Sad News, Rickey Henderson Passes

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

…ancient "unwritten rules"…

These ancient “unwritten rules” are what makes baseball the greatest sport in the world. No other sport has these…

Yeah, sure. No touching the buffet in the clubhouse before the veterans eat . . .that's huge. Throw some dude's food on the floor. That's what makes the sport great.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

…ancient "unwritten rules"…



These ancient “unwritten rules” are what makes baseball the greatest sport in the world. No other sport has these…

I don't know. I don't think I've ever said "I'm so in love with this game because XYZ never offends anyone."

I started watching baseball in 1990s. People were saying Griffey was horrible for wearing his hat backward. Griffey is the undeniable favorite modern player for collectors.

Today, there is just something about watching Elly de la Cruz. He is young, a diamond in the rough, but he is bringing people to baseball. His bat flips, eagerness, smile, it's contagious. I've worn Reds hats and jerseys for years. Nobody cared. Now random people walk past me and stop me to say things. And it's no longer, "Are you a Chicago Bears fan?"

Shohei Ohtani is just boring, regardless of his talent. Rickey being Rickey made people love him or hate him.

Sent from my SM-S926U using Tapatalk

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by todeen

I don't know. I don't think I've ever said "I'm so in love with this game because XYZ never offends anyone."

I started watching baseball in 1990s. People were saying Griffey was horrible for wearing his hat backward. Griffey is the undeniable favorite modern player for collectors.

Today, there is just something about watching Elly de la Cruz. He is young, a diamond in the rough, but he is bringing people to baseball. His bat flips, eagerness, smile, it's contagious. I've worn Reds hats and jerseys for years. Nobody cared. Now random people walk past me and stop me to say things. And it's no longer, "Are you a Chicago Bears fan?"

Shohei Ohtani is just boring, regardless of his talent. Rickey being Rickey made people love him or hate him.

Sent from my SM-S926U using Tapatalk

The problem now is that Rickey Henderson would be very tame in comparison to some players. He wouldn't be flashy now, he'd be average. Some of these celebrations we see now are somewhere between obnoxious and childish. Grown men have choreographed dances for home runs and take 35 seconds to get through it. One of the craziest things people say is let them have fun, as if hitting a Major League home run isn't fun. As if celebrating a home run with your teammates isn't fun. A lot of the celebrations just show a lack of respect for the opponents. No one wants a league full of guys acting like Jesse Winkler, but we could be headed that way.

[Bpm0014]

Yeah, sure. No touching the buffet in the clubhouse before the veterans eat . . .that's huge. Throw some dude's food on the floor. That's what makes the sport great.

This happens in literally every sport. Not just baseball. Your argument is dumb.

[Snapolit1]

"Grown men have choreographed dances for home runs and take 35 seconds to get through it."


Perhaps you are thinking about the NFL?

[docpatlv]

Originally Posted by Collectorsince62

Very early in Rickey's career he was an autograph guest at a show in St. Louis. I was helping out in some small capacity and ended up sitting near him before the signings began. Johnny Mize was also signing that day. I think everyone expected Henderson to be too cool for the room, but he turned out to be a great guest. I sat in amazement as Rickey asked Mize about hitting. The Big Cat talked for quite a while and Rickey hung on every word. It was inspiring to see an already successful young superstar eager to learn from a great player 45 years his senior.

I think I was at that show as well, I still have the Rickey and Mize autos from that day. I’m positive that Lou Brock was signing as well, do you remember? I think it was 1982.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

Yeah, sure. No touching the buffet in the clubhouse before the veterans eat . . .that's huge. Throw some dude's food on the floor. That's what makes the sport great.

This happens in literally every sport. Not just baseball. Your argument is dumb.

I'm going to guess that you think the Yankee's no facial hair policy elevates the game somehow.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by todeen

I don't know. I don't think I've ever said "I'm so in love with this game because XYZ never offends anyone."

I started watching baseball in 1990s. People were saying Griffey was horrible for wearing his hat backward. Griffey is the undeniable favorite modern player for collectors.

Today, there is just something about watching Elly de la Cruz. He is young, a diamond in the rough, but he is bringing people to baseball. His bat flips, eagerness, smile, it's contagious. I've worn Reds hats and jerseys for years. Nobody cared. Now random people walk past me and stop me to say things. And it's no longer, "Are you a Chicago Bears fan?"

Shohei Ohtani is just boring, regardless of his talent. Rickey being Rickey made people love him or hate him.

