The Cincinnati Wagner "Graded"

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Clearly the concern you express is correct, and it is scary. The implication, which we are already starting to see with respect to alterations, is that without provenance, "new find" Wagners may hold little value. For example, cards with a strong pedigree (e.g., Lionel Carter collection) will sell for premiums, which in time may become greater and greater.

The price could go down just by printing entire sheets

Since legit graders like SGC can spot trims, they should be able to spot the sheet cuts in the future - PSA could also, but would they? (shut up Scott). Also, in the far future the paper fiber may still be very difficult to 'disguise' as old. I don't know about dating ink.

One thing forgers have going for them is that no one's going to want to give up ink or fiber samples for testing.

[drc]

I don't believe that. Modern printing definitely does make a better and better representation of a T206 at the eye level, but more and more different at the microscopic level. Under the microscope, a laser printer looks nothing like 1909 lithography, and it is at the microscopic level that you identify and date the printing.

Now the way one could fool would be to make a fantasy item (totally made up, not a copy) using the old lithography techniques. In art schools, you can learn how to make stone lithographs. This is where provenance would be important.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by drc

I don't believe that. Modern printing definitely does make a better and better representation of a T206 at the eye level, but more and more different at the microscopic level. Under the microscope, a laser printer looks nothing like 1909 lithography, and it is at the microscopic level that you identify and date the printing.

Now the way one could fool would be to make a fantasy item (totally made up, not a copy) using the old lithography techniques. In art schools, you can learn how to make stone lithographs. This is where provenance would be important.

??? That's what we were talking about (duplicating the litho process).

Hey, it's only 1:15!!! coffee?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by drc

Now the way one could fool would be to make a fantasy item (totally made up, not a copy) using the old lithography techniques. In art schools, you can learn how to make stone lithographs. This is where provenance would be important.

David,

Glad to see your post. As I recall you were the source of most of the expert information in the earlier thread. Do you think it would ever be possible to so well create a new card that it could pass forensic dating?

[barrysloate]

Given the technology we have today, with smart phones, I Pads, satellites headed deep into outer space...you're telling me it would be impossible to reproduce a T206? I can't imagine that couldn't be tackled even today. It's just paper and ink.

[benjulmag]

I would think though that to pass muster with forensic dating, every material of which the card is composed must not only not contain any substance that was not commercially available in 1909, but must also match up perfectly with the substance cocktail of which T206s are composed. I can see how the cost to do this, as well as comply with all other forensic tests (e.g., dot matrix pattern) could be quite large. And it would seem to me if someone knew to do this, I'm not sure counterfeiting Wagners would be the most profitable thing to counterfeit. After all, in addition to everybody's radar being up when a previously unknown Wagner surfaces, the fact that they would be turning up at a certain rate in and of itself will be a basis for suspicion. Therefore there would be a very limited number of times a counterfeiter would be able to go to the well on this with that in and of itself not becoming a cause for insurmountable suspicion.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Given the technology we have today, with smart phones, I Pads, satellites headed deep into outer space...you're telling me it would be impossible to reproduce a T206? I can't imagine that couldn't be tackled even today. It's just paper and ink.

The problem is that the resulting litho card has to have dot patterns that result in an image close enough to the real thing to fool someone like me or you, so that they can be sold as real. And even closer to matching the real t206 dot patterns exactly, so that it can fool the grading companies.

I think the second criteria will require a computer to control the ink application, since each dot in the original image has to be mapped (using a computer), then applied (again using a computer). I doubt that's possible today, but no doubt it will be in the future.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

I would think though that to pass muster with forensic dating, every material of which the card is composed must not only not contain any substance that was not commercially available in 1909, but must also match up perfectly with the substance cocktail of which T206s are composed. I can see how the cost to do this, as well as comply with all other forensic tests (e.g., dot matrix pattern) could be quite large. And it would seem to me if someone knew to do this, I'm not sure counterfeiting Wagners would be the most profitable thing to counterfeit. After all, in addition to everybody's radar being up when a previously unknown Wagner surfaces, the fact that they would be turning up at a certain rate in and of itself will be a basis for suspicion. Therefore there would be a very limited number of times a counterfeiter would be able to go to the well on this with that in and of itself not becoming a cause for insurmountable suspicion.

Anyone remember 1984 Star #101 Jordan's, when out of the original supposed print run of 4,000, it seemed like 14,000 were still out there after they caught fire in the early to mid-'90's? Or the 1985 Chong Modesto A's McGwire, when, despite a supposed original print run of 250 or so, they were everywhere during and after 1998? Up goes supply, down goes $$$ value.

