5 Speaker, and 8.5 Reulbach, which I guess were not specifically outed).

[Rhotchkiss]

Great work BODA, and I am glad to see Heritage pulled these. Now what happens with the cards? Back to consignor I guess..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Great work BODA, and I am glad to see Heritage pulled these. Now what happens with the cards? Back to consignor I guess..

They'll probably get recerted with new numbers, says one cynic.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They'll probably get recerted with new numbers, says one cynic.

And then, they're on their way to Brent.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They'll probably get recerted with new numbers, says one cynic.

More than one....

[Exhibitman]

Is anyone surprised given the latest hire at SGC



Fresh off a career umpiring.