Sent from my SM-S926U using Tapatalk

I think Acuna plays the game with great flair and joy, without being too obnoxious.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by z28jd

The problem now is that Rickey Henderson would be very tame in comparison to some players. He wouldn't be flashy now, he'd be average. Some of these celebrations we see now are somewhere between obnoxious and childish. Grown men have choreographed dances for home runs and take 35 seconds to get through it. One of the craziest things people say is let them have fun, as if hitting a Major League home run isn't fun. As if celebrating a home run with your teammates isn't fun. A lot of the celebrations just show a lack of respect for the opponents. No one wants a league full of guys acting like Jesse Winkler, but we could be headed that way.

A league full of Jesse Winkers would be unbearable!

Yeah, just like Rickey, Griffey Jr would be tame by comparison.

But you have to admit, the televised WBC games with Latin teams are entertaining. Randy Arozarena brings that flare. Little Leaguers were loving Arozarena a couple years ago. They were wearing pearls like Joc Pederson. It's fun to see kids finding joy like I did with Griffey.

Sent from my SM-S926U using Tapatalk

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

There will never be another Rickey. Incredible athletes like him, Tim Raines, and Vince Coleman rarely choose baseball these days. It's sad that the sport is largely dead in the black community.

Not to mention Maury Wills and Lou Brock from the 1960's.

But there's been a pronounced decline in base stealing overall this century to the detriment of the game. Baseball is oft criticized for being slow with little action. Well a speed merchant/base stealer on the base paths adds a quantum level of excitement to the game.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by mortimer brewster

RIP Rickey,

Darn, now the players who made their debut in my adult years are starting to pass.

Mike Bossy of the New York Islanders was the first such shocker for me. Born 22 January 1957, he passed away of lung cancer on 15 April 2022.

[mybuddyinc]

Can only express what has already been said:

65, so sad (and scary that's about my age).
Greatest lead-ff off hitter, no questions.
His stolen base record will never be beaten (they don't steal much these days).

One of my favorite players, and can recall my most favorite play, his "bunt double" ---

Bunted the ball real hard to right side of infield. Ball shoots between charging pitcher and 1B. By the time the 2B (covering first), and the RF (with ball trickling to him), noticed what was happening, Ricky was on second !!!!

Sad, sad, Scott

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Kutcher55

Wasn’t a big fan for most of his career, although he did seem to mature later on in some ways. Back in 82 the year he stole 130 my dad and I were on a west coast trip and went to a midsummer Oakland game. The A’s fell behind 6-0 early and Henderson drew a walk and immediately tried to steal 2nd. They pitched out and threw him out by a mile. My dad commented (correctly imo) that it was a selfish play and bad baseball given the game situation.

That was all Billy Martin. Billy had burned out the A's starting staff the previous couple of seasons and the offense had the lowest Batting Average in all of baseball that season. Billy was just playing chaos ball to try and stay in games.

They had Rickey and a bit of pop, so they were still about league average in Runs Scored, but their pitching was so horrendous it didn't matter.

Billy gave Rickey the green light to go whenever, wherever, and in all situations. Just try and cause chaos and maybe we'll eke one out here and there.

Also rumors were Billy was trying to get fired to go back and work for Steinbrenner......so....there's that.

Not a coincidence Billy did come back as manager, the same year Henderson came to the Yanks.

[Snapolit1]

This is the scenario I love:

Young guy hits homerun in a big spot, showboats a little going around the bases.

Certain percentage of fan base snickers of is really pissed at the celebration. (Particularly if player has dreads or is wearing a doo rag.)

Reporter asks pitcher after the game if he was pissed at celebration.

Pitchers says "hell, he can celebrate however he wants. He hit a homerun.
Only thing I'm worried about is throwing a better pitch in that spot."

Fans getting their panties in a twist while fellow players shrug and say who cares.

[Touch'EmAll]

The anticipation and excitement was tremendous when Ricky was on base! Just loved to see him - the cat/mouse with the pitchers trying to hold him close - his break to second base - his speed - the thrill of his head first slide! A lotta fun !

[D. Bergin]

Amazing, Rickey is basically the Wayne Gretzky of stolen bases. I just realized he played another 12 seasons AFTER he broke Lou Brock's record.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Agree.

There's no way Johnny Bench was better than Ricky Henderson! Pete Rose, maybe, but not Johnny Bench.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

The anticipation and excitement was tremendous when Ricky was on base! Just loved to see him - the cat/mouse with the pitchers trying to hold him close - his break to second base - his speed - the thrill of his head first slide! A lotta fun !