As one that prefers to see the glass half-full, however, I believe that whenever something like a card is produced by a different process and/or with different materials than the original, there will be differences. With technological advances, those differences may be difficult to detect, but I am convinced that they will indeed be detectable. The costs of detection may rise considerably, however. Invest in grading companies now??? A most interesting proposition to discuss (not the investment in TPG companies, but the detectability issue itself). The same concerns would seem to apply equally to the coin collecting field, with the possibility of using computers to conceivably re-create dies to stamp out coins of famous rarities, like the 1804 silver dollar, 1913 liberty head nickel, etc., assuming you could also duplicate the metalurgical contents of the planchets from which the coins themselves are struck by the dies. At the moment, there are a lot more coins that have sold for $100,000 plus than cards, and quite a few collections have sold for sums into 8 figures. There's a lot of money at stake there, and at stake here. In such circumstances, the financing necessary to devise counter-measures of detection will be in place, almost regardless of the expense. Different processes and times of manufacture will leave different footprints, IMO.

May your collecting always be a prosperous proposition, even as to those that think I should find a new hobby after more than 20 years!

Larry

[steve B]

The thing is that the technology to detect it is already getting cheaper.

On TV I saw a show by the twins from antiques roadshow. One item they needed to know if it was ancient chineese bronze or new stuff. So they got out the portable spectrograph! Results in about as much time as it takes to scan a card and no tiny sample to destroy.

A friend of mine worked building spectrographs years ago, and I knew they were expensive. So I did some looking, and a setup like they used on TV was only $30,000 instead of the mid 6 figure and up prices I recall.

If a high grade Wagner was found having the spectrograph results would be cheap considering the price.

Steve B

[ls7plus]

Thanks, Steve--very interesting!

Best always,

Larry

[joeadcock]

Barry

I would guess the 2 owners of the card will wait awhile(?who knows how long), and this story will die down.

Then the Wager ACA card will likely pop up on ebay for a very large amt of money as a BUY IT NOW. If no takers, they may auction it off as a legitimately graded card. Legitimate that is to ACA. And no doubt someone will pay hundreds to perhaps thousand(s) for it(though none of the board members)

This card on ebay will fuel hope in someone that they may actually have a Wagner for a lot less money than they could every afford. That person will have bought a fake.

When (not if) this happens, I doubt the owners would fade. They may try it again(since it worked the first time), with another card of value(i.e. Plank T206, or Lajoie Goudey). Probably use ACA again if it is still around and if the Wagner does not expose them by that time. This time, they will likely do it privately(without much fanfare)

[barrysloate]

You're probably right. They will look for some venue that might work for them. It might be ebay, it might be one of those small country auctions like they tried the first time around. This story won't have a happy ending, but I'm sure these guys will try to sell it.

[glynparson]

sIMILAR CARD BOARD SAME PLATES, big DIFFERENCE FROM THIS PIECE OF CRAP, AGAIN IF YOU NEED A LOUPE FOR THIS CARD YOU DONT KNOW CRAP ABOUT CARDS, SORRY Larry but since i dont sell anymore i actually can be more honest, about what is know a hobby and something I do love and am passionate about. There are alterations and even a few counterfeits that need louping but the overwhelming majority have a number of signs that give them away as fraudulent before you ever need to pick up a loupe. I am willing to bet over 90% of fakes are deemed as such at grading companies before they ever pick up a loupe. You can discredit authenticity without one, however on something like wagner or a mantle 52 many may need one before unequivocally authenticating.

[brass_rat]

...but thought I'd share a link to a "press release"...

http://www.prlog.org/11711982-ohio-c...lectibles.html

...and in case you want to "like" the card on Facebook, the card even has its own fan page...

http://www.facebook.com/TheCobbEdwar...onusWagnerCard

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by brass_rat

...but thought I'd share a link to a "press release"...

http://www.prlog.org/11711982-ohio-c...lectibles.html

...and in case you want to "like" the card on Facebook, the card even has its own fan page...

http://www.facebook.com/TheCobbEdwar...onusWagnerCard

I hope they are planning to use Colossal Auctions.

[Kenny Cole]

Interesting. They were willing to place the card in a safe owned by someone else (who unsuccessfully attempted to auction the card) for 5 years, but were afraid to give it up to a grader for 20 minutes or so. Hmmm. Yep, race and class are the issues. Particularly class, or the lack thereof.

Anyone want to go in halfsies on creating a few fraudulent Just So cards, or maybe some N172 Anson in uniform cards? If I read the story correctly, all we have to do is perservere for a few years. I'm a WASP, so that race thing is kind of problematic, but I'm sure we can figure out a way to overcome that handicap. If we can, at the least, we should be able to get a book or film deal. If the article is correct, it should easy money.