For a good part of his career...the pitcher and catcher KNEW he was going. It was just a matter of whether they could do anything about it.

Saw many Walks turn into Triples. Saw him get picked off a lot to. Also saw him beat a lot of pickoffs (and pitchouts) to 2nd base.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

This is the scenario I love:

Young guy hits homerun in a big spot, showboats a little going around the bases.

Certain percentage of fan base snickers of is really pissed at the celebration. (Particularly if player has dreads or is wearing a doo rag.)

Reporter asks pitcher after the game if he was pissed at celebration.

Pitchers says "hell, he can celebrate however he wants. He hit a homerun.
Only thing I'm worried about is throwing a better pitch in that spot."

Fans getting their panties in a twist while fellow players shrug and say who cares.

This is the scenario I love:

Young guy with dreadlocks or doo rag hits homerun in a big spot, showboats a little going around the bases thus neglecting to touch second. Is thrown out.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Amazing, Rickey is basically the Wayne Gretzky of stolen bases. I just realized he played another 12 seasons AFTER he broke Lou Brock's record.

He led the league at age 39 lol.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

This is the scenario I love:



Young guy with dreadlocks or doo rag hits homerun in a big spot, showboats a little going around the bases thus neglecting to touch second. Is thrown out.

I think this came up in the playoffs, but the base almost missed (HR upheld on review) was first base.

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[z28jd]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

"Grown men have choreographed dances for home runs and take 35 seconds to get through it."


Perhaps you are thinking about the NFL?

I hate football and even I know they don't have home runs.

If you've never seen choreographed dances around the basepaths that take too long then you haven't watched baseball in ten years.

[D. Bergin]

Rickey had some memorable postseason performances to.

Absolutely dominated in 1989 in both the Championship Series and the World Series.

In 1999, at age 40 with the Mets, in the Division Series against Arizona, he batted .400 and went 6 for 6 stealing bases.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by todeen

A league full of Jesse Winkers would be unbearable!

Yeah, just like Rickey, Griffey Jr would be tame by comparison.

But you have to admit, the televised WBC games with Latin teams are entertaining. Randy Arozarena brings that flare. Little Leaguers were loving Arozarena a couple years ago. They were wearing pearls like Joc Pederson. It's fun to see kids finding joy like I did with Griffey.

Sent from my SM-S926U using Tapatalk

There's a misconception among MLB fans that think Latin players are being unfairly held back in the fun department. I watched winter league ball as part of my job for almost 15 years and I can tell you that the people who hate the Latin celebrations most are opposing Latin players. The amount of brawls in Latin countries (Mexico, Dominican, Colombia and Venezuela were the ones I watched the most) was far beyond anything we have seen in the majors.

They don't like over the top celebrations against them, they don't like guys watching homers. The celebrations where the entire team comes out of the dugout seems to be completely acceptable from what I've seen. I have probably seen at least twice as many winter league brawls in about 750 games total (give or take), than I have in almost 40 years of watching MLB and minor league games religiously, probably close to 10,000 games total. I've also watched about 150-200 games from Australia and I've seen one brawl there.

I thought it was hilarious that they were trying to make it about Latin players celebrating too much and that's why people were against it. They don't let anything go down there if it's disrespectful. MLB is a saint compared to winter ball in policing disrespectful celebrations.

So basically, Latin celebrations can add some excitement (you can't beat the crowds at winter league games) if done how they consider to be "correct", but winter ball celebrations can also lead to wild brawls pretty easy.

[Vintagedeputy]

One of the most electric ball players I’ve ever seen play.

I hope wherever Rickey is at now, he can see the Entire State Building from there.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

There's no way Johnny Bench was better than Ricky Henderson! Pete Rose, maybe, but not Johnny Bench.

Funny I feel there's no way Pete Rose was better than Henderson, but Bench clearly was.

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

There's no way Johnny Bench was better than Ricky Henderson! Pete Rose, maybe, but not Johnny Bench.

Rose? Rickey was an order of magnitude better than Rose. I know WAR is not the end-all be-all, but in this case they’re so far apart that it does tell you pretty much all you need on this question. Rickey 111.1, Rose 79.5. Bench had 79.1, for reference.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by ASF123

Rose? Rickey was an order of magnitude better than Rose. I know WAR is not the end-all be-all, but in this case they’re so far apart that it does tell you pretty much all you need on this question. Rickey 111.1, Rose 79.5. Bench had 79.1, for reference.

Bench had 79.1 as a Catcher with a much shorter career then both...partly or mostly because he was a full-time catcher.

I'm in the Rickey better than Rose, while Bench is much more debatable camp...simply because of the position that Bench played.

If I were to start a team off, and had to pick a young Bench, or a young Rickey...I'd probably pick Bench, having the hindsight to know the type of skillset that Bench possessed, and how rare it is to have that steady presence at that position both offensively and defensively for over a decade.

Rickey might get bored and be off somewhere else after a few seasons.

I'll give it to Rose though. He was more durable then both (not that either one was made of china either). Sometimes, just being available everyday is an under-rated skill, when it means somebody at the end of the bench has to fill in for you.

I would have certainly put Rickey ahead of Koufax however. Rickey was just as (or almost as) electric as Koufax for as long as Koufax was for a certain number of prime years......plus he was pretty damn good for another 10-15 years on top of that.

[jbsports33]

One of the reasons I got into the hobby at age 9 was Rickey Henderson - he will be missed - my first card that I ever got was 1980 Topps RC card

Jimmy

[Kzoo]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Well a speed merchant/base stealer on the base paths adds a quantum level of excitement to the game.

I feel that Elly de la Cruz brought this to the MLB last year, for the first time in a long time. I only got to witness Rickey playing in a few games of his career due to my distance from Detroit (Kalamazoo) in the 1980's/90's, but I remember feeling the same buzz when he was on base at the old Tiger Stadium. My family's yearly trip to watch the Tigers was always against the A's or Yankees (on purpose). Everyone in the stadium knew he was running, but on which pitch?

And how many other superstar players in sports with a first name or nickname could immediately be identified besides Michael, Junior, Bo, Barry, or Sweetness, etc.? For people paying attention, every 'sports nut' in the 1980's and 1990's knew exactly who 'Rickey' was.

[D. Bergin]

Damn, apparently Rickey is crashing Baseball Reference right now. Never seen that before.

Add that to his accomplishments.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

There's no way Johnny Bench was better than Ricky Henderson! Pete Rose, maybe, but not Johnny Bench.

Ummm... Bench is universally regarded as the greatest Catcher of all time.

No one would make that claim for Henderson as an outfielder. Nobody in his/her right mind would rank Henderson above Aaron, Mays, Ruth, Musial, Mantle, DiMaggio, Williams, Cobb, Clemente and many others. Ridiculous argument.

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Ummm... Bench is universally regarded as the greatest Catcher of all time.

No one would make that claim for Henderson as an outfielder. Nobody in his/her right mind would rank Henderson above Aaron, Mays, Ruth, Musial, Mantle, DiMaggio, Williams, Cobb, Clemente and many others. Ridiculous argument.

I think you’re underrating just how great Rickey really was. Again, yes, WAR is not everything, but he put up one more than Mantle, 16 more than Clemente and a whole bunch more than DiMaggio, although of course Joe had military service time.

You might not rank Rickey above those guys based on other factors, and that’s fine, but it’s not ridiculous or crazy to say he was better.

[Kzoo]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Nobody in his/her right mind would rank Henderson above Aaron, Mays, Ruth, Musial, Mantle, DiMaggio, Williams, Cobb, Clemente and many others. Ridiculous argument.

Mark, I highly value your opinion in many areas of the hobby, but with Rickey it's like 'apples to oranges' in regards to most other top tier HOF'ers. Rickey's game is only really historically comparable to Cobb from your list and Rickey bettered Cobb in a few key categories.....SB's, runs and walks. Rickey isn't the same type of player as the other guys listed. His game was speed and disruption on the base paths, with some sneaky power mixed in. Just my 2 cents. RIP Rickey!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by BRoberts

Joe DiMaggio continues to insist he be referred to as baseball's greatest living player.

When MLB chose their all-time team in 1969, Joe DiMaggio was chosen as the greatest living player. I don't agree, but anyone else who would have had that honor bestowed on them, would have kept referring to it also.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by ASF123

I think you’re underrating just how great Rickey really was. Again, yes, WAR is not everything, but he put up one more than Mantle, 16 more than Clemente and a whole bunch more than DiMaggio, although of course Joe had military service time.

You might not rank Rickey above those guys based on other factors, and that’s fine, but it’s not ridiculous or crazy to say he was better.