[iggyman]

Whoa! So it's not a proof but a genuine reprint from the "war to end all wars" era??? All this from a Canadian cable tv appraiser??? Bernard Goldberg and Bryant Gumbel! I'm stoked! I can't wait for the movie!

Lovely Day...

[barrysloate]

Well, they need an angle to sell this so of course they're playing the race card. We're just picking on them because we're white and they're black. And outright lying doesn't hurt either. They claim that various message boards (meaning us) have been hurling racial epithets at them. Nobody here has ever made even one racial comment towards them; the only negative criticism we've expressed is that they are committing fraud.

Then they take another predictable route: since Mastro is under investigation, he can't possibly be trusted to authenticate it. And since PSA graded the Gretzky Wagner, they too wouldn't know if it's real. Just play out the bullsh*t angle and everything will be fine.

And I knew they would go back to the Connelly fellow because he was the only one to support them the first time around. I hope that on the day this card is scheduled to be auctioned, the feds are there with three pairs of handcuffs. What a crock of sh*t.

[z28jd]

The funny thing about them playing the race card is they are trying to sell the card so how does it even make sense to say those rich white men who run the hobby won't buy the card from them because of their color? I could see them playing the race card if they had a mint condition Wagner and wanted it to be recognized as the best one in the hobby but they are trying to sell the card to these rich white men who want to own a Wagner, you could probably find hundreds of them to bid on a real one and they wouldn't care who owns it. There has never been an auction description for an authentic Wagner that sold that included the color of the seller in the description just for full disclosure

Playing the race card makes absolutely zero sense in this situation and I don't know how they convince people to write stories based on that premise. They're basically saying these rich white men refuse to give them money for the holy grail of baseball cards, not based on the card's authenticity but based on the color of the seller's skin.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Well, they need an angle to sell this so of course they're playing the race card. We're just picking on them because we're white and they're black. And outright lying doesn't hurt either. They claim that various message boards (meaning us) have been hurling racial epithets at them. Nobody here has ever made even one racial comment towards them; the only negative criticism we've expressed is that they are committing fraud.

Then they take another predictable route: since Mastro is under investigation, he can't possibly be trusted to authenticate it. And since PSA graded the Gretzky Wagner, they too wouldn't know if it's real. Just play out the bullsh*t angle and everything will be fine.

And I knew they would go back to the Connelly fellow because he was the only one to support them the first time around. I hope that on the day this card is scheduled to be auctioned, the feds are there with three pairs of handcuffs. What a crock of sh*t.

wow Barry, in the ~6 years of me being part of net54, i think thats the most worked up I remember you getting!

[barrysloate]

Rob- when these guys first surfaced on the board- I believe it was Mr. Cobb who posted here many years ago- I was equally agitated. There are so many things about them that get me worked up. However, I agree I'm normally a whole lot calmer... I forgot to take my Propofol this morning.

[MW1]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

wow Barry, in the ~6 years of me being part of net54, i think thats the most worked up I remember you getting!

Barry's absolutely correct. I've recounted the story a number of times, but to wit, I was there when they first purchased the card at a show in Cincinnati and it was obvious from the beginning that the two of them were con men. They knew (and admitted) it was fake then and they know it's fake now. The most remarkable aspect of the entire saga, however, is how far the story has been drawn out and how many resources various local and national news outlets have expended on it. Cobb and Edwards bought a reprinted T206 Wagner off of a dealer's table for $1. End of story. No other footnotes required.

[bosoxfan]

Originally Posted by z28jd

The funny thing about them playing the race card is they are trying to sell the card so how does it even make sense to say those rich white men who run the hobby won't buy the card from them because of their color? I could see them playing the race card if they had a mint condition Wagner and wanted it to be recognized as the best one in the hobby but they are trying to sell the card to these rich white men who want to own a Wagner, you could probably find hundreds of them to bid on a real one and they wouldn't care who owns it. There has never been an auction description for an authentic Wagner that sold that included the color of the seller in the description just for full disclosure

Playing the race card makes absolutely zero sense in this situation and I don't know how they convince people to write stories based on that premise. They're basically saying these rich white men refuse to give them money for the holy grail of baseball cards, not based on the card's authenticity but based on the color of the seller's skin.