Henderson hit . 279/ .401/ .419 OPS+ 127. 60th all-time in OBP, but his other stats are mediocre compared to those players. He wasn't an outstanding defensive player. He is the greatest base stealer of all-time, but behind all those guys mentioned on all-time lists.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by rats60

He is the greatest base stealer of all-time, but behind all those guys mentioned on all-time lists.

WPA seems like a decent measuring stick. Rickey is ranked #16, behind most of the top-tier greats mentioned (Ruth, Williams, Mays, Aaron, Mantle, Musial and Cobb) but ahead of DiMaggio and Clemente.

[D. Bergin]

Nice tribute to Henderson on The Ringer site.

https://theringer.com/2024/12/22/mlb...land-athletics

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Nice tribute to Henderson on The Ringer site.

https://theringer.com/2024/12/22/mlb...land-athletics

Thanks for posting. Interesting stat showing that he is the all-time leader in stolen bases both under age 30 and age 30+ and that no one else is in the top 18 on both lists.

[sports-cards-forever]

I heard that Rickey had the highest WAR since 1940 of any player other than A-Rod and Bonds. No steroid accusations with Rickey.

[Kzoo]

Another fun Rickey stat..... he had a slightly higher success rate at stealing 3rd base than 2nd base (it was roughly 81% vs. 80.5%). Not sure if he ever successfully tried stealing home?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Stole home 4 times in 9 attempts.

[D. Bergin]

Rickey's very last stolen base was fittingly, him beating a pick-off attempt at 44 years old.

https://youtu.be/7HAcJ-qQfi8?si=OJsfut8PJgce3f63

[D. Bergin]

Love this quote from Maury Wills:

After Maury Wills stole 104 bases in 1962, he said, “I don’t see how I can ever come close again. The physical beating I took is more than I want to endure.” Rickey reached 100 three times in four years.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Ummm... Bench is universally regarded as the greatest Catcher of all time.

Not true:

Top Catchers - Bleacher Report

Greatest Catchers - MLB

Originally Posted by perezfan

No one would make that claim for Henderson as an outfielder.Nobody in his/her right mind would rank Henderson above Aaron, Mays, Ruth, Musial, Mantle, DiMaggio, Williams, Cobb, Clemente and many others. Ridiculous argument.

"Right mind"? "Ridiculous"? If you're not trying to provoke hostility, you might think twice before using inflammatory terms.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kzoo

Another fun Rickey stat..... he had a slightly higher success rate at stealing 3rd base than 2nd base (it was roughly 81% vs. 80.5%). Not sure if he ever successfully tried stealing home?

I wonder if that's generally true? Logically, one could posit that the much better lead/jump one can get off second base offsets the shorter throwing distance. But i don't know.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Not true:

Top Catchers - Bleacher Report

Greatest Catchers - MLB



"Right mind"? "Ridiculous"? If you're not trying to provoke hostility, you might think twice before using inflammatory terms.

I am not saying they don't exist, but I've never seen a statistically based argument that Berra was better than Bench. That argument always feels driven by nostalgia/romantic notions about intangibles etc.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Kutcher55

He went to quite a few teams. Just struck me as a mercenary me first type....

Yeah, I wish he'd just stayed with the Oakland Athletics through at least the 2002 season and then perhaps closed out his career in the other League with the New York Mets or somebody. Clearly he didn't need the money, e.g. not cashing his $1 million bonus cheque from the Yankees. Playing musical chairs invariably detracts from a player's legacy.

Still, these records are something with which it's nearly impossible to argue:

Career Runs - 2295
Career Stolen Bases - 1406 (50% ahead of Lou Brock in second place)
Career Unintentional Walks - 2129

Single Season Stolen Bases - 130

Here's a good write-up of Ricky's achievements;

Man of Steal - FOX Sports

I like the one where he had zero At-Bats in a game yet stole five bases and four runs.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am not saying they don't exist, but I've never seen a statistically based argument that Berra was better than Bench. That argument always feels driven by nostalgia/romantic notions about intangibles etc.

I'd rate Johnny Bench well ahead of Yogi Berra as well. But Perezfan said "universal". My underlying objection was to Perezfan's extreme choice of words when responding to my post.

[jingram058]

I stay away from "the greatest ever" statements and discussions because it's purely subjective; opinion based. In Rickey Henderson's case, there is no argument. When it comes to base stealing, he's hands down the greatest ever. And base stealing would appear to be a lost art in today's game.