Truer words have never been spoken

[drc]

No one here knows the racial makeup up of T206 Wagner consignors overall. As noted the identities are rarely revealed to the bidders. I don't know. You don't know. The gentlemen from Cincinnati don't know. The reporters from the New York Daily News don't know. As consignments are mostly done through the mail, the auction houses don't know the races of most of their consignors. Who says black men haven't before successfully consigned or gotten graded by PSA a T206 Wagner before? Someone's claim that no black men have successfully consigned before a T206 Wagner to REA or Legendary or whatever big wig auction or house or gotten a T206 Wagner graded/authenticated by PSA or SGC is conjecture. And not only is it conjecture, it could also be wrong.

[barrysloate]

If that Wagner were real, its owners would be amazed at how many white collectors would be happy to discuss with them a possible purchase. They would be equally amazed at how many white consignment directors would gladly work out a favorable deal with them to get it in their auctions. They might even take those two gentlemen out to dinner. If it were real all racial tensions would thaw in a nanosecond.

[Denali]

I have been a member of Net54 for a few months but haven't posted yet because I am not sure whether I want to get back into collecting yet. My interest would be in T206 era tobacco packs.

Anyway, I came across this 2002 Cincinnati Enquirer article online that I found to be intriguing:

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/200...gner_card.html

The article stated that the card was claimed to have been picked up at an "estate sale".

Is it related?

[cobblove]

Hey I have that card!!!!!!!!!!
One sec its with my 1990 score baseball cards. Didnt know it was worth millions. But I did pay 1800.00 one night when I was a sleep. Dont look at the front though look at the back please!!
Oh and can I have 1,000,000.00 I work very hard some times. Easy street please!

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by joeadcock

Barry

I would guess the 2 owners of the card will wait awhile(?who knows how long), and this story will die down.

Then the Wager ACA card will likely pop up on ebay for a very large amt of money as a BUY IT NOW.

It looks like 6months is the length of time that Cobb and Edwards waited with their fake Wagner. Also you were right it will end up on ebay.

http://www.honuswagnerauction.com/

I know people are getting tired of this story, but I still find it interesting until there is an end (more than likely the two selling it, then ending up in jail for fraud).

This website they started for their auction just seems to give more evidence as to the card being fake. In particular the page they have named "Rosary Dot Matrix info". I have never seen a close up of this card before, but now that they have given a close up of the card it is even funnier. Why wouldn't they compare it to another t206 instead of a postcard? Because it doesn't have the same printing!

I know everyone here knows it is a fake, but we need to keep posting these posts whenever it is going up for sale to fight "News" articles that pop up like these that popped up today:
PRWeb
This article has even been picked up by yahoo news as well as other outlets that are publishing the news article from prweb.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by MW1

Barry's absolutely correct. I've recounted the story a number of times, but to wit, I was there when they first purchased the card at a show in Cincinnati and it was obvious from the beginning that the two of them were con men. They knew (and admitted) it was fake then and they know it's fake now. The most remarkable aspect of the entire saga, however, is how far the story has been drawn out and how many resources various local and national news outlets have expended on it. Cobb and Edwards bought a reprinted T206 Wagner off of a dealer's table for $1. End of story. No other footnotes required.

Michael, if you really want to have some fun with this, buy a copy of the same reprint they used and create a page showing close-ups of your print patterns and comparing them to those on the scammer card. Send it to the media - they would have a field day with exposing the scammers.

[g_vezina_c55]

i spoke last week end at the MTL card show with the man at ACA who authenticated this Wagner and i asked several question about the card to the authenticator.

All the answer i received from the grader didn t persuade me it is a real card. I continue to think it is a fake. He said to me that ebay will permit the sale of the card in april on ebay website.

i have some difficult to explane his answer in english but his explanation is it is not the honus wagner card like we all know... he said it is another version of the wagner.... anyway

for me it is not a real Wagner T206.

[fkw]

this story aint even funny anymore..

The card is so bad and easy to spot as not being from the 1910 Era let alone related to T206 (not lithographed) its borderline stupidity on the medias part, that keeps it in the news.
Its not even a counterfeit, its a reprint Ive seen many times (1985-90s Era one) that is badly doctored to look old.
A counterfeit is usually much better, and made to fool. This is a novelty piece for amusement...

that "Rosary Dot Matrix" page is funny though, they are trying to PROVE its not authentic (w/o even knowing it) with that crap

love the "rainbow printed" caption closeup, thats all the proof you need to know its not lithographed... lol

[E93]

These guys are relentless. THey sure are putting a lot of energy into what will either amount to nothing (no sale), or a fraud charge and time in prison.
JimB

[scooter729]

Well, direct from their website:

"The Cobb/Edwards card past all test giving by the VSC40FS machine."

It "past" all test. Sounds to me like it went right past the test alright....

[barrysloate]

If it goes on ebay, there will be enough people contacting them with negative feedback and ebay will be forced to shut it down.

On their website, Cobbs and Edwards post that despite all the negative publicity, nobody has come up with the facts to dispute its authenticity. And that of course is an absolute lie. They've been told on countless occasions the card appears to be a reprint glued to a real Piedmont back, and they've been told repeatedly that the paper is wrong, the colors are washed out, the resolution is poor, the fonts aren't right, among other things. They instead choose to tune out the facts and create ones of their own.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

If it goes on ebay, there will be enough people contacting them with negative feedback and ebay will be forced to shut it down.

On their website, Cobbs and Edwards post that despite all the negative publicity, nobody has come up with the facts to dispute its authenticity. And that of course is an absolute lie. They've been told on countless occasions the card appears to be a reprint glued to a real Piedmont back, and they've been told repeatedly that the paper is wrong, the colors are washed out, the resolution is poor, the fonts aren't right, among other things. They instead choose to tune out the facts and create ones of their own.

Yes, but Barry - since they are the ones who had all the modifications made to this reprint card, their behavior in attempting to sell it is as to be expected. The real joke is the few ambulance-chaser-grade media reps who have given them publicity. The joke ends when it finally gets purchased and the new owner takes them to court.

And that's when the real entertainment begins for us.

[barrysloate]

It would be unfortunate if somebody actually pays thousands of dollars for it. It could happen.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

It would be unfortunate if somebody actually pays thousands of dollars for it. It could happen.

You're right Barry- but that's what they're banking on. Just one person who will buy into the dream of owning one- and believe all the B/S in the write up on their website.

It's funny how they did the close up of the printing of the words......multi colored

FAKE

Sincerely, Clayton

[sbfinley]

There is no way in heck ebay allows that auction to run its course. It seems that with these clowns it is not about the money anymore (well it is a little about the money) as much as it is about "Ha, I told you so."

If I happen to hit mega-millions tonight, I'll buy it and burn it just to end this story.

[ullmandds]

They've created their own reality distortion field.

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

There is no way in heck ebay allows that auction to run its course. It seems that with these clowns it is not about the money anymore (well it is a little about the money) as much as it is about "Ha, I told you so."

If I happen to hit mega-millions tonight, I'll buy it and burn it just to end this story.

It is the guy at ACA who told to me the card will be allow by ebay to be sold in april.... it is what he said to me last week end...

wathever the place this card will be for sale, these guy will not find buyer for his card.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by g_vezina_c55

It is the guy at ACA who told to me the card will be allow by ebay to be sold in april.... it is what he said to me last week end...

wathever the place this card will be for sale, these guy will not find buyer for his card.

I have a feeling ebay may be allowing it as long as they cover the fact that the card has "controversy" surrounding it. Also at this point they (the cousins) may be saying to Ebay that it now is a collectible in and of itself because of the news that has surrounded it.

[barrysloate]

I don't see any controversy whatsoever regarding this card. It's a fake with no argument proving otherwise.

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

i don't see any controversy whatsoever regarding this card. It's a fake with no argument proving otherwise.

x 2

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I don't see any controversy whatsoever regarding this card. It's a fake with no argument proving otherwise.

Entirely, 100%, agreed. That is why I had to put it in quotes.

[atx840]

[Blunder19]

if it goes on ebay I will buy it..... for $1.99

[z28jd]

For those just reading this again, this reprint isn't even one of one and it isn't a real back on a fake front. I have the same exact card. Got it from a dealer at a Cherry Hill,NJ show in 1991ish.

[MW1]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Michael, if you really want to have some fun with this, buy a copy of the same reprint they used and create a page showing close-ups of your print patterns and comparing them to those on the scammer card. Send it to the media - they would have a field day with exposing the scammers.

I have to admit that now I'm not so sure. I mean, the card has a FACTORY DIST. NUMBER on the reverse side so now I'm thinking it might be real after all.

See for yourself: http://www.honuswagnerauction.com/wp...ck-revise3.jpg

[Bilko G]

Interesting thread. the ACA slabs/flips look almost identical to BGS

[Mdoe]

Originally Posted by MW1

I have to admit that now I'm not so sure. I mean, the card has a FACTORY DIST. NUMBER on the reverse side so now I'm thinking it might be real after all.

See for yourself: http://www.honuswagnerauction.com/wp...ck-revise3.jpg

The issue has never been the back- generally accepted that the back is real and the front is a reprint affixed to an authentic back. Also, there are reprints out there with factory numbers.